Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I see many want specialised ships moved to ORE but I think that would be bad decision. Even if art department had time to do it I would be against it. If art had time I’d much rather have ore ships redistributed to empires with new models and skins made for those ships as to be stylistically appropriate for they new resident empire.

Entire line of ORE ships makes no sense both form game design or form IC flavour POW. Looking form RP perspective each empire has separate racial skill line because they had unique parallel histories of development with their unlike approach to design and technology. Even pirate corps derive their ships from those basic 4 ship design traditions. And that is good , it makes sense form story perspective and game design perspective. Chasing your preferred empire line actually brings consequence and shapes the way you fight and live in New Eden. I primary fly Minamtar combat ships and that limits what I can do and how well can can do it in PvP and PvE. Giving people opportunity to make that choice is what people want when they scream against homogenisation.

But then we have this sour thumb, this obnoxious Gallente corp that thinks it special snowflake, that thinks it's better and that wants its on special separate line differentiated form all of four traditional lines. Why would ORE of all NPC corps and pirates in New Eden get this special treatment? It is silly.

Even aside from RP problems ORE line is also inferior game design because when it comes to selecting skill for optimal resource gathering ship it removes all choice. If you want to mine gas, or ice, or minerals, or collect salvage and loot, or provide mining boosts, or if you want to do it in tanky gank safe way, or lazy “i don’t want to warp back to station every 5 min”way, or maximum efficiency “hulk” way, answer is always the same: “train the ******* ORE ships”. This is clear contrast form way combat and transport ships where done in empire lines where you have to actually chose the way you want to do things, and those choices mater. But when it comes to resource collection answer is always the same boring old ORE line. Meh.

Now I do realise that however ****** was that decision to pile up all resource gathering ships in single line, now it is too late to change. However I think it is stupid to compound on this past dumb decision by adding additional ships in already bloated ORE line at the expanse of diversity in empire ship lines.

So TL:DR is I’m glad you don't have time to move Iterions 2-4 to ORE line because ORE skill line is **** game design that should burn in fire.

It's basically a choice. We can have the 2 basic cargo lines, with the extra hulls just sort of filler in their respective trees, or we can have what has been proposed with the specialized holds, which is much better IMO. They aren't going to move the hulls to other lines, remove the hulls, or add hulls into the other lines. This is what there is.

Everyone seems to continually lose sight of this. You can't boil haulers (or any ship, really) down to one metric, and I'm not even talking about things like the Battle Badger. Align times, top speed, EHP, etc. all must be considered. I know it's convenient to break it down to a stat that you can point back to and yell "Hey! Look at this here! These ships do more!" But you're losing the fact that the Badger I, for example, has the most cargo room of the swift haulers. Or that a Bestower can hold 50,000 of ANY cargo with GSCs. Badger Mark II can carry 7300 and leave the lows free for nanos. It's not a black-and-white matter like so many people try to argue it is. I'm sorry, but it simply isn't.

I guess we're going to have to disagree on this one. it has 50k m3 ore bay, it costs 750m-800m isk. the new T1 industrials have a 50km3 orebay for under 1m. the Mackinaw has an 35km3 ore bay. Max cargo fit the orca can carry about 180km3 of ore (92k+40k+50k) [level V char] - sure that is ok, but i still think the ratio between mackinaw bay sizes and orca bay (or Rorq) bay is insufficient.

Muuuch better. Variety, delicious variety. It's nice to move away from the OMG Roles conversation to just nitpicking!

Edit: removing embarassing misreading of stats!!!

The mineral bay is a bit odd. I'm not sure I see what role it's filling. Maybe nullsec production POS resupply? Usually, at the point minerals are transported, the necessary volumes for real production are in the freighter load range. Maybe a better new player entry point for small scale minerals trading? This one was a bit of mystery to me. It's not a bad thing, just odd.

