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Feedback for Hacking/Archaeology feature from 27/5/13 onward

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Author
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2013-05-27 16:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Habakuk
Hi,

This feedback thread is for the hacking and archaeology sites by Team Prototype Rocks - keep feedback on the scattering mechanic, site layout, hacking minigame please :)

We have taken your feedback on board and made some changes to the pace of the feature and the loot amounts within the scattering. It would be great to get your feedback on the updated version on SISI - both from the mass test today and from playing the sites yourselves.

Please keep the feedback constructive and give specific examples/suggestions to help us fully understand any concerns you may have.

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

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Game Designer for EVE Online

Team Astro Sparkle

Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#2 - 2013-05-27 16:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Kyle
I'm working on this today in low sec and updated it during TQ's downtime today.

Loot tables are improved. With two people I am getting an average haul of what I would get by myself on TQ atm. I don't feel that these are where they should be for the work that goes into getting them. Also, I'd like to see more salvage bits in general.

NPCs are still randomly in site when I start.

There are fewer cans and two people can scoop them up unless (read below)

I dislike that data sites are still tucked up against large collidable structures. With the spew mechanism you slam into the structure trying to chase the cans. The data site structure itself is MUCH larger than the relic site structure. The relic site structure is the size of my Legion while the Data site structure is massive.

The NPCs spawning on failed hacks are not leaving wrecks.

A RELIC site I just did some cans exploded after 1 failed hack attempt. Out of the 4 cans, one hacked the first time, 2 exploded after 1 failed hack, 1 let me hack it twice.

I am getting the firewall/virus icons not showing up. The node looks black like nothing is there but if I click it again my stats are going down and it shows me fighting something. I've seen this about 4 times so far between relic and data sites.

A scanning bug but might as well list it here. Once I ignored a site I scanned, when I now jump into new systems the scanner does not update with the signatures and instead shows no signature. It did this for quite a while and I had to close and reopen it to see the correct list of unscanned signatures.

No gatefire with the new gates. That seems as if it was over looked.

I noticed on the old thread that Soundwave said he found the sites to easy. I'm not finding this at all. I fail a lot of attempts with V's and T2 equipment. I don't think that someone not invested in the development and creation of this is going to find it as easy. I also wound up teaming up with someone and he had Hacking and Archaeology to III which caused him to fail a lot of the sites that we found.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

blink alt
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-05-27 16:56:37 UTC  |  Edited by: blink alt
I hate to say it but I feel like the null sites are way too good, From the sites I ran it comes down to at least a 50% chance of getting the good drop from any giving spew container, which seems like a reasonable rate to me with how good the drops are in general. My biggest concern as of right now is the actual icons for the cans that are ejected, they are quite small and there have been several occasions where I could of swore I clicked on it and then realize that it was a missclicked several seconds later which reduced my overall ability to scoop 50% of the cans.

When it comes to layout and graphics I am having the biggest issues with Central [Faction] Sparking Transmitter. The structure is so bright and the position of where the cans get jettison make it very difficult to scoop the cans on this one becaue it is very difficult to see the icons.

I really hope there are no plans to remove the ability to cargo scan the spew containers. It is wonderful how much using a cargo scanner will increase completion time due to skipping low value spew containers.
CCP Bayesian
#4 - 2013-05-27 17:00:33 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
I am getting the firewall/virus icons not showing up. The node looks black like nothing is there but if I click it again my stats are going down and it shows me fighting something. I've seen this about 4 times so far between relic and data sites.


This is a known defect but thanks for confirming it as we've only seen it the once internally.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#5 - 2013-05-27 17:06:10 UTC
First issue I've noticed is that collision detection and distance measurement seems to be off for hacking containers - I can orbit a container at 1km and still be inside the spinning rings of the structure. At 500m, I collide with the structure as I orbit.

Will update post as I find more. xD

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

blink alt
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-05-27 17:06:11 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
A RELIC site I just did some cans exploded after 1 failed hack attempt. Out of the 4 cans, one hacked the first time, 2 exploded after 1 failed hack, 1 let me hack it twice.


Would this be due to previous attempts by other pilots?
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#7 - 2013-05-27 17:11:13 UTC
blink alt wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
A RELIC site I just did some cans exploded after 1 failed hack attempt. Out of the 4 cans, one hacked the first time, 2 exploded after 1 failed hack, 1 let me hack it twice.


Would this be due to previous attempts by other pilots?


I don't think so. I am opening the systems as I enter. Also, when you warp out the sites explode.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Azicus Masrama
Interspatial Frequencies
#8 - 2013-05-27 17:13:45 UTC
I think that the new ng mini game will be a great addition to the expansion, the minigame was really something, hope more exploration thing come out with more suprising features, keep up the good work ccp!
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#9 - 2013-05-27 17:24:50 UTC
blink alt wrote:
I hate to say it but I feel like the null sites are way too good, From the sites I ran it comes down to at least a 50% chance of getting the good drop from any giving spew container, which seems like a reasonable rate to me with how good the drops are in general. My biggest concern as of right now is the actual icons for the cans that are ejected, they are quite small and there have been several occasions where I could of swore I clicked on it and then realize that it was a missclicked several seconds later which reduced my overall ability to scoop 50% of the cans.

