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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Author
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
#861 - 2013-06-25 19:00:28 UTC
Not sure this is the right thread but it's concerning Hauling so lets put it here...

I always loved the container ships. Be it RL container ships or some space versions...

For EVE I imagined a ship like that few times... mainly for ore/mineral/gas hauling... basically what I thought is having a "tug" which grabs a huge container and moves it around. Now that container can only be configured for one ore/mineral/gas type (the same way POS silos are)..
And you can connect another container to the train. With up to 8 (?) another cans. Each connected container will add mass to the ship, reducing speed, align time, warp speed. Maybe even structure as the longer the train is the more stress is pushed on it..

^ Guess it can be the ORE hauler...

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -  Arthur C. Clarke

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#862 - 2013-06-25 19:03:19 UTC
Deirdre Anethoel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
They're 35k now, that doesn't mean we can't argue for change. In fact the fact that they don't haul any more than the best t1 is a pretty strong change.


Now, I completely agree with you. They'll need a real big change to become competitive compared to orcas, though. The only prerequisite difference is price right now. Transport skill also allow you to fly in cloaky indus, though.
I was in the 100k m3 camp for a while, but having spoken to some corpmates about it, I'm not so sure a 100k m3 DST would be what I'd do with it.

I'm not really "sold" that bigger = better for DSTs anymore. Granted, I'd love a huge DST with a smaller mass than an Orca since I live in a wormhole, but I think in order to balance it out, the tank consideration would have to be lowered. Under a 100k m3 scenario, the Orca would likely have to be nerfed in its main cargo bay (which it should anyway, but sleeper loot is small, so not sure of impact) to make DSTs more attractive, but the Orca would still have it beat with tank (~230k ehp--more than a freighter wtf), SMA, ore hold, slots, ability to boost, etc. However, the fact that a mining support ship performs better than haulers that pilots spend their precious sp training on, specializing in the art of getting goods from one point to the next is appalling.

So I don't know where exactly I stand on DSTs now. I agree there should be a transport that can survive in deep space. Does that mean a truly armored transport? A ship that can defend (and attack) off its attackers? Maybe something with a modest hold (25-30k), big tank (or active tanked but useful) and ability to fight and defend itself? I think the 100k m3 is good niche for *some* future hauler, and there is a need for a sub-freighter-but-bigger-than-a-T1-hold that IS NOT a mining support ship or 6.5 billion Jump Freighter.

But this raises a few questions: Does that really fit with the skills a hauler is likely to have? Does that matter? Should haulers carrying stuff have to use an escort? Does that promote social play or a dual account webber? Aside from these questions, I don't know if a bigger DST really fixes the problems, given that freighters are there and do hold a lot. Maybe it makes more sense now that racial Industrial V is no longer a prerequirement on freighters, and T2 haulers and freighters have a slightly divergent skill train.

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Dave Stark
#863 - 2013-06-25 19:05:34 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
"It's primary role," as you're funny to point out, takes into account MANY factors,


nope.

it's ability to be a large cargo hauler is defined by it's large cargo, and that's it. there are no complexities to "how much can i haul?" other than "how big is my cargo?"

stop trying to pick a fight with me, i don't want to spend my free time correcting you, or even bothering to read the rest of your post.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#864 - 2013-06-25 19:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Andendare
Dave Stark wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
"It's primary role," as you're funny to point out, takes into account MANY factors,


nope.

it's ability to be a large cargo hauler is defined by it's large cargo, and that's it. there are no complexities to "how much can i haul?" other than "how big is my cargo?"

stop trying to pick a fight with me, i don't want to spend my free time correcting you, or even bothering to read the rest of your post.
I want to play the Eve you do where everything can be broken down into one dimension. It's apparent that you're not going to get off your unrealistic point-of-view that one one stat matters to anything in the game. But like I said, tell me what server you're on, because on TQ, nothing is one dimensional.

