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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#881 - 2011-11-04 22:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Mekhana wrote:
To you people wanting Gallente ships to special little snowflakes GTFO my EVE. Seriously.

The only thing Gallente needs are buffs to guns and to hulls, no matter in what form as long they are adequate (which they aren't anywhere near close after playing a round of SiSi brawl with my corp a hour ago.)

CCP has their hands full with the Winter expansion, don't **** things up for the rest of us.


LOL! For those of us who don't speak "incomprehendable", WTF does your post mean?



Obviously, it means some of you are missing out how narrow this balancing window is.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#882 - 2011-11-04 23:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Dare Devel wrote:
New Brawler-Rokh

Hign Slots
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Caldari Navy Antimatar Charge)

Med Slots
1x Stasis Webifier II
2x Large Shield Extender II
2x Invulnerability Field II
1x Quad LiF Fueled Booster Rockets

Low SLots
4xMagnetic Field Stabilizer II
1xDamage Control II

Drone Bay
5x Valkyrie II

Rigs:
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I


AWU 5
Without MWD 24 mins cap
Optimal - 7.76 Falloff-17.634 Tracking 0.071 DPS - 926 /CN Animatar
optimal 19.4 Falloff - 22 Tracking 0.053 DPS - 738 /NULL

How does it look?

it looks like the enemy plays with the rokh until they get bored then just warp out
i love the part without mwd... oh noes why to put mwd on it then if it doesnt need to use it...
Ford Utama
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#883 - 2011-11-05 00:36:55 UTC
I'm just going to throw this out there, and I'm not sure how practical it would be. Bear with me.

What about introducing a series of "thruster drones" that would produce either a reverse stasis web like effect(increasing your ships velocity, and perhaps agility) specifically for the Gallente hull? Alternatively, you could convert the current light, medium, and heavy drones by adding an ability for the drones to attach to your Gallente hull, adding thrust. This would remove a portion of Gallente's DPS while in use, but would provide a speed boost to close the gap. Furthermore, in my eyes the drones could still be targeted while attached to your hull, and as such an enemy could counteract them, if they chose to go after the drones instead of your ship.

Keep in mind that you could justify that these drones to be used only in this way for Gallente, or CCP could make them for all races, *but* with a larger bonus to the effects of speed on the Gallente because of their drone background. You could also change that entirely, and allow drones to attach or interface with other races hulls, but to give them some other race independent bonus, like cap recharging rate for Amarr, increased Missile Velocity for Caldari, etc.

As for balance or overfit issues, CCP could introduce either a limit to how much one hull could be boosted, so that the effect would not be overpowered.

The idea here for me is that instead of using your drones for their typical role, you would have them attach and utilize their onboard microwarpdrive to provide additional thrust to the host ship. Obviously, this is just a thought, and as such I was throwing it out to see if more creative minds could find any way to make this work.
Oxeu
Perkone
Caldari State
#884 - 2011-11-05 01:08:36 UTC
Dare Devel wrote:
New Brawler-Rokh

Hign Slots
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Caldari Navy Antimatar Charge)

Med Slots
1x Stasis Webifier II
2x Large Shield Extender II
2x Invulnerability Field II
1x Quad LiF Fueled Booster Rockets

Low SLots
4xMagnetic Field Stabilizer II
1xDamage Control II

Drone Bay
5x Valkyrie II

Rigs:
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I


AWU 5
Without MWD 24 mins cap
Optimal - 7.76 Falloff-17.634 Tracking 0.071 DPS - 926 /CN Animatar
optimal 19.4 Falloff - 22 Tracking 0.053 DPS - 738 /NULL

How does it look?


I blow it to smithereens in my maelstrom without even trying hard....

I fly Minnie and Caldari, got equal Hybrid and projectile skills, yet I never fly a boat with hybrids into combat and this change won't make a difference. For caldari boats alone transform those USELESS range bonuses in damage serious no one fights outside 150k scan out warp scram death while doing a ******* 350 DPS WOOT! O NO NOT!

My rokh will remain a beautiful ship I love to fly around for looks, but in performance well screw it I get my maelstrom.
Will DestroyYou
#885 - 2011-11-05 01:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Will DestroyYou
There is really only 3 ways to fix gallente:

1. Change hybrids to a new type of turrets, "flak". With a low volley damage, a fast rate of fire, thermal/explosive damage, and an explosion radius/velocity like missiles have instead of tracking. (this would also fix caldari ships in pvp at the same time)

-or-

2. Fix drones so they warp with their owner and can be used in more then 1 battle.

-or-

3. Both of the above.
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#886 - 2011-11-05 01:30:43 UTC
Kumq uat wrote:
Oh FFS. My post ended up as last on the page. Sigh. GO READ IT. Eh fuckit. Will just repost for the trolls.