When it comes to layout and graphics I am having the biggest issues with Central [Faction] Sparking Transmitter. The structure is so bright and the position of where the cans get jettison make it very difficult to scoop the cans on this one becaue it is very difficult to see the icons.

I really hope there are no plans to remove the ability to cargo scan the spew containers. It is wonderful how much using a cargo scanner will increase completion time due to skipping low value spew containers.


Share some of this too-goodness with the low sec sites please.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Nicen Jehr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#10 - 2013-05-27 17:52:15 UTC
The only minor issue I encounterd was when someone ECM bursted the fleet as we destroyed the tower. I re-locked the POS.

For about five seconds, after completing my lock, the tower showed up in my targets list without its shield/armor/structure bars. It was just the circular icon of the tower, and I think the distance to target. And maybe my drones icon underneath it. No screenshot, sry.

After five seconds the bars showed up and it looked normal.

After the fight I got podded. The ship destruction, pod ejection, and pod death sequence was great!

Only problem was - my corpse had breasts, which you can clearly see is a mistake!
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-05-27 18:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Solaris
I'll try to write up a proper feedback post tomorrow, but for now I'd like to propose a change to virus supressors.

Currently they reduce your hacking strength by 20 (as far as I can tell.) This means that in a bonused ship such as an Imicus, your virus strength is cut from 40 to 20, somewhat annoying, but not too bad.

Tonight, I was hacking in a Vexor, an unbonused ship, meaning I only had 30 virus strength, and a single virus supressor cut it to 10, which is crippling.

In one hacking attempt, I was able to progress 2 nodes (no other way to go), before running into a virus supressor, the only option was to repeatedly attack it until it was dead, and due to only having 10 virus strength, I was reduced to I believe 5 (or maybe 15) virus coherance by the time it was gone, and I'd only progressed 3 nodes into the system, meaning the hack attempt was doomed from the start.

What I'd like to suggest is changing them from being a static 20 virus strength cut, to a 50% cut.

In the case of the bonused ship, a single supressor would still cut your virus strength from 40 to 20, but in an unbonused ship, it would cut your virus strength to 15 instead of 10, which at least somewhat less crippling.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#12 - 2013-05-27 18:34:53 UTC
Oh yes. It would be nice if the new containers grayed out after they were accessed like containers do.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

JustinD Snodgrass
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-05-27 18:52:04 UTC
Test went well but when i went in to the fight all of the drones lagged me out really bad ended up dying cause of lag. couldnt do much at all even lost my pod.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#14 - 2013-05-27 19:11:46 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
I am getting the firewall/virus icons not showing up. The node looks black like nothing is there but if I click it again my stats are going down and it shows me fighting something. I've seen this about 4 times so far between relic and data sites.


This is a known defect but thanks for confirming it as we've only seen it the once internally.


http://imgur.com/jTDLbZf

That is a picture of one of my invisible nodes I just hit. I currently have the hacking window still open. I stopped to post this. I killed/conquered/solved this one butt he node is not illuminated.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#15 - 2013-05-27 19:31:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Torgeir Hekard
I've done some hacking yesterday and on today's test.

1) Yesterday I haven't found a single radar/mag site in Heimatar near Rens. And I've sweeped about 10-15 systems with sec<0.9. Then I jumped to sansha space (Derelik? The region where the Jark solar system is) and got several systems with mini sites in a row. Please check site spawns in Heimatar.

2) The sites in sansha space were much much simplier than on today's test. I've ran across a sansha mainframe yesterday, and it was a walk in a park. Angel mainframes today were much more challenging. I believe the reason is the virus supressor thingie or something like that - the one which lowers your attack when encountered. Sansha sites were high on antiviruses, but I had 30 attack and was oneshotting them without taking any damage back. Basically they were just another pass-through nodes and were not contributing to the site difficulty in any meaningful way.

3) I must confess the hacking mechanics are uncompetitive and boring. Basically if you success or not relies on your ship and random distribution of defensive nodes. The "winning" strategies (that is, ways to minimize the node loss to uncovered defences) are figured out in 2 games, and there's nothing you can do with attack/defence balance but pray you don't step on th suppressor. TL;DR there isn't much player skill involved in the minigame. I suggest considering shifting the focus to some kind of a race against time and easier noticeable but active defences (inb4 pacman).

