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Try our new hacking/archaeology sites!

First post First post
Author
kyofu
Praetorian Black Guard
#301 - 2013-05-24 18:00:41 UTC
M'aak'han wrote:
Luc Chastot wrote:
Recovery should be automatic when you are 2000m or less away from a container, but still limited to 1 at a time.


Here, listen to this man CCP, if you really want to keep the piñata in. With loot equally distributed amongst the mini-cans it should work. Of course, multi-boxers will have an easier time, but better that than turning most of the players away from profession sites.

Still, a complete removal of this mechanic on a successful hack would be better. As others have already stated, the current system looks more like a punishment than a reward.



Dear CCP,

I hate the loot Pinata, as does I believe the entire posting player base. I think adding a new skill or two specifically relevant to the hacking game, and adding loot cache type nodes and other interesting features to the mini-game would be a far more interesting way to approach it.

However if nothing we can say or do will convince you how unsuited and just bad the spew mechanic is then at least pay attention to the quoted posts as a potential compromise.

Thanks.

-Kyo
dethleffs
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#302 - 2013-05-24 19:10:46 UTC
Christ. This is depressing.
The hacking game is ok, but theres no sense of direction.

Sites where far and few in between - found one buggy site:
Sansha regional data fortress - cant reach the spew containers - bumping off an amarr station wreck

I made 32 jumps, found 5 sites made 600,000 isk.

Other things I noticed where:

the radial menu where you enable the scanner overlay never closes if you pick an option, so you have to press escape.

Scan results lose focus and thus wont show up after a completed scan cycle. You have to click on them to see them in the system map again.

The lootpuke mechanic is horrible: combine low fps clouds (i know that will be fixed) + eve's horrible bumping mechanic on structures + maniacally clicking little icons in space and you get by far the worst mechanic ccp ever invented for exploration.

Its worse than making hundreds of bookmarks to get a no overlap probe placement and have to carry 24 different kinds of probes with you to wait on timers exceeding 2 minutes to get **** loot.

Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#303 - 2013-05-24 19:30:00 UTC
Talking about radial menu. That's another thing that makes the loot spew so crap as it constantly pops up for me when i try to get the tiny cans.
Narjack
CragCO
#304 - 2013-05-24 19:39:13 UTC
CCP,

You want to make exploration a profession? Well, it kind of was already was no? However, your system of taking all the rats out, except WH's (and thank you for at least that ) has the effect of negating a big part of any profession. That part is progression. Increasingly more difficult rats in sites meant you needed better ships to do them in. More SP. Now you can run it all in a covops. Too little risk for too much reward. Nothing to really look forward to over time. It will get stale quickly. Great for new players perhaps...at the expense of your tried and true stalwart subscribers. And over time, those new guys will get bored with it.

I guess the mini-game is here to say, though I would have been much happier with you guys just building a bunch of new cool sites to go out and find, or maybe some kind of uber dangerous WH space that has no moons, no planets, nothing but deadly sites to run. I don't know, like stuff to..... explore. It would be nice if you guys filled out some of the loot table and created a whole new bunch of faction drone stuff as many of the non-rated drone sites are currently not worth doing.

I mean we have all these new cool drone damage amplifiers --- why not some other meta versions? Same for the other mods.
How about meta versions for the ASB's, MJD, etc etc etc. There is a lot of content you could just add to exploration and it would have been very fun. What sucks is repetition and too few sites. I would prefer more sites, even at less individual reward, but with much more variety. There are a lot of super hard non-rated sites that have crap loot though they are harder than some 10/10's though respectively lower rated. Some balancing of combat sites as some are WAY harder --- like neuting blood raiders are in some sites much harder than say many Angel sites (and certainly no corresponding increase in reward.) How about more escalation that you know...actually escalate. In null sec these come with some HUGE risk to run (well, at least in NPC null, I guess not in care bear null.) Would love to do more of those...but often not worth the squeeze.

All it needed was more content, new mods, make drones worth doing, and some new space...some cool uber dangerous.. unlivable WH space to explore.

