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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

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Shedemei Silfar
Miskatonic Mercantile
#341 - 2013-06-06 16:52:37 UTC
I have to say that I'm glad they unlocked this thread. I've seen so many like it that have been locked never to have been resurrected, and I think it provides valuable insights into the perceptions of all humans on things like race/gender, etc.

tl;dr This will be really long, so feel free to skip it and move on if you're not interested.

For those of you who don't think it's important, or "why should it matter", you're not wrong, however it does apparently matter to many folks. For those of us who seem "different", whether it be because we're female, non-white, gay, whatever.. there's a significant amount of pain involved in being stereotyped into something we're not.

As an example, when I was young, I played little league the first year girls could play. I was 10. I LOVED baseball and spent huge amounts of my free time playing and throwing with anyone i could get to put on a mitt. We had 25 kids try out(not everyone made it back then) for 15 slots on the team. I got one of them. While I was not the best player on the team, I was good, and I earned it.

I was shocked, to say the least, by the reception I got... not only from my teammates, but also from several of the parents - especially a few who were outraged that I made the team and their son did not. On a daily basis, I endured dozens of rude, specifically gender-based comments, name calling... and even the guys who were my friends prior to me playing wouldn't be seen talking to me or sitting next to me in the dugout.

It got better. Not alot, but some.

I played for three seasons, and then we moved to an area that had a girls softball team and I switched.

I learned a lot from this experience. First, that it was going to be a long, tough road being true to who I was and that I could expect a great deal of resistance. Second, that people are mostly just afraid of change. Third, it doesn't matter. Living authentically in a tough environment is on any given day superior to living a lie in safety.

It's painful to be told that you're not good enough to do something that you actually are good at and love, for no reason other than fear and ignorance, and anyone who's been the target of discriminatory behaviour can attest to this. So for the women on this thread who have said as much - please recognise that they have a valid experiential perspective.

For the guys who have said that hey - we shouldn't have to change a game that we love just so you like it better - I agree. It's a game, like any other game - if you like it play, if you don't... don't play.

I like it. I'm gonna play. I also play disc golf, another 90% male sport. Compared to most guys and even some girls, I suck. I'm usually +12 on average. Given my smaller body size and lesser upper body strength, I think i do ok . I'm gonna keep playing because I love it. Gotta say that I don't run into any discriminatory issues on the golf course, ever, even though the "player base" is roughly the same, percentage wise.
/tl;dr
This is a good game. It should be changed as required to make it a BETTER game. I don't think making it pink or censoring your player base will make it better. That's not how real change happens.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#342 - 2013-06-06 16:53:36 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
And, EVe doesn't need to much of that. All one has to do is spend 5 minutes on xbox live to see why.



That's like a CoD player claiming a WoW player is a kid. Ugh

Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP is still in business, still growing, still presiding over a game that is 10 years old and still growiing.


Just be glad CCP isn't a publicly traded company. The investors would want a higher return......

Jenn aSide wrote:

Ah, that's where you're making the mistake. That's a huge generalization, and those usually come from people who mistakenly think everyone else is or should be like them. Many of us prefer exclusivity over things that are just average and have mass appeal.

More is not always better.


Being exclusive is being reclusive.

So is it better to be special or equal? Can't be both.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#343 - 2013-06-06 16:53:54 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:


I always get "No thanks, only dicks play that game."


So them this video, they will play EVE.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#344 - 2013-06-06 16:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Ace Uoweme wrote:


Just be glad CCP isn't a publicly traded company. The investors would want a higher return......


I am glad for that, a privately held company is more resistant to the "always want more" influences publicly traded companies have to deal with.

NO publicly traded company would ever produce a niche product like EVE because it's really hard to monetize and it's customers are so fickle any major change could lead to product failure.

Jenn aSide wrote:


Being exclusive is being reclusive.


You follow up a generalization with...another generalization. That's not good reasoning.

Exclusivity is like anything else, too much can be bad, not enough is usually bad as well. EVE isn't like most other MMOs and this is a good thing. Why must everything be beat down to bland sameness? EVE is cool because it's different.
Quote:

So is it better to be special or equal? Can't be both.


Special.

