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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

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Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#381 - 2013-06-07 14:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
EDITED - deleted pretty awful joke due to drunkenness.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#382 - 2013-06-07 14:32:52 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
EDITED - deleted pretty awful joke due to drunkenness.
I doubt it was quite as bad, as the ideas linked in the OP. P

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#383 - 2013-06-07 15:16:19 UTC
OldWolf69 wrote:
I fly mostly cloakers.
But i play.
Why would someone be able to win without playing?


How exactly do you "win". You can't do anything while in a cloaked ship and cloaked even if you are at the keyboard. How does being AFK make you able to win.

Curious minds want to know....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#384 - 2013-06-07 15:16:50 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
EDITED - deleted pretty awful joke due to drunkenness.


Awww... Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#385 - 2013-06-07 15:19:45 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Confirming I'm a cloaky camper who thinks cloaky camping is just a little bit OP. Really though, if you can't mine veldspar without being at the computer, why should you be able to harvest tears without being at the computer?

Hey, I use the mechanic. It's broken as **** though.
But which mechanic are they actually using to, as you say, 'harvest' these tears?


Well, I can see they can't respond because it sure a **** isn't a cloaking device...well not entirely....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#386 - 2013-06-07 15:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
Mag's wrote:
Tchulen wrote:
EDITED - deleted pretty awful joke due to drunkenness.
I doubt it was quite as bad, as the ideas linked in the OP. P


OldWolf69 wrote:
Oh, do you guys think they don't have marketing plans? There's always a Blonde, and, yeah, always in Marketing Department.


Whilst I agree that it certainly won't have been as bad as the ideas linked in the OP (even though it really was bad) it was about the level of morals (or lack thereof) required to get into marketing and therefore, added with the general view of blondes having more "fun"..... well, you can probably see why it could have been seen as offensive by a subset of people. Blonde marketing people mostly, I expect. Especially when you consider I was considerably more drunk at lunch and considerably more lewd.

Edit - I should have just let that lie Roll
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#387 - 2013-06-07 16:01:56 UTC
So how is afk cloaking and different than afk mining and why shouldnt it be changed like mining?
Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#388 - 2013-06-07 16:14:24 UTC
this whole debate is just another in a long string of such debates, going back to the beta, between "carebears" and aggresively pro pvp people.

one wants to mine / make isk free from intrusion, the other wants to be able to intrude on anyone at any time.

this could be applied to player pirating, ganking, warp scrambling, pos bashing, mining, rating, sov, PI, hauling, etc.. etc.. ad naseum. -- and really can be applied to any game that contains even an element of open pvp.

the more intelligent people see that some sort of balance has to be struck. people need to be able to go about their business without being destroyed every ten seconds, but there still has to be ways for people to destroy each other. CCP has found, over the years, a way to balance the myriad of player play styles, without caving into any one side, too much, for too long.

I fail to see why people could, withj a straight face, say that every single person who has a problem with AFK Cloakers (of the "all day in your system doing nothing but being there" variety) has nothing to complain about. Their complaints, and proposed solutions, might not be accurate or right for the game but they should not be belittled in the way they always have been by the aggresive types. These notions should be countered, not dismissed, and the posters should be educated to see the other side of the debate not ridiculed out of hand.

I realise this is a lot to expect from the posters on a forum dedicated to an online internet spaceship game.




History is the study of change.

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#389 - 2013-06-07 16:19:21 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
So how is afk cloaking and different than afk mining and why shouldnt it be changed like mining?


AFK Mining results in in game resources being generated and put into your cargo hold which can be sold/used for profit

"AFK Cloaking" produces nothing. You gain nothing. Why are you rallying so hard against "AFK Cloakers" but not people who sit in their pos afk, or in their station afk?
Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#390 - 2013-06-07 16:34:23 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
So how is afk cloaking and different than afk mining and why shouldnt it be changed like mining?


AFK Mining results in in game resources being generated and put into your cargo hold which can be sold/used for profit

"AFK Cloaking" produces nothing. You gain nothing. Why are you rallying so hard against "AFK Cloakers" but not people who sit in their pos afk, or in their station afk?


in player controlled null sec if a neut or red is in your station that would be cause for concern .. same goes for one of your POSs.

but in both case i can watch them, and I know where they are and therefore where they are not.

i can keep on eye on them docked or at a POS . and will know when they change from being innactive to active. 1 mbr of the blues can be tasked to carry out the task of watching them and egt the warning out when they returned to being active. Once would also be to see what they are flying at the POS, or watch undock.

This is not the same with AFK cloakers.

and i would counter the notion that AFK cloakers do not produce or gain anything .. they produce fear and gain a free disruption of local logisitcs and isk making - for almost no cost to the cloaker.