WTF is this ****? Did you people suddenly go brain dead? Guess I should post what I said earlier so you people can ******* clue in.

Tracking and fitting were issues but so is damage. Currently blasters have barely any DPS edge over AC without the range, versatility, capless firing, ammo size, customizable damage, escapability, etc that AC's and Minmatar have. I know you people doubt me about the damage statement but you can see it in EFT for yourself with just raw DPS numbers, much less all the variables you then have to add in.

As a blaster pilot you plow into the center of the battle and commit yourself 100% and subject yourself to all the scrams, drones, neuts, webs, etc. The blasters have pitiful range. They barely out damage AC's even in the optimal of that range and because of the range they need to be in they require tons more tracking. Add to the fact that blasters in their hay day were also combined with things like a Thorax launching 7 heavy drones. Then CCP buffed HP on all ship hulls. Then came rigs which buffed EHP even more. Then the other weapon systems got boosted. Blasters no longer were TOTALHELLDEATH if you came in range of them.

The changes are a first step but they are hardly enough. There needs to be not a range bonus or speed but a massive DPS and tracking boost to make them acceptable for the risk of flying straight into a fleet and committing 100% to the battle with no hope of escape. That is the Gallente way and IT WILL BE GLORIOUS!


A whole race dedicated to suicide rushes is LOL. Your still talking bout a nich that has no place in large scale battles, it takes way to long to switch primary if you have to fly to him so this nich is limited to small gang/solo only
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#887 - 2011-11-05 01:39:49 UTC
Ford Utama wrote:
I'm just going to throw this out there, and I'm not sure how practical it would be. Bear with me.

What about introducing a series of "thruster drones" that would produce either a reverse stasis web like effect(increasing your ships velocity, and perhaps agility) specifically for the Gallente hull? Alternatively, you could convert the current light, medium, and heavy drones by adding an ability for the drones to attach to your Gallente hull, adding thrust. This would remove a portion of Gallente's DPS while in use, but would provide a speed boost to close the gap. Furthermore, in my eyes the drones could still be targeted while attached to your hull, and as such an enemy could counteract them, if they chose to go after the drones instead of your ship.

Keep in mind that you could justify that these drones to be used only in this way for Gallente, or CCP could make them for all races, *but* with a larger bonus to the effects of speed on the Gallente because of their drone background. You could also change that entirely, and allow drones to attach or interface with other races hulls, but to give them some other race independent bonus, like cap recharging rate for Amarr, increased Missile Velocity for Caldari, etc.

As for balance or overfit issues, CCP could introduce either a limit to how much one hull could be boosted, so that the effect would not be overpowered.

The idea here for me is that instead of using your drones for their typical role, you would have them attach and utilize their onboard microwarpdrive to provide additional thrust to the host ship. Obviously, this is just a thought, and as such I was throwing it out to see if more creative minds could find any way to make this work.



Great another way to make nano drakes and nano canes even faster. For crying out loud guys stop talking bout buffing drones, ALL 4 races use them and any buff to drones will buff everyone and do nothing for blasters
Nikollai Tesla
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#888 - 2011-11-05 02:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikollai Tesla
I put some actual data in EFT together. To compare turrets

Initial Test Settings
Ground rules were cruisers 5 turret equivalents.
1000 PG, fighting best guns possible
2 weapon damage upgrades
No Drones
No Resists/Damage type were factored in. of EHP
No MWD, NO afterbuner or WEB

*minmitara still had 500 PG for tank and other things while the rest were at cap

Test Results
Here you can see Blasters, quickly loose the DPS strength at about 7KM and get surpassed by the Autocannons. They megapulse lasers also almost do the same damage as Blasters. In this situation Lasers are longer range and Autocannons do more damage.

Faction Ammo, high Transversal

Here the attacking ship is closing with the defending one to cut the traversal, with the better tracking the blasters to large amounts of damage. Yet are still quickly surpassed withing 6-7km. Additionally autocannons can choose weakest resist damage type doing additional damage.

Faction Ammo , low Transversal


Next 2 use close range faction ammo:

Ammar megapulses dominate becase the ship was designed entirely for guns, rupture still have ~400-500 PG to fit tank. Cutting back on guns should bring Scorch/Conflag damage down.

As you can see void still has a very narrow engagement range and quickly loses its DPS. Scorch is in its league of its own but costs cap, and has ludicrous fitting requirements.

Tech 2 Ammo, high Transversal

Tech 2 Ammo,low Transversal

Summary:
-Autocannons are the lowest fitting requirement weapons
-Minmittar has double bonus ships ROF+DMG, that effectively let them fly with 8 gun equivalents freeing up utility slots and tank space.
-Gallente Ships tend to be slower, so once in optimal range it won't necessarily stay there
-Faster ships can choose to disengage or change range
-DPS/Damage bonus is negated after 6-10KM to where DPS drops to zero. In fleet engagements spreading out will nullify blasters.