Equality is a myth of the human mind. The only place people IRL are and should be equal is in the eyes of the law/government.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#345 - 2013-06-06 17:03:11 UTC
Yes we need more capriciousness in game! What?

Not today spaghetti.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#346 - 2013-06-06 17:04:07 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
Ruze wrote:


I can understand why this would seem alien to women. I'd rather punch a guy in his jaw and have a beer afterwards than talk about him behind his back and hold a grudge. Not only do I enjoy the confrontation, but I grow from it, and it's reaction with others.


When we looked across the parade deck, the women were always so nice and polite to each other. And then the drama, the backbiting. As a guy, I've never understood why two women in the workplace always seem to have to diss each other.

So while the argument that men aren't supportive seems valid, I disagree. It's simply that our support is earned by camaraderie and aggression, as odd as that sounds. We know that guy will pull our ass literally out of the fire, even if he don't like us. Cause if he really didn't like us, he'd have punched us in the jaw two months ago, and it could have been settled.

Different ways.




All men are like that?

And all women are like that too?

Although, when men do it we call it "Politics" or "Corp theft" in eve ^^

/me thinks I should probably change the people I hang round with then, because I think I have the groups back to front.


No, generalities and such.

I hang out with men like that, by preference. If I run into a guy who isn't, the quiet types or the one's who get overly violent when someone insults them, I generally avoid hanging out with them. If men are bitching and whining, that's one thing. If they are maneuvering and playing with a face, yeah, it's called politicking.

And from a 'manly man' standpoint, politicking is often demonized and looked down on for that very same reason.

Just like I generally avoid hanging out with aggressive women. Make sense? No matter how far the rough play can go, at no point will I be able to really treat her like a guy. Cause if she pissed me off, my normal recourse for the other buddies ... fists and aggressive posturing ... is subdued.

It's unfair. I definitely get that. But I don't try to play the drama game, either. That stuff starts up, I walk out the door.

I'd rather keep my relationship with those who are 'other' as professional as possible, and leave the private times for those that aren't, instead of forcing the situation.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
NosEspEYE
swordFightingaFart
#347 - 2013-06-06 17:13:20 UTC
I will laugh if CCP starts to make policies and changes to the game that "blame, penalize" male players in an effort to encourage women to play. They will go from hero to zero, white knight not white wolf but call it typical knee jerk reaction to pander to a specific group.

Games have become a popular escape for men in society. When game companies start targeting men negatively men will just find another game or another escape. Go after proven individual men who are complete idiots that causing trouble, dont penalize entire groups, that is key. That also includes men or women who cause trouble.

while "most" men welcome women into gaming "most" men do not welcome sexist crap anymore than women do. Some men are jerks, some women are jerks. Some men are going to blame women, some women will blame men for all their troubles enjoying a game.

Those who are mature enough just do all they can to not perpetuate the problem or become the problem they just play and try to have fun while not hurting anyone.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#348 - 2013-06-06 17:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Uoweme
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:


Just be glad CCP isn't a publicly traded company. The investors would want a higher return......


I am glad for that, a privately held company is more resistant to the "always want more" influences publicly traded companies have to deal with.

NO publicly traded company would ever produce a niche product like EVE because it's really hard to monetize and it's customers are so fickle any major change could lead to product failure.


Did you ask CCP what it would be glad with? If they wanted to remain a one trick pony, they wouldn't be branching out.

Jenn aSide wrote:


You follow up a generalization with...another generalization. That's not good reasoning.


No, being exclusive is a limited market. In gaming a limited market is reclusive (and if not careful, so reclusive it better off dead).

Jenn aSide wrote:


Special.

Equality is a myth of the human mind. The only place people IRL are and should be equal is in the eyes of the law/government.


That's quite a pessimistic outlook. 1964 ring any bells? Or will it be better to go back to the Jim Crow days, since equality doesn't matter (which will preclude even posting on a "White" forum)? Did you remember segregation? Or view it from 30 years later?

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#349 - 2013-06-06 17:31:14 UTC
Amanda Chelian wrote:
I find it quite amusing how CCP spending resources on the Incarna project was widely considered by the playerbase to be a monumental waste of time, yet people now complain that EVE doesn't cater to women.

