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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials, Round 2

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Fidelas Constans
#301 - 2013-06-27 09:43:26 UTC
Thing with specialised bays is say you have 3 or 4 different loads to take which would require 3 or 4 different specialised bays, you would have to do 3 or 4 trips, I am assuming here that if you have a specialised bay then you can put nothing else in that bay accept for the goods that it specialises in, nor are you able to put those items in a regular bay. because if you are, there is no need to a specialised one right?

There are too many industrials anyway, scrap most of them, and introduce something new. Stop trying to find slightly different roles for the current ships to fit into, just out them.
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#302 - 2013-06-27 09:49:11 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Petrified wrote:
The Orca did an excellent job of drawing attention to the disparity between Industrials and Freighters. The solution is not to nerf the Orca but make the easier to train to Industrials better.

Most people think that hold capacity is the only factor to choose indy ship. Also they are not completely right, but cargo is important indeed. Orca has a big one - so it performs very good as an indy ship. But it was designed as a mining support! And in fact, it excels in that role as well!!1 On top of that, it's the ship of choice for WH collapsing. Combined, it means overpowered ship that everyone wants.

Some time before, it was balanced with skill prerequisites. "Thanks" to tiercide, this is no more. If it's not balanced now, then in 3 or so years CCP recognizes that and we'll get another 50-pages thread full of "REIMBURSE MY SP!!!"



Honestly, I can't imagine what kind of mining support ship would not have a large hold. Particularly a mining support ship that is meant to be in the belt and gathering/consolidating from multiple mining vessels. Perhaps diminishing the general cargo hold in favor of expanding the Ore hold would make the best sense, but why diminish a very useful and diverse vessel because one feels it is overpowered?

I might enjoy my Orca, but there are things the Orca is not good at that T2 Industrials excel at (get past a gate camp solo in low sec in an Orca, I dare you).

I think ships as a whole should be more diversified and more flexible in their overall applications. Seeing a narrowing of the vessels into specific roles is more or less what T2 struck me as being. Though, the newer norm of more specialized T1 with T2 being the stronger big brother is not unattractive as well.

As for Orca SP: I have a considerable amount of SP and I have yet to find any of it wasted - even if I never fly an Orca again, there are usable skills that are applicable elsewhere. Diversification and the ability to adapt is crucial to surviving in EVE. Most people who seriously grip about changes that 'ruin' what they can do are those who specialized in one area to the near exclusion of others.

I'll stand by what I said before: Industrials need a power boost to make them comparable rather than nerfing the Gold standard Industrials should be built around. We are already seeing hints of this buff by specialized bays being given to the extra Gallente and Minmatar ships. It is a step in the right direction.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Goonswarm Federation
#303 - 2013-06-27 09:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
I wrote some words:

http://thelazypilot.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/much-better/

TL;DR

The cargo for the ORE looks a little small having in mind ore/ice takes lots of space, give it more 10k so: ore=60, PI=55, Minerals=50

Change the names of the Badger Mark II, the Iterons I, II, III and IV. For the Iteron Mark V just called it Iteron.

Drop the ammo bay version and do this:

  • ITERON MARK II – Mineral Bay
  • ITERON MARK III – Ice Bay
  • ITERON MARK IV – Ore and Gas Bay
  • HOARDER – PI Commodities Bay


Move the 4 specialized ships to the Interbus creating future options for more ships and who knows t2 versions of them.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

#304 - 2013-06-27 09:51:16 UTC
I like the latest proposed changes. When might we expect to see them?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#305 - 2013-06-27 09:57:18 UTC
Vartan Sarkisian wrote:

There are too many industrials anyway, scrap most of them, and introduce something new. Stop trying to find slightly different roles for the current ships to fit into, just out them.


The main issue with that is people grow attached to their ships - even if they have not flown them in 5-6 years. Plus the amount of artwork that you are essentially discarding. Plus, the "too many industrials" is really only applicable to one race: Gallente. Minmatar come close only with 3 to the Gallente 5 (not including the special editions which are merely different paint jobs)

Perhaps if you defined "something new" because the specialized holds in these indies are certainly new to them.

I am generally of the opinion that there are too few ship models in the game, but I guess their Art Department has limitations to work around.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

#306 - 2013-06-27 10:08:39 UTC
Yay! Most of this is completely awesome, but 2 things:

1. Please consider giving a larger cargo/bay capacity bonus than 5%/lvl, so as to give a greater reward to those who take the time to train the racial industrial skill(z) to 5. Such as 7.5%/level. Maybe in exchange for lowering base cargo/bay capacity in proportion?

