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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#101 - 2011-11-05 18:25:08 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Since they are slaves and stole all of their technology, their boat should reflect that.
.



You are SOOO wrong here Twisted
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2011-11-05 18:32:27 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Yeay yet again another overpowered minmatar boat with too big guns.
I hope you are aware that minmatar boats no longer reflect their "origins"? Since they are slaves and stole all of their technology, their boat should reflect that.
Why are there still boats in the game that can alpha anything away and outrun any kind of weapon system?
I have a very easy solution for that matter, decrease tracking of all artillery weapons by 500% and damage by 50% or if that does not suit you just have all minmatar ships have their shield resistence reduced by 100% and shield hp by 100% and armor hp reduced by 75% and armor resistance by lets say 30%.
That would reflect the technology of slaves clamped together in general Cool

Why should there be any battlecruiser sized boat that can fly >2000m/s with a volley damage >6000hp ?

I can see that the new battlecruiser line is designed to be fast and deadly but to any ship should be a counter against or make it unbreakable.

Hey, Minmatar engineers are just smarter than everyone else in the 'verse. That is why their guns are easier to fit, have selectable types, better range, better tracking, don't take cap and do more damage.


Ain't our fault everyone else is pants-on-head ********.
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#103 - 2011-11-05 18:41:06 UTC
Not sure where to put this, but the Oracle's camera center needs some adjustment, it is too "in front" and needs a quick look to centralize it.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#104 - 2011-11-05 19:01:31 UTC
Voith wrote:
Hey, Minmatar engineers are just smarter than everyone else in the 'verse.

Why thank you.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Hentes Zsemle
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2011-11-05 19:09:15 UTC
This isn't even funny anymore, are the devs or anyone who is in charge of the stats of theese ships flying anything but minmatar?

Okay the tornado is flying at ~1600m/s with mwd which is slower than a vaga alright but this is ridiculous, i just checked my deimos which has a 1600mm plate on it, not even armor rigs, and i wouldn't be able to catch that since its about a 100m/s slower, and their agility is basicly the same.

No hac other than the vaga is a real threat to theese ships.

i wonder if there is any point in writing theese comments, there are hundreads of pages of forum threads, of which the devs should have read half of, and they could have come up with a better concept for theese ships.

The fact that they keep making minmatars more op is just ... whatever, not worth it to spend more time writing feedbacks on this s
Tegg Tonn
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2011-11-05 20:10:17 UTC

Played around with the Naga a bit.

1) Close Range Torp Naga sucks. DPS is weak against BCs even while they are webbed. Right now I don't see flying one

2) 425mm Sniping Naga was not bad. DPS was still lacking and speed is a major issue. Even nanoed, the Naga was easily over taken with 70km between it and a Tornado (obviously close range fit). Really? It thought the whole purpose was be able to kite but the speed differential was so much that the Tornado can close on it?

so over all score for the Naga is 3 out of 10. Close range 1 out of 10, long range 6 out of 10. overall I foresee myself flying the Talos or the Tornado with the current balancing.

Recommendations:

a) Different weapon bonuses for the Torps. (maybe also a speed factor bonus??)

b) Increased speed as differential between Tornado and Naga seems too large.
Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#107 - 2011-11-05 20:12:22 UTC
I have been playing with the Naga and I have to say it has some issues.

1. It has a very hard time fitting proper PvP fits. I recommend increasing the fitting bonuses.

2. DPS wise the Naga isn't impressive, at no range does it do top damage (compared to other BC3s). Please revise the combat bonuses. But the problem might stem with the Torpedos and Railguns.

3. Change the Hybrid fitting bonuses to Railgun fitting bonuses.

4. The Naga is too slow.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2011-11-05 20:18:31 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:



i think half of the hybrid problems would simply go away if autocannons were nerfed.


One thing I have learned since playing EVE is never settle for a Nerf. Nerfs have brought us where we are today. CCP has NEARLY ruined the game with nerfs. Lets try Buffs to Hybrids. Say a 15 percent tracking buff and 40 percent DPS buff to blasters. THEN we can talk speed buffs to Hybrid ships (Including Caldari).