Possible Idea:


"Particle blasters operate on a similar principle as the railgun except they fire a magnetically contained ball of subatomic particles. No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters, but due to the rapid dispersion of the containment field, it also has the worst range of all turrets. "

A magnetically contained ball of subatomic particles, is a PLASMA TORPEDO. Don't make blasters into an autocannon or lasers, make them even more hybrid by making them like HAMs, with good DPS.


Blaster Torpedo
-Has Reload Time for Ammo (Same as Blaster)
-Has Fixed Damage Type (Same as Blaster)
-Has Cap Usage (Same as Blaster)
-Short-Mid Range Optimal only Weapon (Same as HAMS, Better than Blaster)
+No Range Damage degradation. (Better than Blaster, Same as Missile)
-Travel Speed, not instantaneous (Worse than Blaster, Better than Missile)
-Has Lifetime, very short (Shorter than Assualt Missiles)

EDIT:FIXED LINKS
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#889 - 2011-11-05 02:28:41 UTC
RackotPrime wrote:
i do not support range increaseAttention
ammo remake, damage increase, ships balance, armor tank balance - YEAS, but i don`t wont new AC or lasers under blasters mark


This.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#890 - 2011-11-05 02:42:37 UTC
Well ITS NOT enough. Its good starting point for next tweaks. And Please CCP give this gig to the guy who was "playing / trying to play" Gallente. If not this revmap will be rubbish.

Take this very serious coz lots of ppl wants to play gallente. If you loose this time. game is over, but you know that..

We need better range on hybrids. Now you are giving us something but its not enough with this revmap Gallente will be still balls suckers.

How to Christ Sake Gallente could won a WAR ? Any WAR ...

Ships are slow and range is close so WTF ? You made lots of mistakes with others revmaps and now sorry to say but you must "drink this beer"


I wasnt playing some time coz Im pissed on you Im going back coz Winter Expansion as you said will be about hybrids and space stuff. If Hybrids going to suck I'll quit again sorry...

Take Care and Mucho Luck coz clock is ticking . tic . tic
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#891 - 2011-11-05 02:47:08 UTC
Kumq uat wrote:
WTF is this ****? Did you people suddenly go brain dead? Guess I should post what I said earlier so you people can ******* clue in.

Tracking and fitting were issues but so is damage. Currently blasters have barely any DPS edge over AC without the range, versatility, capless firing, ammo size, customizable damage, escapability, etc that AC's and Minmatar have. I know you people doubt me about the damage statement but you can see it in EFT for yourself with just raw DPS numbers, much less all the variables you then have to add in.

As a blaster pilot you plow into the center of the battle and commit yourself 100% and subject yourself to all the scrams, drones, neuts, webs, etc. The blasters have pitiful range. They barely out damage AC's even in the optimal of that range and because of the range they need to be in they require tons more tracking. Add to the fact that blasters in their hay day were also combined with things like a Thorax launching 7 heavy drones. Then CCP buffed HP on all ship hulls. Then came rigs which buffed EHP even more. Then the other weapon systems got boosted. Blasters no longer were TOTALHELLDEATH if you came in range of them.

The changes are a first step but they are hardly enough. There needs to be not a range bonus or speed but a massive DPS and tracking boost to make them acceptable for the risk of flying straight into a fleet and committing 100% to the battle with no hope of escape. That is the Gallente way and IT WILL BE GLORIOUS!


Well in the hay day Gallente also had their nos-droneboats (completely making Amarr bullshit, remember the 3 years of "lol, Amarr" we had on the forums?), no bandwidth, overpowered damps, nano-dominix, for a while Eos was arguably the most powerful/overpowered ship in the game, and a bit later on they were doing great in the nano days with Ishtar etc. And by all means, when we still used sniper-bs, and before the Apoc was changed, the rail-Mega was easier to fit and generally more preferred and used than any Minmatar ships, and 'better' than the Armageddon. Amarr even flied with projectiles at times becuase of cap and fitting issues.

That doesn't make it right that hybrids have fallen behind. But if we're gonna look at what changed, we'll find this: the nos nullified the expensive cap consumption. Bandwidth was a necessary addition but overnerfed certain ships, like the Eos. Damps are now underwhelming instead of overpowered, where's the iteration CCP, it's only gone what, three-four years? Nano-BS was fixed, but instead we had nano from smaller ships - which was later changed, but in the same patch the 90% webs were removed. That was quite reasonable as everyone will be going alot slower now, but same time that was also a major blaster-nerf.