The current bonus creates a very strong temptation to just train the skill to 1, and then stop, and never train any further, because as soon as you have the skill trained to 1, you can fly the ship and thus enjoy the majority of benefits, and +5% cargo per skill level isn't hugely attractive.

CCP Rise wrote:

ITERON MARK IV - Ore Bay (Ore includes Gas, Ice, and Mineral Ore)

Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Ore Hold Capacity
+5% Max Velocity

Slot layout: 2H(+1), 4M, 4L(+1); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 120 PWG(+50), 260 CPU(-490)
Cargo (capacity / Ore Hold Capacity): 550(-4700) / 50000
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 590(+355) / 710(-306) / 950(-223)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .94(-.06) / 12975000(+1725000) / 16.9(+1.3)
Signature radius: 205(-15)
Warp speed: 4.5au/s


2. Given how enormously bulky ore is, I really think you ought to increase the base ore bay capacity. Maybe increase to 65k m3, and increase the bonus to 10%/lvl, whereas the other cargo capacity bonuses only get increased to 7.5%/lvl?

I just think that there's insufficient oomph here. The mineral, charges and PI versions are fine, but this one... not so much. I really think it needs a buff.
#307 - 2013-06-27 10:11:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
First page all positive, I'm outta here Cool


Ok, here's a negative: Why can't we have LOW slot modules to give bonuse sto specialzied bay capacity? Or at least RIGs to do so? You introduced specialzied bays year ago, but the module/rig side of things still hasn't caught up with this development.
#308 - 2013-06-27 10:26:56 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Yay! Most of this is completely awesome, but 2 things:

2. Given how enormously bulky ore is, I really think you ought to increase the base ore bay capacity. Maybe increase to 65k m3, and increase the bonus to 10%/lvl, whereas the other cargo capacity bonuses only get increased to 7.5%/lvl?

I just think that there's insufficient oomph here. The mineral, charges and PI versions are fine, but this one... not so much. I really think it needs a buff.


Find me another T1 hauler with less cost and lower travel time than an Orca that can carry more than 50k of ore in one trip.
Gallente Federation
#309 - 2013-06-27 10:37:29 UTC
Those who take hauling will take gallente industrial to level 4. Those skills increase the bay by 10,000 m3.

So yea, its 3 days.

Yaay!!!!

Caldari State
#310 - 2013-06-27 11:05:43 UTC
Vartan Sarkisian wrote:
..., I am assuming here that if you have a specialised bay then you can put nothing else in that bay accept for the goods that it specialises in, nor are you able to put those items in a regular bay. because if you are, there is no need to a specialised one right?

Of course you can put those items in regular bays too, silly you.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

#311 - 2013-06-27 11:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cerlestes
Salpad wrote:
1. Please consider giving a larger cargo/bay capacity bonus than 5%/lvl, so as to give a greater reward to those who take the time to train the racial industrial skill(z) to 5. Such as 7.5%/level. Maybe in exchange for lowering base cargo/bay capacity in proportion?


Gotta agree with this. The base is way too overpowered imho. Why not make it 30k m3 base with a 20% bonus per skill level?

Edit: I also must say that I don't like the specialized cargoholds too much. I understand why CCP started introducing them, but I think they break the idea of a cargo bay. I'm okay with ammo and fuel bays, but other than that I really don't like where this is going.

Here's another idea:
1. Do not specialize the cargoholds of the extra haulers, but use the small and big variants as you've proposed them.
2. Make the Gallente haulers huuuuge though (55k on the Iteron V with T2 expanders and T1 rigs) with logical increments between the marks as we have it right now, as Gallente are just the uber-race of haulers
3. Make the Minmatar haulers the fastest (with skill bonus to speed, warpspeed and agility)
4. Give Caldari and Amarr very good tanks (with skill bonus to HP)
#312 - 2013-06-27 11:22:28 UTC
Can't the NPC corporations sell their obsolete hoarder and iteron models to ORE and have them released as ORE industrial ships?

No biggie for me but it would add some flavor and balance the number of ships across the factions. This also prevents a bigger imbalance once you get to the T2 variations.
C C P Alliance
#313 - 2013-06-27 11:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Today's update:

We are going to go ahead and bump the unpacked volume on the Hoarder significantly (up to 400000) to avoid any major issues with compression. This gives it the same packed volume to cargo ratio that the Iteron V has currently.

One of the most recent posts mentions increasing the bonus per level from skills for the special bay haulers, and I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to increase the skill bonus per level for all the special bay haulers from 5% per level to 10% per level, and reduce the base bays to give basically the same potential bay size as before. This means you will still get an improvement at level 1 over any normal hauler, but you have to invest SP to make the difference quite as big. This seems especially appropriate since these ships don't have to sacrifice lows to reach the same capacity.