edit: And besides, under your singular logic, nobody would ever fly anything other than a Charon. But guess what: people do. They fly Fenrirs for their align time despite being the smallest, Obelisks for their sizable tank, and Providences for being a good mix of the stats. But that's ok, everyone only looks at one stat: cargo space. That's why everyone is in all those Charons only. Oh wait, they're not.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Dave Stark
#865 - 2013-06-25 19:26:17 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
And besides, under your ridiculous logic, nobody would ever fly anything other than a Charon. But guess what: people do. They fly Fenrirs for their align time despite being the smallest, Obelisks for their sizable tank, and Providences for being a good mix of the stats. But that's ok, everyone only looks at one stat: cargo space. That's why everyone is in all those Charons only. Oh wait, they're not.


that's because freighters have one ship per race unlike industrials. therefore if you're not after the cargo space then the mammoth/itty V/bestower/badger mk2 aren't the correct ship for you anyway. unlike freighters where you just have "i can fly x freighter, or nothing" people can't really pick a freighter based on their needs without cross training. unlike t1 industrials.

people have tried to compare this situation to freighters already, and it's a flawed argument because you aren't comparing like for like. a 1 ship per race type of ships can not be compared to multiple ships per race type of ships.

between roles, i think rise has done a good job balancing the ships, but not within roles w.r.t. large cargo ships. cargo space is a very important factor so having a "lots of cargo at the expense of the rest of the stats" vs a "passable cargo space but lots of other goodies" type of ship is great, imo.

however, within the ship type the large cargo haulers aren't balanced because of what i pointed out.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#866 - 2013-06-25 19:35:53 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Deirdre Anethoel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
They're 35k now, that doesn't mean we can't argue for change. In fact the fact that they don't haul any more than the best t1 is a pretty strong change.


Now, I completely agree with you. They'll need a real big change to become competitive compared to orcas, though. The only prerequisite difference is price right now. Transport skill also allow you to fly in cloaky indus, though.
I was in the 100k m3 camp for a while, but having spoken to some corpmates about it, I'm not so sure a 100k m3 DST would be what I'd do with it.

I'm not really "sold" that bigger = better for DSTs anymore. Granted, I'd love a huge DST with a smaller mass than an Orca since I live in a wormhole, but I think in order to balance it out, the tank consideration would have to be lowered. Under a 100k m3 scenario, the Orca would likely have to be nerfed in its main cargo bay (which it should anyway, but sleeper loot is small, so not sure of impact) to make DSTs more attractive, but the Orca would still have it beat with tank (~230k ehp--more than a freighter wtf), SMA, ore hold, slots, ability to boost, etc. However, the fact that a mining support ship performs better than haulers that pilots spend their precious sp training on, specializing in the art of getting goods from one point to the next is appalling.

So I don't know where exactly I stand on DSTs now. I agree there should be a transport that can survive in deep space. Does that mean a truly armored transport? A ship that can defend (and attack) off its attackers? Maybe something with a modest hold (25-30k), big tank (or active tanked but useful) and ability to fight and defend itself? I think the 100k m3 is good niche for *some* future hauler, and there is a need for a sub-freighter-but-bigger-than-a-T1-hold that IS NOT a mining support ship or 6.5 billion Jump Freighter.

But this raises a few questions: Does that really fit with the skills a hauler is likely to have? Does that matter? Should haulers carrying stuff have to use an escort? Does that promote social play or a dual account webber? Aside from these questions, I don't know if a bigger DST really fixes the problems, given that freighters are there and do hold a lot. Maybe it makes more sense now that racial Industrial V is no longer a prerequirement on freighters, and T2 haulers and freighters have a slightly divergent skill train.


The other alternative is to make DSTs a hauler that can actually be escorted in a meaningful way, which basically means giving them Commandship class EHP, specifically resists.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#867 - 2013-06-25 19:37:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

I spent most of the weekend going over feedback and talking about this issue with a lot of different folks (CSM, Devs, and random folks from the community via stream chats or private convos), and I want to touch base with you about where I'm at.