Player interaction in EVE is mostly limited to a chatbox with 2D portrait images, and more often than not, being on the wrong end of someone's blaster cannons. The vast majority of players in high-sec are just doing their own thing even when in player corps, and you have to look quite hard to find some cooperative content without all the baggage that comes with joining a nullsec alliance or a PvP corp. As you're learning the ropes of the game, you're constantly getting the feeling that EVE is a very asocial game. Comparing that to the mainstream MMOs, where you can be doing group PvE that actually encourages teaming up with players very early on into the game, it's not surprising at all that EVE has a very bad retention rate for female players. Proper Incarna™ (the one with actual social interaction) would have helped massively here, but it's you, the 96%, that wouldn't have any of it, so deal with it. P


This is right on the money!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#350 - 2013-06-06 17:33:07 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:


Did you ask CCP what it would be glad with? If they wanted to remain a one trick pony, they wouldn't be branching out.


"Branching out" to...antoher game connected to the 1st and a Vampire game that may not see the light of day?

Still I never suggested CCP stay a one game company. I suggest the EVE remind EVE.

If you don't like EVE asit is, why are you here?

Quote:


No, being exclusive is a limited market. In gaming a limited market is reclusive (and if not careful, so reclusive it better off dead).


and yet EVE survives and is growing.

Quote:

That's quite a pessimistic outlook. 1964 ring any bells? Or will it be better to go back to the Jim Crow days, since equality doesn't matter (which will preclude even posting on a "White" forum)? Did you remember segregation? Or view it from 30 years later?


No this is just dumb, maybe you missed the " in the eyes of the law/government" part I posted.

I'm talking about all this other fake equality people talk about, as if people are "equal" to others in every way. I had an ex-wife who kept talking about how "equal" she was...until she needed her tire changed of something heavy lifted lol. Those were "man jobs".

People my be created equal, but they don't stay that way for long. for every single thing i can do, there is someone better at it, and im better at at least 1 thing hen some other guy is. People who talk about equality all the time are simply inadequate people who want to ignore the fact that they aren't perfect at everything.

Individuality and the specialness of each person is what's important IMO.
GreenSeed
#351 - 2013-06-06 17:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenSeed
changing the game is not the way to go, changing the people is the idea, and that cant be done by CCP.

would making the game "spaceships and barbies" make it more appealing to certain part of the female demographic? yes, and no. the correct assumption would be "it would make it more appealing to the demographic that likes interaction, avatars, and crap to collect. that's males and females."

changing the game in that way is a waste of money and time as already proven by incarna, which only appealed to the people that were already playing eve and enjoyed collecting stuff and going OCD over their avatar.

the game as it is, at its best, attracts two kinds of people. the ones that like to build sand castles and the ones that like to dive bomb on them. and that includes women and men.

so why women either hide their identity or leave the game? because the men act like jerks?... no, its because men act like gross sexual deviants half the time when protected by anonymity and are free from peer pressure, something that not only creeps the crap outta women, but also does the same to any group. i know people who don't want to talk more than a few one liners on comms, otherwise some yank will go into a 10 minute rant about how the "damn immigrants" are taking jobs, when the poor dude isn't even from the US. and don't get me started on gay men and woman. "wtf men you forgot to overheat point? you big fat homo!"(yeah, im changing words here, but you get the point) and then its a few minutes of the most childish, hurtful and ill informed homophobic rant.

the question is why does this happen? i don't think its because the people that do it are bad people, its just because anonymity + the position of power that game puts you in, feed on one another and suddenly you turned a nice guy into a bile spewing bigot.

all it takes is one convo from a third party saying "hey men, you are being an *******. quit it.". and in my mind, that's the problem. people don't want to be "that person" that privately talks to someone and points out a flaw in character. i don't mind being it, and if you reading this, have the ability to tell when a random joke on comms turned into a rant that makes you pull your headphones out, you should say it too. and there's no need to get Big Brother involved. (CCP)

and yes, being left out the roam because you called someone out on being an ******* is well worth it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#352 - 2013-06-06 17:50:53 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Amanda Chelian wrote:
I find it quite amusing how CCP spending resources on the Incarna project was widely considered by the playerbase to be a monumental waste of time, yet people now complain that EVE doesn't cater to women.