Also... autocannons? Hah. ACs are so last year. Arty is the projectile of choice now FYI.
Yaay
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#109 - 2011-11-05 20:50:20 UTC
******* minmatar... falloff bonus makes the auto cannons hit out to 8.4 + 104 falloff with 734 base dmg (~365 dps at max falloff), with cruiser gun like tracking... how do you not get that that's overpowered. I'd have less of a problem if all the ships got a range modifier and a damage modifier plus ridiculous speed, but of course, you limited it to pretty much faildari and overpowered minmatar.
Tiny Mongo
Recreational Hazards
#110 - 2011-11-05 21:34:22 UTC
From messing around with the torp Naga a few things stand out:

1) you don't have enough CPU to support siege launchers, 3x BSC II's, and all those mids. I ran out of CPU with 2 mids to spare (maybe due to only having AWU 4 but I do have a +3% CPU implant) an additional 40 or 50 CPU would probably be wise for a normal PVP fit (mwd, point, LSE II, DCU II, and assorted hardners/ewar)

2) Needs a pg mod/rig to fit 8x siege launchers, dmg mods, point, MWD and LSE II

3) Speed and handling are decent but nothing to write home about

4) Torp damage is decent (not the uber glass cannon I was hoping for) against large targets but pitiful for anything BC down. Its range (even with BC 5) means you will still have trouble hitting anything that isn't on top of you. If I knew I was fighting BS I'd bring a torp Raven for the better tank/damage output.

5) You can fit a decent resist tank on it (with a CPU mod) so for fleet ops with Logi it may be useful.

6) The capacitor is rather weak which would cause huge active tanking/hybrid weapon issues.

Overall the ship hull looks nice but its combat capabilities are lacking. I think a torp Raven or Ham Drake will still be the better choice over the Naga in virtually all situations.

PS: Not economical in any way shape or form to active tank it. It is also outclassed by a Tornado in every way (the only other tier 3 BC I can fly)
spawx
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#111 - 2011-11-05 21:51:43 UTC
I must say, the Naga (Caldari Tier 3) has been screwed, why would it get hybrid turrets and not launchers. also the torpedos cant be fitted due to the huge powergrid they use, only 40% decrease in launcher Power grid compared to the 95% of hybrids and other guns, and also not giving it the 2nd BS Type launcher ? All other races get both why shuldnt caldari, why stuck a missile race with useless hybrids. another thing i noticed was that i died before i culd even scratch a Oracles armor. dmg ussues ? (this was with Blasters, torpedos and Railguns)

PLEASE give Naga Cruise missiles, less powergrid use of launchers and more bonuses.
Caldari aint a hybrid race, why make it a hybrid boat? there is reasons why noone uses the hybrid caldari ships
alsation
Super French Mining Merchant Surrender Fleet
#112 - 2011-11-05 22:03:23 UTC
Pretty much what I am seeing from playing with these in their current state is that they are cruiser sized pre-buff pre-nerfed destroyers. They have all the problems destroyers used to have and more.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#113 - 2011-11-05 22:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Gypsio III wrote:
Okay, the Talos. This ship is completely worthless. It is outclassed as a blasterboat by the Tornado:

Blaster Talos with neutrons, dual MFS, 800 mm plate, dual trimarks and an ACR.
It can do 1061 DPS with Void, at 6.8 km optimal and 6.3 km falloff.
33k EHP, 1308 m/s, 105 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.

AC Tornado, 8x 800s with Hail, CDFEs, DC, 4x gyros.
980 DPS with 3 km optimal and 36 km falloff.
31k EHP with overheated Invuln, 1662 m/s, 147 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.

If you are brave/stupid enough to fly a ship in the blasterboat role, the better ship for the job is the Tornado. It is much faster and much more agile so it can actually get close to apply DPS, and it has the falloff to apply DPS while trying to get close. Selectable damage types increase its applied DPS to basically the level of blasters. The Talos has almost no chance of winning in a fight between these ships. Of course, in reality, the Tornado does not need to go into blaster range to apply its DPS, unlike the Talos. But the point is that the Tornado is better than the Talos at the only job the Talos can do, and the Tornado can also apply DPS from far greater range.

The Talos is also outclassed by the Oracle. With 8x MP and 3x HS, it does 1022 DPS to twice the effective range of the Talos, with basically the same EHP, and the option to instantly switch to Scorch for 730 DPS at 45 km. Even worse than this, the Talos will also lose a straight-up fight at blaster optimal with a bog-standard shield Hurricane. The Talos's DPS advantage over the Hurricane is insufficient to make up for its inferior EHP.

Let's look at the rail Talos then. Its competitors are the Scorch Oracle, Tachyon Oracle, Rail Naga and artillery Tornado. To 50 km, the Scorch Oracle does pretty much the same DPS with twice the tracking. The Tachyon Oracle outdamages, outvolleys and out-tracks it at all ranges. The artillery Tornado outdamages and outvolleys it at all ranges. It doesn't matter what the Naga does.

There is simply no reason to fly the Talos. The blaster fit offers nothing that the Tornado, Oracle or Hurricane cannot also do as an afterthought, way aside from their main abilities. The Talos is utterly defenceless against frigates, while the Tornado and Oracle have the combination of tracking and range to hope to apply some sort of DPS to smaller ships. At long range, it is casually outclassed by tachyons and artillery.

The Talos, therefore, is hybrids in microcosm. It is completely pointless.


Once again, the best way to fit it is shield fit it, then you have some more speed/agility and a nice increase dps with 2 MFS's and 2 TE's.

