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Dev Blog: Probe Scanning and other Goodies for Odyssey

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Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#121 - 2013-05-28 19:41:39 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
If you any of you feel that changes are bad in some way please hit me up with eve mail with reasons and how would you like this or that mechanic to be implemented and I will make sure the information is available to CCP in constructive manner.


C'mon Chitsa, I know that Eve players are illiterate math challenged morons that need color bars instead of numbers but devs should be able to read what people are pointing out as bad moves at least in this thread. But take a look where dev's badge is here and it will be clear that they don't care about anybody's but their own point of view.

It started when CCP Betik saw something in metrics that justified eviscerating lowsec pvp with removal of static DEDs, with Odyssey it seems those mythical metrics show much more about how people play Eve and apparently all devs are looking at them.

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Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-05-28 19:53:48 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Hey Chitsa,

thanks for showing up. Are you aware of the first few pages of the testserver feedback thread? That is a very good point to start. Basicly all what is being said here, has already been during the production phase. But without all the anger management issues and in a more constructive way, because people still had hopes.


Yes I have read the thread and posted my feedback to to CCP.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-05-28 19:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Chitsa Jason
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
If you any of you feel that changes are bad in some way please hit me up with eve mail with reasons and how would you like this or that mechanic to be implemented and I will make sure the information is available to CCP in constructive manner.


C'mon Chitsa, I know that Eve players are illiterate math challenged morons that need color bars instead of numbers but devs should be able to read what people are pointing out as bad moves at least in this thread. But take a look where dev's badge is here and it will be clear that they don't care about anybody's but their own point of view.

It started when CCP Betik saw something in metrics that justified eviscerating lowsec pvp with removal of static DEDs, with Odyssey it seems those mythical metrics show much more about how people play Eve and apparently all devs are looking at them.


My job as CSM is to make sure player feedback is listened to. We are player representatives and I will try my best to do my job.

Antagonizing CCP will not fix issues we players want to get fixed. What is needed is constructive feedback

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me
Steijn
Quay Industries
#124 - 2013-05-28 20:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Steijn
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
If you any of you feel that changes are bad in some way please hit me up with eve mail with reasons and how would you like this or that mechanic to be implemented and I will make sure the information is available to CCP in constructive manner.


C'mon Chitsa, I know that Eve players are illiterate math challenged morons that need color bars instead of numbers but devs should be able to read what people are pointing out as bad moves at least in this thread. But take a look where dev's badge is here and it will be clear that they don't care about anybody's but their own point of view.

It started when CCP Betik saw something in metrics that justified eviscerating lowsec pvp with removal of static DEDs, with Odyssey it seems those mythical metrics show much more about how people play Eve and apparently all devs are looking at them.


My job as CSM is to make sure player feedback is listened to. We are player representatives and I will try my best to do my job.

Antagonizing CCP will not fix issues we players want to get fixed. What is needed is constructive feedback


with respect, CCP have proved in the past that constructive feedback does absolutely nothing. Most of the things they have planned in the past have eventually been changed because of the sh*tstorm that the change created, not because of us been constructive.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#125 - 2013-05-28 20:08:59 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
My job as CSM is to make sure player feedback is listened to. We are player representatives and I will try my best to do my job.

Antagonizing CCP will not fix issues we players want to get fixed. What is needed is constructive feedback


That's very nice of you and I don't say you shouldn't do that. But you have to admit there are some disturbances in the force on line what was promised, what feedback we are asked for and what is delivered.

I have an impression that only dev who actually listened to feedback in his threads and reacted on what really was pointed out as bad move is CCP Rise and his BS tiercide stickies in F&I.

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#126 - 2013-05-28 20:12:08 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
If you any of you feel that changes are bad in some way please hit me up with eve mail with reasons and how would you like this or that mechanic to be implemented and I will make sure the information is available to CCP in constructive manner.


C'mon Chitsa, I know that Eve players are illiterate math challenged morons that need color bars instead of numbers but devs should be able to read what people are pointing out as bad moves at least in this thread. But take a look where dev's badge is here and it will be clear that they don't care about anybody's but their own point of view.

It started when CCP Betik saw something in metrics that justified eviscerating lowsec pvp with removal of static DEDs, with Odyssey it seems those mythical metrics show much more about how people play Eve and apparently all devs are looking at them.


My job as CSM is to make sure player feedback is listened to. We are player representatives and I will try my best to do my job.