First, I want to dispel any ideas about the level of investment in this project by myself or anyone else here. Like any other part of the game, we want this to be as good as it can be. The rebalance in the OP was not the result of some lazy afternoon where we dismissively decided what to do. It was the result of a fairly lengthy process of negotiating within the balance team about what industrial balance should really consist of. We started with fairly lofty ideas and slowly backed into a more conservative solution, both because of concerns about equality relating to the extra industrials and also because of knowing that more high level industry work was coming down the pipe that could impact our needs in the near future. Moral of the story: we care about this a lot, and want to do it right.

So, whats the plan? Although I am a bit nervous about backlash coming from the other direction, I want to take your feedback and try to do something that makes you guys more excited. As far as I can tell, there's a few common concerns/desires that you're hoping for with these ships:

  • Make them all useful
  • Make them as different from each other as possible
  • Add new function/purpose where possible

  • Most of these could be said in different ways, but essentially it seems that in-so-far as balance allows, you want more niche applications, more character, and more differentiation. To me this seems reasonable, as long as it doesn't obligate people people to cross train for very basic needs. So, here's what we're looking at doing to address these points:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.
  • More separation between the two basic hauler types - I want to achieve this through several means including giving the faster haulers better warp time (up to 6au/tick instead of 4.5au/tick), taking a mid slot away from the cargo focused versions to highlight the tank on the others (this will partly be counter-acted by giving back the second high to the cargo versions), along with other small changes to make some of the tankier haulers stand out a bit more.
  • More quirkiness overall - I won't go into specifics right now, and it won't be anything extremely drastic, but I want to try and get each ship within a role set apart from the others as much as possible to avoid any feeling of homogenization (though I still feel that the very simplistic hauling system doesn't provide a lot of room for variation that wouldn't severely handicap some ships).

  • I'll post again within the next couple days with details, but until then I hope this will do. Finally, I want to say that I really appreciate all the feedback that was given in a polite and constructive manner, both from the CSM and the community as a whole. I hope this change will help to build some faith in our ability to take that feedback into account and make good adjustments for you guys. (I also hope it doesn't make you feel like any time you make a 30 page thread I'll do whatever you say =)

    See you soon in the OP with more details
    Fly safe

    Nice work as usual CCP Rise. Much appreciated.
    Deirdre Anethoel
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #868 - 2013-06-25 19:37:46 UTC
    Maximus Andendare wrote:
    Deirdre Anethoel wrote:
    Malcanis wrote:
    They're 35k now, that doesn't mean we can't argue for change. In fact the fact that they don't haul any more than the best t1 is a pretty strong change.


    Now, I completely agree with you. They'll need a real big change to become competitive compared to orcas, though. The only prerequisite difference is price right now. Transport skill also allow you to fly in cloaky indus, though.
    I was in the 100k m3 camp for a while, but having spoken to some corpmates about it, I'm not so sure a 100k m3 DST would be what I'd do with it.

    I'm not really "sold" that bigger = better for DSTs anymore. Granted, I'd love a huge DST with a smaller mass than an Orca since I live in a wormhole, but I think in order to balance it out, the tank consideration would have to be lowered. Under a 100k m3 scenario, the Orca would likely have to be nerfed in its main cargo bay (which it should anyway, but sleeper loot is small, so not sure of impact) to make DSTs more attractive, but the Orca would still have it beat with tank (~230k ehp--more than a freighter wtf), SMA, ore hold, slots, ability to boost, etc. However, the fact that a mining support ship performs better than haulers that pilots spend their precious sp training on, specializing in the art of getting goods from one point to the next is appalling.


    Orca should be broken in two ships, a ORE industrial heavy hauler - corp hangar, and a ORE mining command ship - corp hangar. The first one would have no ore bay, and the second one close to no standard hangar. Would be a lot healthier than having a mining command ship be the best hauling option, I agree.