Player interaction in EVE is mostly limited to a chatbox with 2D portrait images, and more often than not, being on the wrong end of someone's blaster cannons. The vast majority of players in high-sec are just doing their own thing even when in player corps, and you have to look quite hard to find some cooperative content without all the baggage that comes with joining a nullsec alliance or a PvP corp. As you're learning the ropes of the game, you're constantly getting the feeling that EVE is a very asocial game. Comparing that to the mainstream MMOs, where you can be doing group PvE that actually encourages teaming up with players very early on into the game, it's not surprising at all that EVE has a very bad retention rate for female players. Proper Incarna™ (the one with actual social interaction) would have helped massively here, but it's you, the 96%, that wouldn't have any of it, so deal with it. P


This is right on the money!

No, it isn't.
Incarna and WiS stuff has nothing to do with women.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#353 - 2013-06-06 17:57:26 UTC
I think the "problem" if it is indeed that, has been covered several times, and it has nothing to do with WiS or spaceship barbie.

It has to do with, as lots of posters have said, this is a niche game, and women geeks are less common than male geeks...for a whole variety of reasons.

Maybe that will change as we get more women in STEM subjects, but, for now, what I really want in eve is more ecologists!....and from earlier in this thread, we need more golfers too.

With regard to the "women dont play because there are some idiots in game"......there are plenty of men who are put off by that to, unless all the threads in various places about "I would play, but its full of sociopaths" are all being made by women.

Women dont play for the same reason your local comic book store or AD&D is not 50/50 split between genders....whether this is a societal thing, or a taste thing is a whole other discussion, but, maybe the stopping of labelling toys as "boys" or "girls" will move that forward a bit.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#354 - 2013-06-06 18:05:33 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
I think the "problem" if it is indeed that, has been covered several times, and it has nothing to do with WiS or spaceship barbie.

It has to do with, as lots of posters have said, this is a niche game, and women geeks are less common than male geeks...for a whole variety of reasons.

Maybe that will change as we get more women in STEM subjects, but, for now, what I really want in eve is more ecologists!....and from earlier in this thread, we need more golfers too.

With regard to the "women dont play because there are some idiots in game"......there are plenty of men who are put off by that to, unless all the threads in various places about "I would play, but its full of sociopaths" are all being made by women.

Women dont play for the same reason your local comic book store or AD&D is not 50/50 split between genders....whether this is a societal thing, or a taste thing is a whole other discussion, but, maybe the stopping of labelling toys as "boys" or "girls" will move that forward a bit.


Perfectly well said.

EVE can't be viewed in a vacuum, many many other games and activities have low female participation. Men and women tend to like like different things and that's ok.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#355 - 2013-06-06 18:18:32 UTC
This old (2005) blog post isn't scientific, but it's a good read. That guy may have been on to something.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/observer/archives/2005/05/24/why_men_love_science_fiction_so_much.html
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#356 - 2013-06-06 18:49:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
She said, outright, that the attitude of men in this game is a result of the tutorial saying "sissy girl". I'd like to think most men have more cognitive ability than that though.


Um, no, she used it as an example of a much larger phenomenon. That was flatly obvious.

As for some other points that you've brought up:

1) tell the wife of the torturer/rapist in Cleveland about how the law privileges women. Her case (being completely ignored and sidelined by a legal system that knew full well that she was being threatened, beaten, etc.) is only unusual for the extremity of his crimes. The plain fact is that if you want to pull up examples of men or women getting screwed by the law, you will succeed. There are some cases where men are, and some where women are.

2) I'm curious both about your knowledge of the 1960s--you know, for example, that there was never once a bra burning, right? that that's a reactionary fiction?--and your use of the term "feminist." My mother is a dyed-in-the-wool 1960s feminist, and the only thing she's ever wanted was respect. If her language has been harsh at times, it's because she's had to wade through decades of being underestimated, overlooked, belittled, dismissed, condescended to, talked over, insulted, taken for granted, and otherwise treated as second class, and maybe strong language and anger are appropriate responses to that? Because if a woman reacted the way you feel free to before this decade or so, she'd be labeled as "crazy," and that'd be the end of anyone ever listening to her. Remember, "hysterical" comes from the Greek word for "womb," and it was a diagnosable psychological condition in the 1960s. Feminism is a more than century-old movement at this point, so of course you can find a few out-there people if you look (and even after you correct for their circumstances, which were often pretty far out there), but the overall goal has always been equality. If you believe that men and women should be treated equally, congratulations! You're a feminist.

