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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials, Round 2

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Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#401 - 2013-06-27 21:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Shepard Wong Ogeko
Wait, so the special bays are a fixed size? Which mean you can fit a huge amount of specific items, and then fit a tank, warp core stabilizers, nanofibers and stuff in the lows. And no need for cargo rigs either.


Wow, that makes the specialized hauler flat out better than everything else, so long as you are either hauling ore, minerals or planet stuff.


That makes Gallente flat out overpowered with biggest cargo and room in mids, lows and rigs for stuff to make it more survivable. The 'balance' is restricted cargo holds, but Gallente get 3 ships with the 3 most common materials to transport in bulk.


No wonder everyone is loving this idea. Train just 1 level of Gallente Industrial, and you get 3 ships that can haul more ore/minerals/PI than anything else with low slots full of warp core stabilizers and agility mods.


edit;

Not sure on the whole "just train Gal Indy to 1" thing. The ships do have a special bay size bonus, but the breakdown doesn't have base / max, so it looks like it's fixed at over 40,000. Still makes them both biggest hold and most survivable once fitted.
Cerlestes
Veldspar Trading Company.
Veldspar Trading Alliance.
#402 - 2013-06-27 21:41:00 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

That makes Gallente flat out overpowered with biggest cargo and room in mids, lows and rigs for stuff to make it more survivable. The 'balance' is restricted cargo holds, but Gallente get 3 ships with the 3 most common materials to transport in bulk.


Gallente has always been overpowered in terms of hauling. They're just a race that likes hauling vOv
Endeavour Starfleet
#403 - 2013-06-27 21:45:10 UTC
You only think its overpowered because you are think of these ships like they are normal haulers instead of specialized ships meant for ONE task. You simply don't understand how they are balanced in my opinion.

Yeah it means noobs have a far better chance now of getting into nullsec and actually being able to do something without training into ships that are not meant for the jobs they end up doing like freighters. And you don't like that do you?

Only a few whiners who in my opinion never had to spend hours hauling back a hauler spawn. Never had to use a crap ship to do PI. Always had a corp or alliance freighter or orca on call to haul back cans of ore. Those are the whiners who simply do not get that these are SPECIALIZED ships and that the other haulers are for DIFFERENT benefits. Tho in my opinion it's more that some of the advantage of being a large alliance that has very detailed logistics is geting dialed back now that newer players have a far better chance to be relevant.

Get over yourselves.
Adunh Slavy
#404 - 2013-06-27 21:46:10 UTC
So, how long till someone stuffs their mineral hauler full? One hold of pyer is in the tornado price range.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Endeavour Starfleet
#405 - 2013-06-27 21:51:33 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
So, how long till someone stuffs their mineral hauler full? One hold of pyer is in the tornado price range.


If a person is silly enough to actually do that in hisec. They are going to learn real fast why that is a bad idea.

BTW in B4 "NERF TORNADO NAO!"
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#406 - 2013-06-27 22:15:22 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

Only a few whiners who in my opinion never had to spend hours hauling back a hauler spawn. Never had to use a crap ship to do PI.



Been there, done that. Hauler spawns, 5 PI characters, manufacturing. I'm a space trucking nerd living full time in nullsec.

I was hoping the Industrial rebalance would do more to add variety in terms of bigger cargo space and more survivability. Maybe some other abilities so that they get used for more than just 'warp to 0'.


This isn't balance. It is a massive buff to people who want to haul those specific items, and it is all in Gallente Industrial. Everyone else is just more of the same small/fast and big/slow.
Nullshadow
Vacancy Pulse
#407 - 2013-06-27 22:28:30 UTC
I will be grinning from ear to ear if we finally get the "missing" hauler hulls filled in for Caldari and Amarr in a year or two and they turn out to be the specialized POS fuel/moon goo/isotope/ship hauling hulls everyone is asking for... and everyone starts complaining about how terrible that is and how you have to crosstrain into those or you'll be useless, etc.

I don't expect it, but with this precedent set it starts looking possible.
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#408 - 2013-06-27 22:33:47 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Honestly I want a special amarr hauler that can hold 1,000,000 m3 of livestock.

Because slaves are big at 5 m3 each, and I need space to move all my exotic dancers in one shot.

I second this. I will become a very rich man if there is a specialized slave moving hauler. Seriously. You Curse residents know what I'm talking about.