Antagonizing CCP will not fix issues we players want to get fixed. What is needed is constructive feedback
I'm not sure how involved the CSM was in the iteration of probing for the Odyssey release, but if you guys signed on to some of these changes, I'd really have to wonder if being a CSM has made you forget the very mechanics that probers use on a daily basis. And what's more, I'd love to know the CSM's feedback on such hand-holding things like automatic and magical instant recall of probes on a jump. How could that have slipped through the cracks? It's bad enough that the delay time between dropping probes and cloaking is cut, on average, by 85% post-Odyssey with the 1-click launch-all. Now, the magic and instant teleportation of probes not only removes any responsibility from a careless scanner, it is totally unrealistic in a game with consequences and immersion.

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Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#127 - 2013-05-28 20:12:13 UTC
Steijn wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
If you any of you feel that changes are bad in some way please hit me up with eve mail with reasons and how would you like this or that mechanic to be implemented and I will make sure the information is available to CCP in constructive manner.


C'mon Chitsa, I know that Eve players are illiterate math challenged morons that need color bars instead of numbers but devs should be able to read what people are pointing out as bad moves at least in this thread. But take a look where dev's badge is here and it will be clear that they don't care about anybody's but their own point of view.

It started when CCP Betik saw something in metrics that justified eviscerating lowsec pvp with removal of static DEDs, with Odyssey it seems those mythical metrics show much more about how people play Eve and apparently all devs are looking at them.


My job as CSM is to make sure player feedback is listened to. We are player representatives and I will try my best to do my job.

Antagonizing CCP will not fix issues we players want to get fixed. What is needed is constructive feedback


with respect, CCP have proved in the past that constructive feedback does absolutely nothing. Most of the things they have planned in the past have eventually been changed because of the sh*tstorm that the change created, not because of us been constructive.


I would disagree but I think we are going off topic here. If you can post about it in appropriate thread or mail me and we can talk about it.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me
Lirinas
B.C.C.O.F Investments
#128 - 2013-05-28 20:12:48 UTC
The impression I'm getting, with the lack of any insightful Dev comments is that we're getting these changes whether we like them or not.

I do hope you can get their attention Chitsa, and make them aware of the general dissatisfaction we have for these ideas.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#129 - 2013-05-28 20:16:29 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
My job as CSM is to make sure player feedback is listened to. We are player representatives and I will try my best to do my job.

Antagonizing CCP will not fix issues we players want to get fixed. What is needed is constructive feedback


That's very nice of you and I don't say you shouldn't do that. But you have to admit there are some disturbances in the force on line what was promised, what feedback we are asked for and what is delivered.

I have an impression that only dev who actually listened to feedback in his threads and reacted on what really was pointed out as bad move is CCP Rise and his BS tiercide stickies in F&I.


There are massive differences in how devs and teams react to feedback. I find most of them very responsive, the teams handling the Launcher and Scanner development do not represent CCP majority in this aspect.


.
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-05-28 20:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Chitsa Jason
Lirinas wrote:
The impression I'm getting, with the lack of any insightful Dev comments is that we're getting these changes whether we like them or not.

I do hope you can get their attention Chitsa, and make them aware of the general dissatisfaction we have for these ideas.


As I mentioned I will do my best. The more feedback I gather through various information mediums the better.

So if you do not like something or like something in these changes please post your ideas here or mail me. Being constructive would help my job a lot.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me
Vacille
Vac Inc.
#131 - 2013-05-28 20:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vacille
I understand CCP wanting to lower the barrier of entry to exploration and I actually thought they had done that in Apocrypha, but don't they relies that as you continue to dilute the entry knowledge of certain professions you also lower the overall enjoyment and self-gratification a player acquires from getting into that profession.

I joined in 07 and took up probing not long after and that was of course with the old probing system and that was as far as you could get from a user friendly system but that was exactly why I loved it, they're weren't any tutorials to read in game, if you wanted to learn it you'd have to use some initiative and actually go and do some trial and error or search and learn from other people. It was a super niche skill for exactly them reasons, it was an actual profession in game that took a lot of time to master. I understand it needed to change for the inclusion of WH and it was super dumbed down for it, so why exactly is it being even more dumbed down again?

Just to add, this is NOT an exploration expansion unless there is some huge feature you've yet to announce, this is more of a Crucible type expansion for exploration related things. Apocrypha was an exploration expansion. They're nothing new to explore coming with Odyssey.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#132 - 2013-05-28 20:24:21 UTC
I want to scan wrecks please, been finding abandonded faction wrecks on dscan on some systems when people run away, that I would love to scan to get the shinies.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#133 - 2013-05-28 20:27:36 UTC
Roime wrote:
There are massive differences in how devs and teams react to feedback. I find most of them very responsive, the teams handling the Launcher and Scanner development do not represent CCP majority in this aspect.