The ammo bay was also a bit odd. I have trouble picturing this ship's role. Battlefield resupply seems unlikely (who wouldn't immediately pop it?). Entry level ammo production and haul to sale seems like a possibility, but I'm not sure that justifies a whole role dedicated to it. This totally makes sense for T2 haulers that might be supporting a black ops fleet, but unless there's going to be a third T2 transport based on the hoarder, this hold type's best use will never see the light of day. Again, not bad, but I'm not seeing the role it's filling. Maybe it's ammo for the high slots? :P As if the hoarder would live long enough!

All in all, much, much better than round 1. MUCH. The one thing I think in general could improve these sorts of rebalance threads is a little more information from the CCP side about the VISION you have for ships. When you make these changes, what are you thinking about it's role? How do you see it being used? That way when these monster threads start growing, the discussion is focused on whether or not the changes fit the vision or whether the vision fits how the ships are really used by the playerbase.

So, what was your vision for the ammo and minerals bays? And, as I asked in the previous thread, what lead to the decision to make the Amarr ships the big cargo carriers? I'm not saying Itty V should remain the king, but I would like to know what the reasoning was for the change (I have 5's in every hauling ship in EVE, so it doesn't affect me one way or the other). I'd also like to know if that reasoning will extend to freighters.

What are you fitting that requires so much CPU? All the industrials had obnoxious CPU, it was more or less impossible to use it all in an actual fit. As it stands you can fit a full tank on a mammoth and still have over 100 spare CPU, so I'm not seeing where the CPU nerf is actually going to hinder the mammoth at all.

I didnt really word my comment correctly at all in hind sight.
Your right its not the CPU that is the issue its the PWG value where the rest were given a buff the Mammoth wasn't when it needs one so it can fit a 10MN Micro Warp Drive not a 1MN which is frigate size so it can employ the MWD/ cloak trick to actually help it not to be ganked.
Apologies for not wording my first statement correctly.

WHAAAAAT???????

No, no, no - surely you can't mean they'll change to the Iteron V hull model? That ship is the third stupidest looking hull in all of EVE, behind the Tristan and the Imicus. I can never figure what it most looks like - a giant, legless, space-going stick insect, or an Iteron III with an Iteron II's nose shoved up its arse.

The special edition Iteron IV's already have specialised additional cargo holds, so why should they change?

Yay!

But you still need to acknowledge the fact that the ability to haul 50k m3 of ore isn't equal to the ability to haul 50k m3 of minerals. Eitgher the 50k m3 ore bay is underpowered, or else the 50k m3 mineral bay is overpowered, and unequal power isn't in the spirit of tiercide. Personally I think you ought to enlarge the ore bay, since as someone else (Mara?) pointed out, the ability to undock with 50k m3 of minerals is sweet, sweet potentail for suciide gank, but if you want to go conservative, you can make the mineral bay smaller instead for starters, then change your mind in some months.

Other than that, I'm absolutely ecstatic about these changes! Great job!!

This nerf (tho slight I admit) to the specialized bays for newer players is saddening.

Let me start by saying I LOVE the new line of specialized haulers. They are going to make living out in nullsec far easier and more sustainable for smaller corps and alliances that don't have 50 orcas on call. Not to mention it means more incentive to recruit newer players to aid in hauling ore and other activities.

The thing is I disagre with that poster's idea for 10 percent and reduced base and I disagree with it being implemented because it is another trend that harms newer players and forces them to spend valuable time training (likely off attributes) into an industral line that they may not make use of other than specialized hauling of one thing.

Yes it is slight. And right now it matters very little. What I worry about is a trend. Some in this topic have clearly stated they think these ships are OP (Despite the fact that they are specialized) You listened to one of those and I worry about what tomorrow will bring. I don't want these awesome ships suffering a slow death by a thousand nerfs that Drake pilots got because they dared train into the most balanced ship in the midline.

So are you completely happy with this? Are you pretty sure you are not going to be tempted to nerf them any further? This change already nearly pushed the idea into better for Ore industrial skill because then atleast that skill will help newer players get into a Noctis.