    Quote:
    So I don't know where exactly I stand on DSTs now. I agree there should be a transport that can survive in deep space. Does that mean a truly armored transport? A ship that can defend (and attack) off its attackers? Maybe something with a modest hold (25-30k), big tank (or active tanked but useful) and ability to fight and defend itself? I think the 100k m3 is good niche for *some* future hauler, and there is a need for a sub-freighter-but-bigger-than-a-T1-hold that IS NOT a mining support ship or 6.5 billion Jump Freighter.


    Defending yourself, or tanking, will never save you in "deep space". The real deep space transport is the blockade runner, because the only way to defend yourself is to avoid being seen. If you can tank one guy, they'll bring 10. If you can tank 10, they'll bring 100.

    The role the current deep space transport hold is more a nearly safe space transport : decent cargo and decent passive tank make it okay for afk hauling if you haul less than the cost to suicide gank you. It's completely unsuitable with a "deep space transport". If the transport ships class have to be broken in two, I think it should be :
    - deep space / blockade runner thingy : can warp cloaky, can be bridged on covert cyno. Stealth is safety
    - quick courrier : fast, align quickly, good tank, good hold, but inferior to an orca. The important point is FAST. Because when hauling, the important point is not how much you carry. It's how much you carry per unit of time needed to do the trip. This transport should be able to hold as much as it does now, but should align quickly, move quickly (for autopilot) and and have a good haul. If races end up getting different versions with different bays, you could imagine having this one with the same particularities.

    Give ORE the 200k m3 role (by breaking down the orca in two ships, as I said). But give transport ships a way to move medium (around 30k m3) amouts of stuff through space QUICK.

    T2 haulers should do something really awesome, since they are T2 ships, not just be a small freighter (freighters are big, but they're T1 ships). Blockade runners already do admirably, but the DST are a bit left off.

    But all that should wait the T2 ships rebalance! Let's go back to T1.
    Cage Man
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #869 - 2013-06-25 19:40:51 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Maximus Andendare wrote:
    And besides, under your ridiculous logic, nobody would ever fly anything other than a Charon. But guess what: people do. They fly Fenrirs for their align time despite being the smallest, Obelisks for their sizable tank, and Providences for being a good mix of the stats. But that's ok, everyone only looks at one stat: cargo space. That's why everyone is in all those Charons only. Oh wait, they're not.


    that's because freighters have one ship per race unlike industrials. therefore if you're not after the cargo space then the mammoth/itty V/bestower/badger mk2 aren't the correct ship for you anyway. unlike freighters where you just have "i can fly x freighter, or nothing" people can't really pick a freighter based on their needs without cross training. unlike t1 industrials.

    people have tried to compare this situation to freighters already, and it's a flawed argument because you aren't comparing like for like. a 1 ship per race type of ships can not be compared to multiple ships per race type of ships.

    between roles, i think rise has done a good job balancing the ships, but not within roles w.r.t. large cargo ships. cargo space is a very important factor so having a "lots of cargo at the expense of the rest of the stats" vs a "passable cargo space but lots of other goodies" type of ship is great, imo.

    however, within the ship type the large cargo haulers aren't balanced because of what i pointed out.


    Perhaps its time for an ORE (not the mineral) hauler which is not race specific and can carry round 100m3, give it some sort of set tank, maybe one or 2 talos volleys worth , cloak, allign slightly faster than an orca and of course a small drone bay.
    Deirdre Anethoel
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #870 - 2013-06-25 19:51:49 UTC
    Cage Man wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Maximus Andendare wrote:
    And besides, under your ridiculous logic, nobody would ever fly anything other than a Charon. But guess what: people do. They fly Fenrirs for their align time despite being the smallest, Obelisks for their sizable tank, and Providences for being a good mix of the stats. But that's ok, everyone only looks at one stat: cargo space. That's why everyone is in all those Charons only. Oh wait, they're not.