I talked with our story team about renaming and they are going to think about it and get back to me. As I said before, there are problems with both sides so I've just left it in their hands and will report back to you guys as soon as I know more.

As always, thanks for the feedback o/

edit: Also I want to acknowledge all the ideas around converting the special bay haulers to ORE, or any other similar solution. I completely understand where you're coming from but this simply isn't possible. It would either require an enormous investment by our art teams, which we don't feel is worthwhile, or would mean some kind of hacky re-texturing type approach, which we feel is ultimately bad for the game (we have standards okay). This is why we were originally hesitant about giving anything exciting to all 5 Iterons, we knew we didn't like where it would leave us in relation to this stuff. I'm glad that most of you seem to be able to cope with it as it stands though.

@ccp_rise

#314 - 2013-06-27 11:33:48 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
First page all positive, I'm outta here Cool

I like the new changes. First ones were good anyway, but these are definitely a lot more interesting. And I don't think it is too game breaking giving specialised roles like this as they are tier 1 industrials, so hardly end game content which required fine balance. Nice work.
#315 - 2013-06-27 11:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Eladaris
CCP Rise wrote:
As always, thanks for the feedback o/

Appreciate the updates! Setting the bays on a tier bonus makes sense to keep them less powerful at skill level I than the other hauler's at level IV. Pros and Cons. Do try to ensure that a 'bay' hauler is more powerful at IV than a generic hauler at V though, otherwise what's the point of cross-training? In other words, a bay hauler should be a better solution at one level lower training, across the board, if feasible. Simply to allow viable cross-training opportunities.

Although, I do feel the need to /facepalm at the poster's complaining that race X's tanky hauler isn't as powerful as race Y's tanky hauler. Didn't we JUST finish a thirty+ page thread complaining that not all hauler's had to be identical? It takes 3 days to train into another race's industrial to IV, and they're perfectly viable there. You can unlock a certain hull after 20-40 minutes of training time. They don't all have to be homogenized.
#316 - 2013-06-27 11:38:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloody Wench
Very well done Sir.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack

Goonswarm Federation
#317 - 2013-06-27 11:40:40 UTC
unless you move all those specialized haulers to a non racial faction this is pointless

Interbus or Ore would be ideal in terms of game lore
Goonswarm Federation
#318 - 2013-06-27 11:52:45 UTC
Specialty bays that are smaller then the max cargo hold of the largest general hauler is absolutely ******* pointless they would have to carry 1.5 to 2x as much load for them to be worthwhile at all to own.


Also itemization on general haulers since your doing it is also terrible.

There are very few ways to fit a hauler correctly and most of those include all cargo expanders in the lows. You should either change the base cargo up and fewer low slots so you have to make real decisions on why or what your fitting.
Goonswarm Federation
#319 - 2013-06-27 11:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
CCP Rise wrote:
Today's update:

edit: Also I want to acknowledge all the ideas around converting the special bay haulers to ORE, or any other similar solution. I completely understand where you're coming from but this simply isn't possible. It would either require an enormous investment by our art teams, which we don't feel is worthwhile, or would mean some kind of hacky re-texturing type approach, which we feel is ultimately bad for the game (we have standards okay). This is why we were originally hesitant about giving anything exciting to all 5 Iterons, we knew we didn't like where it would leave us in relation to this stuff. I'm glad that most of you seem to be able to cope with it as it stands though.


1 - We understand very well that the Art teams have zero time available and that changing industrial hulls is not worthwhile.

2 - We are willing to compromise with you and CCP that changing hulls will never happen.

3 - We are willing to accept these hulls like they are in other line and just have the NPC symbol changed for now.

4 - We are willing to wait for a new "non-hacky" re-texturing / paint job say 1-2 years from now, when the Art team finds time to come back to them.

Just do it right, give these ships to Interbus, compromise. We accept the art problems and what comes with them. Please just put these ships in the correct and logic place were they belong from now on.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

#320 - 2013-06-27 12:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Pupkin
Aprudena Gist wrote:
Specialty bays that are smaller then the max cargo hold of the largest general hauler is absolutely ******* pointless they would have to carry 1.5 to 2x as much load for them to be worthwhile at all to own.

No, they aren't.
1) You're forced to use all lows and rigs to reach max cargohold, while on specialty boats you aren't. It would make a perfect sense to fit something for align time reduction in hisec, and tank/stabs for low and null.
2) if you open your eyes and see the industrial skill bonuses correctly, you'll realize they aren't smaller at all.

ED: Just noticed you're a goon. Figures.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

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