Yeah but launcher derp preventing huge amount of people from logging in and those magical aspects of how probes behave are few orders of magnitude apart. Here we are pointing out how changes are cutting on consequences side of players mistakes rather than on probes not working at all which would be an equivalent of launcher initial fiasco.

I still hope that all this is - as previous poster wrote - just Crucible of exploration system, hard changes needed to move all universe forward and next expansion will be built upon those changes and full of ossum they promised.

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Equimanthorn
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#134 - 2013-05-28 20:32:53 UTC
I have been scanning since scanning was an option in EVE. Mara hit the nail on the head. Please quit changing this system. Not everyone is supposed to do everything in EvE. There are tonnes of crap I suck at in this game and that's just the way it is, but I am great at scanning. I was great at the old system and the system before that.

Christ I'll adapt but EvE is interesting because it is hard.

Mara Rinn wrote:
Deep Space Probes were very useful for filtering out signatures that we weren't interested in paying further attention to. Most of the functionality of DSP is now lost: the system scanner display only shows the presence of "stuff", the signal strength having been removed from that display. The DSP was previously useful for saving time, and was in itself a decent reason to train Astrometrics 5 (the other very good reason being that more probes in space means better quality probing, faster pinpointing, and bragging rights).

The automatic recall of probes means that there is less chance of people being stranded in unknown space and having to find their way out by contacting locals, asking for help on the forums, or suiciding their way home. You are actively removing consequences. Sure, you have lots of new players complaining that the consequences are too severe: this is a reflection on their unreadiness to face loss, rather than loss in the game being a bad thing.

So with each little hand-holding exercise you undertake, you are going to remove the opportunities that players have to learn about loss and failure, meaning that their first PvP loss is going to be all the more traumatic.

EVE needs the little niggles to help people cope and learn to stand on their own two feet and/or establish friendships with people who complement their skill sets: everything from leaving that distribution mission cargo 6 jumps away, losing probes when jumping through wormholes, through to forgetting to insure their combat ship before heading out to look for a fight.

If filtering out signals using a DSP wasn't an intended mechanic, a better solution would be to randomise the signal strength of the signatures present in space, and to review the signal strengths of signatures that explorers have tabulated over the years. If you notice that there are only 12 categories of signature, perhaps that's an indication that you need to smear the possible signature strengths over a larger potential signal strength range.

Deep Space Probes were also useful for quickly narrowing down groups of signatures in very large systems (anything larger than 30AU radius). This functionality is partially replaced by the system scanner overview, so I'll hold my judgement.

Ultimately though, I feel your attempts to "simplify" content and make it "more accessible" are going to end up dumbing the game down, removing the consequences of failure, and turning EVE Online into "WoW in space."
Carol Krabit
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-05-28 20:33:04 UTC
Yet another change to steer away from the harsh uniqueness into the mirage of a demographic that is not appealed by complexity. Other games got it covered, CCP. Let it go.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#136 - 2013-05-28 20:33:06 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Roime wrote:
There are massive differences in how devs and teams react to feedback. I find most of them very responsive, the teams handling the Launcher and Scanner development do not represent CCP majority in this aspect.


Yeah but launcher derp preventing huge amount of people from logging in and those magical aspects of how probes behave are few orders of magnitude apart. Here we are pointing out how changes are cutting on consequences side of players mistakes rather than on probes not working at all which would be an equivalent of launcher initial fiasco.

I still hope that all this is - as previous poster wrote - just Crucible of exploration system, hard changes needed to move all universe forward and next expansion will be built upon those changes and full of ossum they promised.


Well we haven't seen the new scanner on TQ yet :D

I do share your optimism about the future, tho. Irrational, I know.

.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#137 - 2013-05-28 20:37:24 UTC
Roime wrote:
I do share your optimism about the future, tho. Irrational, I know.


I definitely share that dream you have in your sig :)

Soon, my precious, soon...

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Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#138 - 2013-05-28 20:43:49 UTC
yeah I was excited when I first heard they were going to work on exploration. So many things they could do. And still, somehow, not one feature in this list excites me. That truly takes talent.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-05-28 20:50:05 UTC
in before the Threadnaught - because, let's face it, some of those changes are just terrible.
Komen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-05-28 20:56:25 UTC
Automatically recalling probes? Can we toggle this off? There are applications for dropping probes in a system, leaving, coming back and reconnecting intentionally that I'd like to not lose please.