Bokononist

 
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#409 - 2013-06-27 22:39:34 UTC
Ellahan Vhektor wrote:
if gall an min get "special ships " so should amarr and caldari anything else would be unbalanced and as far as i can remember this was about ship balancing and this would be an unbalancing i really wanted a badger mark 3,4 and 5 too anything else would be unfair plus a badger mk5 would be awesome


Having some reasons to cross train occasionally is a good thing.
Eladaris
Indefinite.
#410 - 2013-06-27 22:59:21 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
On thing I was wondering though, wouldn't it be a better idea to move the itty 2,3,4 and hoarder to ORE? People would still have to train another skill, but now they seem to have unique roles. Ore could buy/steal the plans to the ships. But it's just a thought for storyline.


Technically everyone already has Gal. Indy trained... no? Post the Itty V skill req. removal I can't imagine many people who don't have it trained. And if they moved it to Ore, you'd have a WHOLE RAFT of people who'd magically get new SP. Maybe that's why people have been screaming for it? Except, CCP would probably have to announce the swap half a year in advance (they did that for Destroyers / BC's) and we'd be stuck twiddling our thumbs until then.

I'm fine with this solution. It's tidier. I would like to see new T2 variants though. POS Module bays, POS Fuel bays, etc. The current T1 indy's carry standard newbie stuff, but a hauler for a the space rich to haul more advanced stuff would be keen.

Elder Ozzian wrote:
How about fuel ? What ship I am supposed to use for hauling...
1. Jump fuel,
2. Pos fuel,
3. Siege/Triage/Industrial Core fuel?


Yup, 'dat.

Abus Finkel wrote:
I see no reason for anyone to train anything other than Gallente industrials if this goes through. Why use any other races if Gallente can do the same plus much more.


Funny notion, you can train all four races to IV, in about the same time you train Gal. to V... and reap ALL the benefits of all the races. It's not like everyone trains one Indy to V and leaves the others completely untrained.

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
That makes Gallente flat out overpowered with biggest cargo and room in mids, lows and rigs for stuff to make it more survivable. The 'balance' is restricted cargo holds, but Gallente get 3 ships with the 3 most common materials to transport in bulk.

No wonder everyone is loving this idea. Train just 1 level of Gallente Industrial, and you get 3 ships that can haul more ore/minerals/PI than anything else with low slots full of warp core stabilizers and agility mods.


Train it to IV, and when you need to haul your specific thing you can break out that specific ship and haul that specific thing. Most pilots can do that in 3-4 days without having to break the bank on an Indy V skill. It gives folks a reason to cross-train. Anyone looking for a max hauler isn't going to train Gal. to V, they'll train whatever race offers what they need, and then train Gal. Indy to IV and buy whichever of the specialized bays offer what they need.
Endeavour Starfleet
#411 - 2013-06-27 23:12:23 UTC
Nullshadow wrote:
I will be grinning from ear to ear if we finally get the "missing" hauler hulls filled in for Caldari and Amarr in a year or two and they turn out to be the specialized POS fuel/moon goo/isotope/ship hauling hulls everyone is asking for... and everyone starts complaining about how terrible that is and how you have to crosstrain into those or you'll be useless, etc.

I don't expect it, but with this precedent set it starts looking possible.


Personally I hope that they make a Tech 2 rebalance that combines POS and Capital ship tending into one hold with a very good sized bay. I am not quite sure if doing it with T1 is the best idea in the world but hopefully CCP can share their thoughts on that later on.

But yes crosstraining. I love how people that are likely on ship and combat training attributes with implants are complaining about having to training into what Gal III? The change to 10 percent harms newer players so thats why I am personally against that change. Yet people complaining about having to do a TINY amount of crosstraining is beyond silly. A little time lost on their current training plan is nothing to time lost for a noob with his first Venture.

Now I suspect that in the far future these hull will be moved to ORE. And that ORE will have a full lineup of HIGHLY specialized one task ships for the game. But that is well after many things that need to be fixed and rebalanced first and for now. These new ships will solve quite a few issues that keeps newer players and corps out of nullsec.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#412 - 2013-06-27 23:18:25 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
These new ships will solve quite a few issues that keeps newer players and corps out of nullsec.


It does nothing really noteworthy for people in nullsec. These ships will still die 10 seconds after landing in a bubble.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#413 - 2013-06-27 23:25:35 UTC
Abus Finkel wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Abus Finkel wrote:
I see no reason for anyone to train anything other than Gallente industrials if this goes through. Why use any other races if Gallente can do the same plus much more.


For hauling needs outside of the special bays you will generally get better performance from options other than Gallente.

For a new player they can spend around 23d 16h to get Gallente Industrial V and get
37152m3 general purpose cargo
64500m3 minerals
67500m3 PI
63000m3 Ore

Or they can spend the same time getting for example Amarr Industrial V and get
2049m3 more general purpose cargo
25299m3 less minerals
28299m3 less PI
23799m3 less Ore

Choosing anything other than Gallente seems like a waste of time to me.