Eventually CCP fixed the "lol, Amarr" by iterating on their ships and weaponry. And even further on, the projectiles (remember noone flew minmatar for years in fleets? just the Vaga/Rapier in skirmish/smallscale warfare, the nano-snipers even preferred Eagle, Zealot and Cerberus over Muninns) were fixed. One of the fixes was a major boost to TE's.

TL;DR - there was necessary iteration on Amarr and Minmatar as they were underwhelming, and rightfully so. There was *no* iteration on these changes made tho, and many more changes followed. Making Gallente weaponry into projectiles is not a solution. Something else is needed. Something unique for Gallente. And a nerf to TE would not hurt either, but the core stats, functionality and balance between lasers and projectiles is very good. It's just hybrids who lack. Especially fai.. I mean rails. Blasters are close-range ships, they won't do well if they don't start fight (or get jump-in) on top of stuff. If you expect a mobile fight, and/or not camping a gate/station, don't fit blasters. That's when you should fit rails, if they actually worked.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#892 - 2011-11-05 02:53:21 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Bummer, I was hoping to see a CCP response today. Even a couple of lines can help focus the discussion.

Things are starting to look a bit grim with the silence. Wonder what we are going to see. The idea of messing with rigs seems like a poor idea. It affects too many aspects of the game and in the end will only make the other platforms that much better over the hybrid boats, particularly if Amarr gets a speed bonus from changes to armor rigs and the shield tanked Minmatar boats don't get a sig radius increase from shield rigs, because they already enjoy a very low sig radius to start with. Messing with rigs just impacts so many other aspects of ship designs of all the races. The changes need to be Gallente boats specifically. Caldari long range rails I think is simpler to deal with directly to the rail gun stats.

I think the most succinct argument to date is that there is just no good reason to fly Gallente boats. Whether you are talking solo/small groups or in bigger fleets. They tend to be more expensive and every time you go into a fight, you are committed 100%. All the other races can fight aligned or kite out of damage and warp. Even fighting within single point range is viable and can be exited from with MWD. Gallente fight inside scram/web/neut range. The cost/benefit just isn't there. In the POP,POP, POP of fleet fights its often very frustrating for a Gallente pilot to try and get into range of primary as targets change. Right as you get there, primary goes pop and now new primary is far away again. Even with frigate tackler support most Hurricanes have such high tracking that if frigs try to tackle with a scram on, they die. But scram is what is need to slow the immense speed of these ships.


It's because you try to use short-range weaponry in a medium range engagement. The boost need to be to rails, the solution is not to give blasters more range. I'm a t2 large blaster pilot myself, I use them on multiple characters regulary, I love them, they are ******* awsome and really powerful. If people stopped trying to use blasters in medium- to longrange envinronment, and if fails/rails actually worked, this would be a non-issue.

Lasers are a medium range weaponry. Projectiles fight in falloff, they don't do their EFT damage, they usually do 40-60% of that in a regular fight. Blasters do their full damage IF they get in range. Rails on the other hand, are underwhelming. No alpha, poor damage, everything.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#893 - 2011-11-05 02:56:37 UTC
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Minmie trolls don't want to be worse than now (the perfect example of how a noob can win a 5-years old player)
Amarr players don't want his lasers nerfed.
Every time they lose their arguments they say that hybrid were the firsts OP in the game. And won't allow it happens again. But they don't think they are far better than before, and the others also need to be better ¬¬

Make dissapear hybrid and put lasers to gallente and projectiles to Caldari.


Actually missiles were the first weaponsystem to be OP. P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#894 - 2011-11-05 03:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanth
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
[quote=Misanth]stuff...


And wtf is up with all people that ask for Gallente to have Minmatar speed, and want Blasters to compete with AC's for range? Heh. Why even have different weaponsystems if they're gonna be so similar? Blasters hit harder and Gallente are slower, that's how it functions, if you don't want to fly a slow but hard-hitting race, well then you trained wrong stuff my friend.



VERY few people are asking for Blasters compete with ACs for range. That's not a good fix, that makes them basically the same weapon.

The speed thing is KEY however. You say "Blasters hit harder and Gallente are slower, that's how it functions", but I don't think you realize the repercussions of this fact.

If you are flying a slow ship with a very short range, how in the *** are you going to kill anything without getting lucky?!?!
Who would be dumb enough to get within range of you?!
How could you possibly get close enough to hope to do any real damage?!
The only-other ships you might be lucky-enough to catch are going to be heavily-armored, hard-hitting ships just like yours.
So the only ships blaster-ships can engage are other blaster-ships. What's the point of that?