History is the study of change.

Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#391 - 2013-06-07 16:38:46 UTC
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:
t...snipped but good points...
I fail to see why people could, withj a straight face, say that every single person who has a problem with AFK Cloakers (of the "all day in your system doing nothing but being there" variety) has nothing to complain about. Their complaints, and proposed solutions, might not be accurate or right for the game but they should not be belittled in the way they always have been by the aggresive types. These notions should be countered, not dismissed, and the posters should be educated to see the other side of the debate not ridiculed out of hand.

I realise this is a lot to expect from the posters on a forum dedicated to an online internet spaceship game.


I can say it with a straight face. The reason I can say it with a straight face is that I am that nullsec carebear with a perma camped cloaky in his system and it hasn't stopped me. It's all about playing the game. If you have the mentality where you want to play the game how you want to play the game and screw everyone else you should be playing a one player game. If you want to play a MASSIVELY multiplayer game then you need to learn how to figure ways round things. You need to work out how to play the game how you want to play the game within the confines of the game. People whining because they can't play exactly how they want to has destroyed other MMOs because the owners have caved to a few whiners on the forums rather than seeing the big picture and a lot of the players on this forum have seen it happen and don't want it to happen to EVE.

As for belittling their complaints I think you'll find that most of the people who have, in recent times, belittled anyone about this have at one point or another (and in a lot of cases I know, a LOT) have explained exactly why nerfing cloaks without a raft of other changes at the same time would be bad, they've explained how to get around the "problem" with current game mechanics and offered help to those that still don't understand and after doing this repeatedly they get frustrated with the same thing being posted by people who can't be bothered to use the search bar and people who start their posts with "I haven't searched because.....". The fact is that most of the people who whine about cloaks don't want a solution. They don't want to work around the problem. They want CCP to stop people from attacking them. They want to have a slice of nullsec without risk. I know this because I've tried to engage quite a few people who've started these topics in order to explain to them how to pve in nullsec with relative safety and I have yet to have ONE person who doesn't just dismiss me out of hand and demand that CCP fix it so they can't get hot dropped or attacked.

Well, I'm a nullsec carebear and I say keep cloaks. Keep them because they provide valid counters to various gameplay styles. Keep them because they're necessary for scouting. Keep them because when I'm exploring for an entire day I want to be able to go to the toilet/make a cup of tea without having to log off and log back on again. These wants are just as valid, if not more valid than the wants of those few who have a problem with cloaks and REFUSE to adapt.
Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#392 - 2013-06-07 17:07:22 UTC
i dont have a probelem with the cloak

i have a problem with afk cloakers - who never engage, who dont do anything but sit in local cloaked because they know it upsets people.

i wish i could fight with every neut that came into system, id sawp my miner out for a pvp fit ship and have a go .. id probably lose - but that would be what i call fun.

setting up a corp to deal with the mere possibility that the afk cloaky might this hour engage usually results in overkill defences and the resultant affect the afk cloaky, who might return to game, will never engage .. which wastes peoples time and effort.

my entire issue is that someone can input no effort at all into game, at no risk to themselves and in turn have a wide impact on others who must adjust to a direct possibility - rather than the indirect possibility of a hostile ship(s) approaching and entering system.

How do you adapt by the way, specifically .. there is no way that i can see to adapt without making sacrifices - sacrifices the afk cloaker does not have to make. That to be is the entire issue .. there is no counter to the threat .. only adaptation. You can not stop the afk cloaker .. you have add more non-isk-making ships to the mix that usual , who will most likely sit there bored out of their minds the entire time they are in gane, in the off chance the afk guy shows up and actually does something, which 99% of the time they wont.

It does not seem to me to be much a stretch to at leaast want some recourse to the perma afk cloaky in system, some risk for their reward of disrupting the system. At the moment is riskless reward .. which is not very eve like.

History is the study of change.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#393 - 2013-06-07 17:42:48 UTC
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:
...and i would counter the notion that AFK cloakers do not produce or gain anything .. they produce fear and gain a free disruption of local logisitcs and isk making - for almost no cost to the cloaker.

Well, that is awfully disingenuous...

Here is an analogy for you.

A group of primitive people on world X feel earthquakes because planetary interaction is harvesting resources.
The PI taking place is a detail they are oblivious to. The earthquakes themselves have no effect on their buildings or activities, but they are frightened by the effect because they think it might be an angry god warning them.
They always notice a smoking volcano, Lo Kal, billowing heavily when this happens.
So, to appease the angry smoke god, they assumed he wished their prayers when he was angry, and so they stayed in their huts praying whenever the smoke was heavy from Lo Kal.