    that's because freighters have one ship per race unlike industrials. therefore if you're not after the cargo space then the mammoth/itty V/bestower/badger mk2 aren't the correct ship for you anyway. unlike freighters where you just have "i can fly x freighter, or nothing" people can't really pick a freighter based on their needs without cross training. unlike t1 industrials.

    people have tried to compare this situation to freighters already, and it's a flawed argument because you aren't comparing like for like. a 1 ship per race type of ships can not be compared to multiple ships per race type of ships.

    between roles, i think rise has done a good job balancing the ships, but not within roles w.r.t. large cargo ships. cargo space is a very important factor so having a "lots of cargo at the expense of the rest of the stats" vs a "passable cargo space but lots of other goodies" type of ship is great, imo.

    however, within the ship type the large cargo haulers aren't balanced because of what i pointed out.


    Perhaps its time for an ORE (not the mineral) hauler which is not race specific and can carry round 100m3, give it some sort of set tank, maybe one or 2 talos volleys worth , cloak, allign slightly faster than an orca and of course a small drone bay.


    Could be the way I talked about it in my post above : split the orca in two : a nice hauler, and a good mining command ship, instead of being both.
    Lister Vindaloo
    5 Tons of Flax
    #871 - 2013-06-25 20:15:43 UTC
    CCP Rise, thanks for taking our views into consideration, I await the new changes in excited anticipation. The concepts sound great!
    Dave Stark
    #872 - 2013-06-25 20:17:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
    Deirdre Anethoel wrote:
    Could be the way I talked about it in my post above : split the orca in two : a nice hauler, and a good mining command ship, instead of being both.

    to be blunt, mining is already a ****** pain in the arse activity without making the current orca require 2 accounts.
    Deirdre Anethoel
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #873 - 2013-06-25 20:20:23 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Deirdre Anethoel wrote:
    Could be the way I talked about it in my post above : split the orca in two : a nice hauler, and a good mining command ship, instead of being both.

    to be blunt, mining is already a ****** pain in the arse activity without making the current orca require 2 accounts.


    No need for two accounts, only two ships.
    But maybe the mining orca should have the ability to move refined ores too.
    Calzan
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #874 - 2013-06-25 20:28:56 UTC
    I'd like to see the Iteron III with a Planetary Interaction bay. Completely selfish but it's what I use for PI. If CCP could make that happen off a single user's (an assumption on my part as I haven't read 40+ pages or discussion) request I wont know what to think.
    Psicose Sexithiophene
    Zebra Corp
    Goonswarm Federation
    #875 - 2013-06-25 20:30:37 UTC
    Vayn Baxtor wrote:
    [quote

    Too bad the module thread has been unstickied. Right now, there seems to be the issue and/or debate on all sides about versatility, special bays etc etc. I am really starting to think it would have been best if we did have that "subsystem module" thought of an idea be brought over to the industrial ship area (and other ships);

    Only that such subsystem modules come in form of High/Med/Low modules that could significantly change the ship's role. Because; we always have the same problem - we need industrial ships that can do several tasks, but without having CCP be tossing out hundreds of ships for each role.

    Following that sort of ruleset where you can only fit one of such flavor into the ship; we could somewhat have a base industrial hull be fitted with the module that substantially expands cargo, OR introduces a special bay of a specific flavor (PI commoditiy cargo, ship hangar bay, etc)

    Will leave it there.

    Or is such too hard to imagine?


    I have said this for a long time... how about a tier 3 strategic orca or some new ship that can change its roles based on high, mid, low.

    Where I see indies lacking majorly is the movement of fitted ships.
  • Moving fitted ships into/out of wormholes is a tedious groan affair.
  • Moving fitted battleships/support ships around for incursions is done via contracts and freighters... this would reduce the steps it takes.
  • Moving around ships to counter war-decs again is done via contracts and freighters... again reduce the steps it takes.