The idea I (and many others) have, is to allow blaster-ships to "sprint" for short periods of time at the expence of using lots of cap.
They wouldn't naturally be the fastest, just fastest for short periods of time. This way at least they have a chance vs a kiter.


I realise very well how this functions. It means that when I fly blaster-fits, I make damn sure I enter fights, or get to warp on top of things, that I start on a gate or station where I can get stuff in range, or that I have a backup plan to GTFO if I need. I know my blaster-Taranis can be kited by alot of other frigs, you know how you counter that? By running from some frigs (rock, scissors, paper), by engaging others (rock, scissors, paper) and by out-maneuvering your opponent in other cases (skill and experience > shortage of skill and inexperience). One example of the latter is to burn away from your opponent, then quickly turn around/double back, overheat scrambler/web and/or mwd and try catch him with his pants down.

The same goes for battleship combat. I don't bring Amarr ships for station games. They are horrible at that engagement range. A blaster or torp boat (or, in some cases, projectiles - but that's generally artillery ironicly, for alpha) do that better. If I'd go for a POS shoot in null, we engage at 30km+, outside the bubble right? So that's right smackdab in Amarr optimal, and they don't use ammo. Minmatar would be better in alpha-fleets doing something else.

Generally speaking, where my Gallente ships fall short, is in the mid- to long range combats because I can't use rails because they are utter ****. In short range combat my Gallente ships perform great. See a red line here? There has never been a situation in the history of EVE, that every race has ships that are useful to perform all roles/tasks. For the longest time Amarr had to completely sit out on small skirmish PvP unless they flew a damp-Curse. Caldari has on/off been considered a PvE-race and struggled to fulfil certain fleet roles. Minmatar and their projectiles were pretty much laughed at, Vagas and Rapiers did ok because of nano/90% webs, but they couldn't do frig or bs-combat in null, only pirates would use their bs.

i could go on, but you see the point. Not every race has always been able to fill all roles. And as I repeatedly stated here, I fly Gallente myself on multiple characters, I love the race, there's many ships I find very powerful and/or useful. The only time you find issues with Gallente is when you try to perform a role that you currently are not suitable for. But might have been, and/or might be in the future. Rails can't compete on mid-/longrange levels, blasters can compete on short-range. There's nothing else to it really. As I said before, if you bring a short-range weaponry to a mid- or longrange fight, you brought the wrong ship. As much as I, as a young pilot, thought every race should be competitive on all arenas at all time, so I could focus on "my" race, that just never worked like that in EVE and never will. Crosstrain, or fly another ship. Bring an Eris instead of your mega to your nullsec blobs. Or a sentry-dominix to POS shoots. And pick your targets when in frig-/cruiser-/bc small scale combat.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#895 - 2011-11-05 03:59:59 UTC
Shmekla wrote:
Creat Posudol wrote:

First of all: bad example! Interceptors aren't exactly the typical blaster boats even if they happen to fit blasters (like a Taranis). Interceptor fighting is even more problematic as a comparison since your controls are delayed (from the time you doublelick to turn to the time the ship actually reacts) and that makes a much bigger difference at 4 km/s compared to 1.5 km/s with a BS that needs at about half a minute to reach that speed.

How about we look at a thorax vs. rupture or mega vs. tempest? If I see the rupture/tempest come straight at me I can doubleclick in the reverse direction to "actively break" (twice as good deceleration compared to ctrl-space), if timed right he'll be right beside me when our speeds match, commence face melting. If I screw it up he'll have the advantage, as I said it comes down to pilot skill. Not as much with interceptors as the inherent control delays screw you much more than the actual opponent does.
If he decides to immediately try and keep range on me I'm screwed with just acceleration. I can't catch up, EVER. With straight line speed I'll at least get closer over time until I can start shooting, at which point he can try to break away, giving me trouble keeping up with his fast turns. But unless I'm in range I have a pretty easy time to compensate: If he is 15km away (I won't hurt him that much, even with large blasters) and does a 90° turn, I only need to compensate about 20° or so to adjust to a new interception point, which even with such a sluggish ship is not too big of a deal. If he then reverses I have to readjust (including distance I already closed to him) more like 60°, taking more time and speed, but I'm also closer and am therefore dealing at least some more damage.

But in any case: if I'm slow (web/scram), he's also slow for the same reason! Furthermore with a BS he WILL be in kill range! depending on the fit also mostly for cruiser sized ships/guns. The only time this is a serious problem is with frigs! Have I mentioned how badly that example represents what is generally referred to as blaster boats?

BTW: can't wait to get real-time joystick control! I do hope that happens some day soon...


Taranis is typical blaster user, as Thorax, Deimos or Mega. I put this example to show how easy speed can backfire on blaster boat, but you failed to catch my point.
Also in engagement if you will wait to see what opponent will do - you'll die. you take out of content my point about dashing, or even not read post clearly.