The smoke does not make them do this, they are reacting to this on their own. They are making assumptions that the smoke is an angry god who will punish them.

Now the guy doing the PI might like the natives praying to him, indirectly as it was, but he is not controlling the primitives reaction, and it certainly has no real value except to feed his ego.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#394 - 2013-06-07 18:09:56 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
So how is afk cloaking and different than afk mining and why shouldnt it be changed like mining?
You seem to be under the impression that the change to mining some how affects someone going AFK whilst they mine. It doesn't. Plus AFK mining requires you to return to the comp to continue the activity, if you wish to gain more ice/ore.

AFK cloaking doesn't result in items or ISK, so therefore doesn't require you to return to the comp.

But please answer me this. Whilst they are AFK and cloaked, which mechanic are they using to interact with you?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#395 - 2013-06-07 18:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:
they produce fear and gain a free disruption of local logisitcs and isk making - for almost no cost to the cloaker.
They hope to produce fear. But the thing about psychological warfare is, that it's not a guarantee.
But answer me this: Whilst they are AFK and producing fear in you, which mechanic are they using to do this?

Oh and no one AFK cloaked ever stopped you using gates, docking, undocking, activating modules, warping etc etc. The only one stopping that is you.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#396 - 2013-06-07 18:46:03 UTC
they are using a cloaking mechanic + afk rules (mainly that there arnt any -- many MMO log you out when you are a AFK)...

with the potential for harm to come at any time in the future or never.

those on the receiving end never know if the pilot is truly AFK or not , therefore they must assume that the pilot is not AFK and potential threat at all times. the afk pilot knows they are AFK and therefore knows they are not really a threat and thinks .. "whats the big deal?"

they dont stop you from doing anything directly - but they add a larger than normal potential risk - that may or may not be real. One can not ignore that potential threat .. so in this way it does stop you from carrying on as normal with no neut / red in system.

I understand it s a pvp game. That people should be able to project force to disrupt logitics, but normally the person projecting the force has to take a degree of risk to get the reward they desire .. in this case there is no risk, no cost to the person pursuing the goal of disrupting a systems logistics.

when a pirate is camping a gate or trolling anomales or whatever , they are risking their ship, their mods, rigs, pod and their killboard stats for the potential gain of a kill, a loot drop and an addition to their killboard. Risk v Reward.

When a miner has a Rorq, 2 hulks and combat ship they need to keep and eye on local and intel channels and react to threats as they develope and dissipate - but there is always a risk that hostiles will get into system faster than they can evacuate to safety. Risk V Reward.

Same goes for all aspects in the game, espcially in nullsec .. with the exception of afk cloaking. No risk with great potential reward at no cost . I can see why people want to fight tooth and nail for it.


History is the study of change.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#397 - 2013-06-07 19:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:
they are using a cloaking mechanic + afk rules (mainly that there arnt any -- many MMO log you out when you are a AFK)...
Log out mechanics can easily be over come, without breaking the EULA. So they wouldn't work.

They are cloaked and AFK. How does the cloak enable them to interact with you? Well let's be honest here, it can't.
So which mechanic are they using?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#398 - 2013-06-07 19:39:48 UTC
obviously you will not understand my perspective -- nor I yours.

we will just keep repeating the same lines over and over and over.

you will say the afk person is not interacting with the other people in the system .. which they clearly are as they are having an effect.

and then you will ask "what mechanic they are using" -- and i guess i have idea wth you are talking about as i see quite clearly they are using a cloaking mechanic tied with an afk mechanic.


seems to me they should changed the cloaking mechanic and those people who use afk cloaking as a tool in their arsenal should just adapt. isnt hard.

History is the study of change.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#399 - 2013-06-07 19:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:
obviously you will not understand my perspective -- nor I yours.

we will just keep repeating the same lines over and over and over.

you will say the afk person is not interacting with the other people in the system .. which they clearly are as they are having an effect.

and then you will ask "what mechanic they are using" -- and i guess i have idea wth you are talking about as i see quite clearly they are using a cloaking mechanic tied with an afk mechanic.


seems to me they should changed the cloaking mechanic and those people who use afk cloaking as a tool in their arsenal should just adapt. isnt hard.
I know there is an interaction. I'm simply trying to get back to basics. There has to be a mechanic they use whilst AFK, that enables them to interact with you. How else would you know they were there?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#400 - 2013-06-07 19:48:12 UTC
:P

i see what you did there

i cant seem them changing local .. but who knows .. they did it with WH - but to do it to all of nullsec would radically alter the game -- in a way that i think would negatively impact too many players

making a rule change to change afk cloaking rules would only affect a few hundred - and really would barely affect those that do it at all.

History is the study of change.