  • Some of the tier 3 indie fittings could be, mobile wormhole pos, wormhole stabilizer, unscannable bay, high-sec (limited) jump driving, only ore, only gas, only ice, small scale or slowed compression for ore... really as the above person said... imagination is really the key.
    Alvatore DiMarco
    Capricious Endeavours Ltd
    #876 - 2013-06-25 20:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
    I like my Orca, but I don't use it for industry. I use it for moving around assembled ships, disassembled ships and large amounts of.. well, stuff. I'd love to see a ship that has no ore bay and no maintenance array, instead merging the space from those into the cargo hold and the fleet hangar, respectively.

    This isn't related to Tech 1 industrials, but the last couple of posts aren't either.
    Rin Corsi
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #877 - 2013-06-25 20:47:16 UTC
    Specialized hauler: Supply Ship.
    Special feature: Charge Hold - carries lots and lots of ammo, cap booster charges, nanite paste, etc. Other ships can be allowed access to this hold as per a corporate hangar.

    New highslot module to go with it: Supply Beam
    A relative of the tractor beam, but forms a tube which cargo workers can use to rapidly move supplies between ships at extended distances.
    When the beam is set on a particular ship, that ship can access your ship's corporate hangars and similarly accessible holds from a range of X km instead of the usual 2.5 km.
    When used by a ship with a Charge Hold, the targeted vessel automatically draws charges from the Charge Hold instead of its own stores if possible when modules try to reload. Nanite repair paste is likewise drawn from the supply ship.

    Script for the Supply Beam: Automated Distribution Script
    When this script is installed on the Supply Beam, it functions in an area of effect rather than targeted at a specific ship. The radius of the effect is only Y km, but all ships with appropriate access rights in the area can receive supplies as though they were the target of the beam. (The beam animation would only play briefly whenever a ship uses the service)
    Mara Pahrdi
    The Order of Anoyia
    #878 - 2013-06-25 20:59:08 UTC
    Steve Ronuken wrote:
    I've said it on my blog, but I'll stick it here too:

    Give the Caldari and the Amarr the biggest general purpose bays, and the best of the other function.

    Give the Minmatar the next biggest general purpose bay.

    Give the Gallente the smallest general purpose bay, to make up for having the most flexible ship range.

    My asbestos suit is ready for the flames.

    I support this.

    Remove standings and insurance.

    Mara Pahrdi
    The Order of Anoyia
    #879 - 2013-06-25 21:05:23 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hey guys

    good stuff

    See you soon in the OP with more details
    Fly safe

    This sounds really good. This also is, what I love about EVE and what makes EVE stand out from other games: Devs in touch with the community.

    Remove standings and insurance.

    Marsan
    #880 - 2013-06-25 21:11:41 UTC
    Flux Astraeus wrote:

    Why not give them all guns and drone bays so they can at least protect themselves they are carrying millions in assets, its just a silver platter gank machine. Han Solo had guns on his Millennium Falcon didnt he, good ones too! , and rightly so he wanted to protect his cargo from pirates so too should the haulers, Frieghters and Deep Space Transports.

    A small 1 kiloton ship shouldn't be able to point and hold a massive 800million ton behemoth it should be able to burn that pesky pirate with one drone look at the size of it?




    I've often wondered about why I can't fit a decent amount of guns, neuts, ecm or the like to my hauler. Give us a true battle badger!!! Note I'm not saying an untanked hauler should be able to punch at cruiser levels, but with a modest amount of work you should be able go toe to toe with a frigate, and seriously annoy a destroyer. While we are at it why can't I fit guns or missiles to my Orca. Jump freighters are intended to jump through enemy regions, and have the space for massive cargo holds, but they can't even fit small guns/launchers. Yet a frigate can easily fit them? Not to mention their lack of drone bays.

    Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.