I understood you just fine. Also I've shown how to avoid that backfire you proposed as a pilot.
As a blaster pilot the only thing you want to do when you're far away from your target, is get close and stay close. How exactly you do that (approach, orbit or manual piloting) is up to you. There is no reason to "wait to see what opponent will do". Also you don't particularly care (or shouldn't if the weapon system works as intended) how you move, your opponent moves or how you move in relation to each other. Not as long as it means he is still close. He can try to outmaneuver your guns tracking, but that will cost him either dps or tank even in a Minmatar ship.

The problem with your example (which I meant to demonstrate) is that there is a VERY different effect with interceptors compared to cruisers, let alone BS. I'll explain it again. If you have 2 interceptors starting a fight at 30 km, if both fly towards each other it takes about 3-4 seconds for them to be on top of each other, which is barely enough time to react considering the control delay that comes with EVE (1-2 seconds from a command to the ship actually reacting). This is not the case with cruisers or BS at that distance. If we take the 2 pilots and put them in a BS at that distance, they'll take at least 15 seconds to reach each other (including acceleration) assuming a speed of 1500 m/s each (which is already above average). That is plenty of time to avoid the negative overshooting effect you described. Unless the Gallente pilot is completely incompetent he'll end up being close to his target (surely under 10 km) and roughly matching speed and direction of his target.

Shmekla wrote:
Creat Posudo wrote:

If he decides to immediately try and keep range on me I'm screwed with just acceleration. I can't catch up, EVER.
.

And again you failed to understand, that blaster boat must get speed faster than opponent. That mean in first seconds if your opponent traveled 5 km, you already covered 10.

If you bet on speed that mean blaster boat need to go faster than minmatars, and way faster because blaster boats must catch target before dies. But speed is for minmatars.... so there is a little contradiction, isn't it?


Yes! Now you're getting it! That would be the idea. If you haven't gotten that from my last posts so far please go back and read them again (on the last 3 pages or so). It would be the proposition that Minmatar are still pretty fast, but most of all AGILE. Gallente will take the new crown for speed, but will actually get their already not-great agility nerfed. This would allow blasters to work since you can get into range. It would also, as I've stated many times, cause pilot skill to be the deciding factor in battles.

It is of course fine if you disagree, but please explain what part of my suggestion wouldn't work as intended (I'm sure I overlooked something somewhere). I've explained why yours wouldn't work for the example you mentioned above and what other problems I see with it (Gallente can only engage if already near blaster range).
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#896 - 2011-11-05 04:58:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Creat Posudol
Ford Utama wrote:
I'm just going to throw this out there, and I'm not sure how practical it would be. Bear with me.

What about introducing a series of "thruster drones" that would produce either a reverse stasis web like effect(increasing your ships velocity, and perhaps agility) specifically for the Gallente hull? Alternatively, you could convert the current light, medium, and heavy drones by adding an ability for the drones to attach to your Gallente hull, adding thrust. This would remove a portion of Gallente's DPS while in use, but would provide a speed boost to close the gap. Furthermore, in my eyes the drones could still be targeted while attached to your hull, and as such an enemy could counteract them, if they chose to go after the drones instead of your ship.

Keep in mind that you could justify that these drones to be used only in this way for Gallente, or CCP could make them for all races, *but* with a larger bonus to the effects of speed on the Gallente because of their drone background. You could also change that entirely, and allow drones to attach or interface with other races hulls, but to give them some other race independent bonus, like cap recharging rate for Amarr, increased Missile Velocity for Caldari, etc.

As for balance or overfit issues, CCP could introduce either a limit to how much one hull could be boosted, so that the effect would not be overpowered.

The idea here for me is that instead of using your drones for their typical role, you would have them attach and utilize their onboard microwarpdrive to provide additional thrust to the host ship. Obviously, this is just a thought, and as such I was throwing it out to see if more creative minds could find any way to make this work.


EDIT: I've pretty much completely changed my mind on this, see post #908 for why exactly. I'll of course leave this for reference though....

I fear this might be way too much (programming) work to be implemented for the winter expansion, but it's nothing short of brilliant if you ask me!
There would most likely not even be a need to restrict this mechanic to Gallente or give them special bonuses, since the generally have the biggest drone bays, getting the biggest drones for their class and with that the most thrust. Most Gallente BS can field a full set of Heavies (except the poor Hype), [relevant] cruisers can usually do the same with mediums and frigs mostly have a least a couple as well (not sure there is anything needed for frigs though). Depending on how big the thrust is and assuming the enemy would also attach them to gain thrust as long as there is distance it would have to be carefully balanced but I think this might be the perfect way to turn the one advantage Gallente has into speed. Lights shouldn't provide a significant boost to BS, and only about 20% of their potential boost to cruisers. Similar for mediums and BS.