And once again, what's the purpose of supposed armor tank ships being better with shield fits? -armor tanked is just crap
Ho and the supposed "in tha face" dps...no comment.
Holy Cheater
Monks of War
#114 - 2011-11-05 22:32:01 UTC
The Naga. It have the same problem as Raven does for years.
Tech II siege launchers + mwd + some tank are incompatible. You have to throw something away to make it fittable. With it's current state it is risking to be another huntboat and not very good one.
Also torpedoes do make less DPS than other battleship weapons on the paper. And when it comes to torpedoes facing target's signature/velocity even that damage vapours away.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#115 - 2011-11-05 22:34:42 UTC
It seems a lot of the problems are less that one ship is bad, and more that the tornado is just vastly superior in most metrics. It does get ridiculous bonuses that the other ships don't have. I'm pretty tired of the blatant minmatar love that ccp gives out. If you're looking at balance, lets start with bringing minmatar ships back in line with the rest of them.

Abbadons with projectils should in no way but more viable than abbadons with lasers.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#116 - 2011-11-05 22:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Imrik86
The Naga bonuses are stupid and it's impossible to fit it.

Give it a range/explosion radius/RoF bonus instead and drop the hybrid bonuses so it can make sense as a BC with oversized guns, or give it decent powergrid and capacitor if you pretend people to fit rails on it (which will still suck at DPS, but at least people will be able to fit it).

Try to not turn it into another Rokh-fail.
Dondoran
Why So Sage
Dracarys.
#117 - 2011-11-05 23:33:12 UTC
I think its time to look at the Naga in a different way its never going to be a good ship in PVP lets give that idea up. Instead lets repurpose it to be a cheap and powerful ratting ship.
7 highs 6 mids and 4 lows 5% rate of fire 10% missile velocity a mini cruise missile Navy Raven.
Great ship to rat with in places not under concord protection, cheap and effective.

The current Naga build is generating a fair amount of hate as well it should, will CCP act.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#118 - 2011-11-06 01:11:46 UTC
ok after a longer day of testing the talos i have more to say about it.

PVE - MISSIONS - there are a lot of rats it has trouble hitting specifically -

cartel rats - vipers / webbers
spider drones.
guardian scouts.

While a technique of kiting usually works on frigs once you get webbed you are basically dead in the water, as you cannot break free to be able to keep rats transversal low. Mind you this is while under the influence of combat boosters.

Recommendation - 25m³ drone bay.

PVE - non missions

Non mission style pve the talos performs well using null ammo for that super falloff. however other ammos seem meh when using it for non mission pve. Tracking was not an issue for most things in there as they all went pop before they hit my ship. However there are some rats that were annoying and loved to really stay at range.

Recommendation - inspect small increase in fall off.

PVP - Small gang

LOL - with rapier support or lokis gahh this thing will rip your face off. With an AB it does pretty decent of hunting down targets and really just ruining the day of my corp mates. The speed with the ab is nice and even with a 1600 on it, great acceleration.

PVP - ganking.

*dies laughing* im going to be a rich man

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Denuo Secus
#119 - 2011-11-06 04:52:58 UTC
I tried the Naga on Sisi and wasn't that impressed. With rails it could be a decent sniper (using faction ammo < 150km) but torps on a ship with that little tank does not work well imho.

PLEASE give the Naga a cruise missile bonus! This ship would be awesome. Able to kite bigger and slower targets at range!
VeloxMors
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2011-11-06 05:05:27 UTC
I was hopeful for these, but tried them out and was completely disappointed. Specifically, I played around fitting the Naga and Tornado.

Naga: Fitting problems like crazy using torps... cpu and powergrid. Only having 3 lows makes it a struggle as to what to put in for dps/tank/fitting, meanwhile I have plenty of spare mids that I can't fit anything into. Move 1 mid to a low PLEASE. Even with that, I'm only half sold on the torp version... nice DPS, but only against very large ships/structures. And the tank leaves it quite vulnerable; I'm not even sure it's going to be useful in a POS bash with its tank the way it is.

Tornado: I don't know what this ship is for. I tried it as a sniper, I tried it as an AC ship... it just fails at both. Using autocannons, it'd get rocked by any other close range ship... everything from frigate up to close range battleships. As an artillery sniper, you have the speed to dictate range, but against any other sniper the paper tank on the tornado will become quite evident, especially if the MWD is lit.

Overall, they both seem to be riddled with issues and lack any sort of concept on what they're meant for. The BS sized weaponry sounds nice at first thought, but BS weapons have MAJOR drawbacks that many people were too busy drooling over dps to recognize at first. I think they might have been meant to be a counter to larger ships, but larger ships will chew though these weak tanks before they get a chance to shine... and they have trouble with other BCs or smaller ships. So, why are these being added again?