3) The "grrl gamer" is born of the fact that people will naturally seek advantages for themselves. If a woman finds herself in a situation where she can't get respect, but she can curry favor by giggling, guess what she will at least consider doing? Leaving, or giggling. If you want "IMA GRRL GAMER" types to go away, treat women as peers and not as objects. Get your friends to treat women as peers and not as objects. Then, the most successful way for a woman to join a male group will be... as a peer. Magic!

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Seniae 0n3
#357 - 2013-06-06 19:01:07 UTC
I don't think feminism has much to do with it all. Women have the same rights, environment and say in the gameworld we call Eve Online.

It's sexism, the way some or some more people react to women whether it be negative or over positive.
Xeraphi
Perkone
Caldari State
#358 - 2013-06-06 19:04:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You just stereotyped all men who play this game, btw. Moreso than anyone in this thread has done to women. You didn't even imply, you outright stated that men aren't capable of knowing the difference between NPC banter and real people, and that men are apparently stupid enough for the 5 total lines of dialogue in which this is mentioned to effect our entire outlook on gender relations.

The only bigot here is you.


Well, there is also you deliberately misinterpreting words. It is clear from my first reading of what Xeraphi wrote that the lines of dialogue are designed for men: the phrase "sissy girl" we laugh off as clueless noob smack talk because that is the kind of language we used while growing up: in my school the weaker boys were labelled "wussy girl's blouse".

That kind of smack talk sounds ridiculous to a girl unless she pretends to be a boy for a moment. That her gender is used as a slur sends a clear signal to the girl: "you aren't welcome here."

As women, these girls have years of life experience providing new contexts in which to interpret these lines, but the message is the same: "you are alien, you do not belong."

No one is actually suggesting that those lines of smack talk make male players suddenly decide to be sexist or misogynist.


Tch, see, I knew I should have put /sarcasm in there.

She said, outright, that the attitude of men in this game is a result of the tutorial saying "sissy girl". I'd like to think most men have more cognitive ability than that though.


Cognitive ability only affects subconscious bias if the subconscious bias is brought into consciousness.

Unless you evaluate that line in the tutorial and understand it for what it is, it will affect you. How many people just gloss over it?

New target lock death animation problem #1 ^ eye strain and pain Temporary workaround found to one of these.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#359 - 2013-06-06 19:20:28 UTC
NosEspEYE wrote:
I will laugh if CCP starts to make policies and changes to the game that "blame, penalize" male players in an effort to encourage women to play. They will go from hero to zero, white knight not white wolf but call it typical knee jerk reaction to pander to a specific group.


No one is asking for that.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2013-06-06 19:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
It's not something that traditionally appeals to women, there's a stigma attached as well as the fact that there's not much character customisation after the creation screen.

if you want more women to play this game, you need avatar interaction within stations and vanity items for them.

Sad but true :(


This is probably (partially) true -- the stigma part and visuals (not shopping so much). I played SWTOR for awhile and was in a guild with several women, and overall people didn't freak out to hear a female voice, like they do here at times. The RPG/story may be a draw too, though a lot of people took part in group PvE. Too bad it grew old quickly, unlike EvE -- different kind of game.

Funny enough though, the guys were as much or more into the toys then the girls, often playing barbie dress-up.

P.S. Many female guildmates were professionals -- e.g. nurses, teachers and so on, so I know it isn't the learning curve. It may be the focus on what you have to learn though, among other things, like the game's politics.

P.S.S. If I am honest, I think women in general, the women I know, have a much lower BS/e-peen threshold. And, I suppose Eve wouldn't be EVE w/o unhealthy doses of both.


I guess I play as I like the challenge and (some of) the people. As well I am just wired to play games women don't normally play. I guess I have my dad to thank for that ...I had few dolls but plenty of building sets, art, and science kits.

Glad I had a cool dad who got me what I liked and not what was expected of me to like. Idea