Basically, limit it to certain amount of thrust per drone attached, similar to afterburners/MWDs: Depending on a ships mass it would reduce speed boost if it gets to heavy. I can imagine that a flat speed addition in m/s could be preferable over a percentage (even though this is rarely - if ever - done in EVE), even more shifting the advantage towards Gallente.

Some examples I just pulled out of thin air: Let every drone give a speed boost of 10 m/s. This could already be balanced in such a way that mediums only give 8 m/s to BC, 2-3 m/s for BS. It would also only give 10 m/s if attached to a frig. A light would give only frigs 10 m/s, maybe destroyers as well. Let cruisers still be boosted by 3-4 m/s and BS effectively not at all (maybe 0.5 m/s).
Just to get the idea, it can easily be scaled up or down of course. Also it can be turned into a % boost like ABs/MWDs and roughly tailored to the average ship speed of an intended class in a similar way.

It could also be a bonus that needs to achieve 5 drones of appropriate size to be effective. Maybe (from 1 to 5 drones) provide 1, 2, 4, 6, 20 m/s. That's for all of course, not per drone.

Yea, others also use drones but not to the same extent. If suggestions above are followed this should give Gallente a sufficient speed advantage as long as drones are attached to get in range. Then they can be released to inflict damage or stay attached to keep range. If they are released and need to be reattached, this should take a couple of seconds to do so switching can't be done instantly and becomes a tactical decision. It also can't be so long that nobody ever detaches them either of course.

The only real problem is that of all the Minmatar ships the fastest BS (typhoon, 130 m/s raw) also has the biggest drone bay (175) and bandwidth (125). Maybe a gallente-ship-specific bonus would be needed after all. Just a "negative role bonus" on that ship would also do, as this problem exists in no other ship class (at least not with the proposed 5-drone-scaling above).

Yes, I'm aware it would effectively reduce the speed of some ships who happen to have rather small drone bays (Maller) or boost those with relatively large ones for their class that are NOT Gallente (Harbinger). I find it hard to judge all those effects to be honest.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#897 - 2011-11-05 05:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Misanth wrote:
Mariner6 wrote:
Bummer, I was hoping to see a CCP response today. Even a couple of lines can help focus the discussion.

Things are starting to look a bit grim with the silence. Wonder what we are going to see. The idea of messing with rigs seems like a poor idea. It affects too many aspects of the game and in the end will only make the other platforms that much better over the hybrid boats, particularly if Amarr gets a speed bonus from changes to armor rigs and the shield tanked Minmatar boats don't get a sig radius increase from shield rigs, because they already enjoy a very low sig radius to start with. Messing with rigs just impacts so many other aspects of ship designs of all the races. The changes need to be Gallente boats specifically. Caldari long range rails I think is simpler to deal with directly to the rail gun stats.

I think the most succinct argument to date is that there is just no good reason to fly Gallente boats. Whether you are talking solo/small groups or in bigger fleets. They tend to be more expensive and every time you go into a fight, you are committed 100%. All the other races can fight aligned or kite out of damage and warp. Even fighting within single point range is viable and can be exited from with MWD. Gallente fight inside scram/web/neut range. The cost/benefit just isn't there. In the POP,POP, POP of fleet fights its often very frustrating for a Gallente pilot to try and get into range of primary as targets change. Right as you get there, primary goes pop and now new primary is far away again. Even with frigate tackler support most Hurricanes have such high tracking that if frigs try to tackle with a scram on, they die. But scram is what is need to slow the immense speed of these ships.


It's because you try to use short-range weaponry in a medium range engagement. The boost need to be to rails, the solution is not to give blasters more range. I'm a t2 large blaster pilot myself, I use them on multiple characters regulary, I love them, they are ******* awsome and really powerful. If people stopped trying to use blasters in medium- to longrange envinronment, and if fails/rails actually worked, this would be a non-issue.

Lasers are a medium range weaponry. Projectiles fight in falloff, they don't do their EFT damage, they usually do 40-60% of that in a regular fight. Blasters do their full damage IF they get in range. Rails on the other hand, are underwhelming. No alpha, poor damage, everything.



I dont know why everyone is ignoring the gorilla in the room.

1.) Rails have to be competive with in 150km not 200km.

2.) All Hybirds have to do alot more dmg to over come the Huge Kin/Therm rest patch.

3.) Blaster boats only have two possable fixs. Ether inc Falloff by alot or give them the fastest ships in the game. No one realy wants a ship were you cant hit the target or get to the target 80% of the time.

Or

4.) Rebalnce the Kin/Therm rest and spread it out over the other rest. And undo the Web/Scrable changes. And Hybirds are fixed.