4) On loot. Yesterday I've done 4 or 5 mags (relics?) in hisec and was getting like 10K worth of loot on each site. Not much improvement. Radars were a bit better - similar loot to curent TQ, but more time spent on doing sites. Someone told in the fleet today that the profession site changes were aimed on making them woth doing, because now hey are worthless. Well, not entirely so. While hisec mags are indeed crap (and nullsec radars are crap compared to everything else nullsec), hisec radars on TQ are a decent way for a character with low SP (esp. with bad attack skills but decent astrometrics - I've got exactly that kind of an alt) to earn some good money. A good radar site can net you up to 30 mil, and you usually can get about 100mil in a couple of hours with a non-combat character. I would not call that worthless. On the contrary, they are going that way now. ISK/Hour seems worse on new radars, and you need to do them in an exploration frig, while on TQ you can combine doing radars with doing combat plexes on the same ship (I use gila. BTW it beats T3s on 3/10s and 4/10s hands down. The only advantage they have is the scan strength bonus, and you don't need high probe strength to find highsec sites. And they get banned from hisec sites, and gila still can enter them. Oh, and if you ban faction cruisers, then Ishtar is next on line... And then there were none. That's quite a slippery slope right there).

5) On can scattering. Manageable in explofrigs (I bet heavier ships ragequit on trying to go around structures). The only problem I have is they go all chameleon on me and I can't for the love of God understand what that means. I mean they seem to change colours all together, and that does not seem to affect the ability to loot them. Is that a TTL indicator?
Veyer Erastus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-05-27 19:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Veyer Erastus
Not to repeat others, i have one really major problems with hacking/arch as it is.
It is weight. Every site usually has a bunch of objects to hack, but you inventory is limited. Often it would fill up just with one hack and will need to warpout to station..only for the site to despawn. Not even talking about if there is nowhere to warpout to. The weight should be adjusted.

Speaking generally, there are many bad things about hacking as it is.

Hacking itself is very random. The Deus Ex hacking game(from which eve hacking was clearly ripped out) was strategic. You could thought about strategy, which nodes to take, and which to leave. In current hacking there is only one thing that really affects the game - luck. Which is a bad.

And even if you succeed the clicking game starts. I won't say it's that bad, but it's really not-like-eve. It's a game of who clicks faster. Something you expect of a cheap EA game, not Eve. To add constructive feedback - it's not intuitive. In order to grab maximum you need to know exactly when you get this small container. It's the matter of seconds. it's really hard to judge if it's already in your inventory and you should click on the next. And that's if you can grab it at all. One time they all bursted into opposite direction of mine and i barely had the time to accelerate and get a couple before they disappeared.

And then comes the PvP. It was already the hard, cold world before. But now, with the fact that all signatures can be seen on overlay it's even easier to scan someone doing the site - not helping the fact that we must concentrate on the Game of Clicks.

So. You hacked successfully. You got so much containers. And you weren't ganked. Hooray. Ah, no. Stop. What is this loot? Why is it so bad and cost nothing? I heard guys in sov null got really good loot, but i wasn't so successful in low/WH. They weren't worth the trouble fighting sleepers. Not even considering the dangers of TQ WHs. I guess it was just my luck. Twice my luck. Because first i was unlucky with the hacking object itself, and then i got unlucky getting the wrong containers.

Luck, again and again and again. Luck hacking, container luck, luck playing Game of Clicks. I really believe there is too much luck involved. It's not Las Vegas. It's Eve.

PS. Just hour after writing the post i cleared a couple of hack sites in WH and got loot for totally about 3mil.
CCP Bayesian
#17 - 2013-05-27 19:40:33 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
I am getting the firewall/virus icons not showing up. The node looks black like nothing is there but if I click it again my stats are going down and it shows me fighting something. I've seen this about 4 times so far between relic and data sites.


This is a known defect but thanks for confirming it as we've only seen it the once internally.


http://imgur.com/jTDLbZf

That is a picture of one of my invisible nodes I just hit. I currently have the hacking window still open. I stopped to post this. I killed/conquered/solved this one butt he node is not illuminated.


Awesome, it's a graphical bug that we'll squash before release. :)

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2013-05-27 20:33:49 UTC
Had a rat spawn on me upon failure in a Central Guristas Sparking Transmitter site. I bug reported that one.

A different point regarding the GST and that style of site - please, please do away with the giant infernal death glow thing. The structures and spinning doodads are fine, though they can screw you over if the can spews out the other side of the structure, but the infernal death glow thing makes it extremely difficult to even see the cans at all, which is the "wrong" kind of difficulty in my opinion. Blink

http://i.imgur.com/FhZOW4A.png Picture to illustrate what I mean.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

CCP Bayesian
#19 - 2013-05-27 20:51:11 UTC
Noted and will pass on to the team in the morning.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#20 - 2013-05-27 22:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nam Dnilb
Is this now supposed to be near release? I am asking, because every single Blood raider prof. site I found today in low an 0.0 has still all the stuff clustered in one spot. One site was so bad I couldn't even get an Imicus close enough to the cans.

edit: OK, had rat spawn in a data site, it's elite AND since it is a "MiniProfession cruiser" doesn't show on overviews by default. I am not testing this until someone writes up what is supposed to happen and what's possibly a bug.
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