This is why they will need to release new racial industrials to transport various materials sometime in the future.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#414 - 2013-06-27 23:27:03 UTC
Eladaris wrote:
Funny notion, you can train all four races to IV, in about the same time you train Gal. to V... and reap ALL the benefits of all the races.
What benefits from the other races? Gallente is the only winner here.
Eladaris wrote:
It's not like everyone trains one Indy to V and leaves the others completely untrained.
This is exactly what people do, why would anyone want to be able to fly more than one race's industrial when they're all supposed to do the same thing?
Eladaris
Indefinite.
#415 - 2013-06-27 23:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Eladaris
Tiber Ibis wrote:
Abus Finkel wrote:
Choosing anything other than Gallente seems like a waste of time to me.

This is why they will need to release new racial industrials to transport various materials sometime in the future.

If you really want more homogenization, please read the first thread with 30+ pages of people screaming about not wanting homogenization.

I hope they release T2 hauler's with specialized bays for special products (Fuel, POS modules, etc), but I hope they take their sweet time doing it, because those ships have hefty entry requirements and they would be contingent upon properly balanced and useful DST's.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#416 - 2013-06-27 23:30:47 UTC
Tiber Ibis wrote:
This is why they will need to release new racial industrials to transport various materials sometime in the future.
That's the problem. With this "re-balance" move they are effectively creating a larger imbalance than what we have now, and rather than make a simple fix to improve the imbalance, they are creating a pretty big gap between the races that will require huge efforts from the design and art group to create 8 new ships to fill.

They should have stuck with their simple fix and moved on to bigger and better projects, like HACs and Command Ships.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#417 - 2013-06-27 23:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Pierce
Eladaris wrote:
If you really want more homogenization, please read the first thread with 30+ pages of people screaming about not wanting homogenization..

The first thread went 42 pages in 7 days before Rise announced he would redo the whole thing.
This thread is at 21 pages in 1 day; if the number of pages of people calling foul is any indication of how good a rebalance is then we should just go back to the first idea.

edit; add to that the fact that a good chunk of the posts in the other thread were complaining about the mammoth model not sticking around as top minmatar hauler, which we don't have here.
Eladaris
Indefinite.
#418 - 2013-06-27 23:39:53 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
Eladaris wrote:
Funny notion, you can train all four races to IV, in about the same time you train Gal. to V... and reap ALL the benefits of all the races.
What benefits from the other races? Gallente is the only winner here.
Eladaris wrote:
It's not like everyone trains one Indy to V and leaves the others completely untrained.
This is exactly what people do, why would anyone want to be able to fly more than one race's industrial when they're all supposed to do the same thing?

We don't have homogenization in any other class of ship in Eve. Why should we have it in haulers? I personally trained one race's indy to V (Minnie) for their BR. I wanted a faster aligning freighter, because who needs all that cargo space if it takes forever to get there. The cargo bays were adequate, and the ships were fast.

I trained everything else to 3, because hell, what's two days to unlock a ton of other ship options. Now that I can fly everything with a I in the skill, you could just do that. Maybe someday you'll find a Itty V full of stuff somewhere in space, and want to 'borrow' it. Being able to actually hop in the pilot's seat sort of makes sense. Heck, some pilots have probably unlocked the Orca on the rare chance they find a solo miner dual-shipping an Orca / Hulk back in the day.

In lots of cases it's as cut and dried as "This ship hauls the most, so it wins". In that case it's another Amarr Victory. In some cases it's a whole fleet of ships to carry some things better, so it's another Gall. win, but they've always been the top haulers. And some people have quirky weird needs, like the ability to fit a launcher and a cloak on their BR.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#419 - 2013-06-27 23:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiber Ibis
I like the changes but Gallente seem a little too good. I like the direction you went with Caldari having the best base stats, and the amarr being the kings of potential capacity. I think Caldari should at least match Gallente though in terms of the max potential capacity. And then Minmatar are a little lacking with the lowest capacity, and also an ammo/charge bay.

I don't know if this is because I haven't thought this through thoroughly, and their may be some awesome way to get great mineral capacity by manufacturing ammo and then refining it at destination. But then it seems if there was that slight meta edge you just nerfed it anyway by making the ship much larger than the others to transport. Why not give the minmatar a module bay, or something a little more useful.

(EDIT) Better yet, why not make all the gallente industrials specialised in some way. They would be the best in their area at transporting the largest amount, although the price you pay is a MUCH smaller standard bay. I really like the direction you are going here Rise, but I think it just needs another look at to get the balance right.
Ellahan Vhektor
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#420 - 2013-06-28 00:01:25 UTC
dont care just give me a bager mk5 plz

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