Pluse the changes you already have plained as thoughs are just mostly much need and long over do fitting fixes and all benift from the also much needed and long over do tech 2 ammo fixs.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#898 - 2011-11-05 07:48:40 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Mariner6 wrote:
Bummer, I was hoping to see a CCP response today. Even a couple of lines can help focus the discussion.

Things are starting to look a bit grim with the silence. Wonder what we are going to see. The idea of messing with rigs seems like a poor idea. It affects too many aspects of the game and in the end will only make the other platforms that much better over the hybrid boats, particularly if Amarr gets a speed bonus from changes to armor rigs and the shield tanked Minmatar boats don't get a sig radius increase from shield rigs, because they already enjoy a very low sig radius to start with. Messing with rigs just impacts so many other aspects of ship designs of all the races. The changes need to be Gallente boats specifically. Caldari long range rails I think is simpler to deal with directly to the rail gun stats.

I think the most succinct argument to date is that there is just no good reason to fly Gallente boats. Whether you are talking solo/small groups or in bigger fleets. They tend to be more expensive and every time you go into a fight, you are committed 100%. All the other races can fight aligned or kite out of damage and warp. Even fighting within single point range is viable and can be exited from with MWD. Gallente fight inside scram/web/neut range. The cost/benefit just isn't there. In the POP,POP, POP of fleet fights its often very frustrating for a Gallente pilot to try and get into range of primary as targets change. Right as you get there, primary goes pop and now new primary is far away again. Even with frigate tackler support most Hurricanes have such high tracking that if frigs try to tackle with a scram on, they die. But scram is what is need to slow the immense speed of these ships.


It's because you try to use short-range weaponry in a medium range engagement. The boost need to be to rails, the solution is not to give blasters more range. I'm a t2 large blaster pilot myself, I use them on multiple characters regulary, I love them, they are ******* awsome and really powerful. If people stopped trying to use blasters in medium- to longrange envinronment, and if fails/rails actually worked, this would be a non-issue.

Lasers are a medium range weaponry. Projectiles fight in falloff, they don't do their EFT damage, they usually do 40-60% of that in a regular fight. Blasters do their full damage IF they get in range. Rails on the other hand, are underwhelming. No alpha, poor damage, everything.



I dont know why everyone is ignoring the gorilla in the room.

1.) Rails have to be competive with in 150km not 200km.

2.) All Hybirds have to do alot more dmg to over come the Huge Kin/Therm rest patch.

3.) Blaster boats only have two possable fixs. Ether inc Falloff by alot or give them the fastest ships in the game. No one realy wants a ship were you cant hit the target or get to the target 80% of the time.

Or

4.) Rebalnce the Kin/Therm rest and spread it out over the other rest. And undo the Web/Scrable changes. And Hybirds are fixed.

Pluse the changes you already have plained as thoughs are just mostly much need and long over do fitting fixes and all benift from the also much needed and long over do tech 2 ammo fixs.


Whatever they decide to do it will have to be a buff to the gun itself. If they buff the ships speed or drones most gallente ships will still prefer autocannons/ arty over blasters/rails because the buffs will transfer.

If they cannot find a way to buff blasters/rails without relying on ship/drone buffs too much nothing will change. At that point its a concept design problem and I say take blasters and rails back to the drawing board and redesign them from scratch.

Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#899 - 2011-11-05 10:12:35 UTC
Keen Fallsword wrote:
Well ITS NOT enough. Its good starting point for next tweaks. And Please CCP give this gig to the guy who was "playing / trying to play" Gallente. If not this revmap will be rubbish.

Take this very serious coz lots of ppl wants to play gallente. If you loose this time. game is over, but you know that..

We need better range on hybrids. Now you are giving us something but its not enough with this revmap Gallente will be still balls suckers.

How to Christ Sake Gallente could won a WAR ? Any WAR ...

Ships are slow and range is close so WTF ? You made lots of mistakes with others revmaps and now sorry to say but you must "drink this beer"


I wasnt playing some time coz Im pissed on you Im going back coz Winter Expansion as you said will be about hybrids and space stuff. If Hybrids going to suck I'll quit again sorry...

Take Care and Mucho Luck coz clock is ticking . tic . tic


Well, they are French. They are probably supposed to surrender immediately.Twisted

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#900 - 2011-11-05 10:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Breaking news!!!
Another ridiculous idea from CCP against a gallentean ship.
They removed Talos web bonus and removed the 25m3 dronebay and they give a small tracking bonus for Talos!!! lol
Who want to flight a new design tier 3 gallentean ship which cant reach his target but he have good tracking ???
I never understood logic of CCP. They realy want to fix the gallente ships ?