Not a mini-game and a horrible, terrible, annoyingly bad twitch grab the can game.


Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#305 - 2013-05-24 19:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Abrazzar wrote:
I say it again: Remove the piñata, remove the garbage, focus on the hacking game.

  • nodes in the hacking game add a item from a specific loot table to the stash
  • hacking the core allows you to release the stash or dig deeper into the system
  • deeper levels have greater difficulty, depth of the system depends on the site/security/object
  • failing in the hack locks the site, no rats, no explosions, just system lockdown
  • failing the hack forfeits the stash, permadeath, a failure penalty you feel
  • other players can boost the hacking player using a script on the hacking module
  • can only activate one module on another player per ship
  • allows taking turns with the hacking game without compromising the fit
  • makes co-op more profitable as boosted hackers can go in deeper/open more items/finish the hack quicker

And this is just from the top of my head.


A cooperative hack could benefit from multiple human players by having a larger network with nodes that will expire once exposed. So it becomes a race against time. Multiple players would end up entering the network from distant locations, immediately increasing the chance that the control node for this level will be discovered before the time out.

I'm not sure what plans are in store, but having nodes which increase the expiry timer speed, slow it down, would make the game more tactical. Having some idea of what might be in the next node would be useful too, as would the ability for the player to drop firewalls of their own to block off other players, or scramblers to re-hide a node that had previously been exposed. This would turn into a competitive clicking contest, but at least the targets aren't moving, and interacting with the targets isn't overloading the "set a course in this direction" gesture for ship control.

I imagine multiplayer hacking as being somewhat akin to Mario Karts: your friends can help you by defusing firewalls from two sides at once, your enemies can hinder you by directly attacking your virus, installing firewalls, or aiding the relic/data site defenses.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#306 - 2013-05-24 19:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
Just tried a hacking site. I don't want to judge after one short test, but I did not have the impression that personal skill is required or useful. I just click nodes and then find the system core or I find lots of firewalls. I always left firewalls alone until all other routes were exhausted, to find repair mods and other utility nodes first. That's about the only tactical possibility I can see so far, however. Rest appears to be blind luck.

Still, it's not too bad and an improvement over the non-game hacking was before.

The loot from that hisec site was laughable, but then I never got anything useful from a hisec site on TQ either, years back when I still did them.

The loot release mechanic is not too bad. Yes, for the record, I don't hate the loot release mechanic :p If my impressions are correct, it is not as twitchy as it first appears, because you can only grab one can every few seconds anyway (you click "take" when it's in range, then your ship uses a kind of shiny tractor beam and pulls the can in). Fast-clicking several cans in rapid succession did not seem to speed up the process, though I could be wrong about that.

All in all, collecting the loot requires a lot less fast reactions than doing pvp, so if you hate it so much, you're probably a goddamn carebear P

Maybe a bug: Radial menu and also selected item menu for the loot cans does not have the "take" option, only right-clicking them works. That's weird and inconsistent, needs to change.

I had four hacking modules fitted, but it seemed that one module would have worked just as well, activating more than one on the can did not increase my virus strength. Is that confirmed?

What still bothers me is that those sites are best done in a super-cheap frigate, so no incentive to hunt down explorers in low/null/wh. Why don't you make the analyzer modules a lot more expensive, so they at least provide some value. T1 analyzer should be around 10m and T2 30-40m each (if you really need only one on a ship).

.

Wasilah
Little Red X
#307 - 2013-05-24 20:20:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Wasilah
just wanted to update, the heron does add 10 to virus str so that part is working ok.

with that said i just wanna say really guys?

needless to say, i did not win that one.

edit: if you look in the centerish there is a utility there, i noticed that even though it's "hidden" because of the restoration node if you try and click on it all the restoration nodes will heal.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#308 - 2013-05-24 20:23:02 UTC
Lol. What was the name of the site, maybe "The Pentagon"? Lol

.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#309 - 2013-05-24 20:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
what if the container spewing thing would be the mechanic for a partially or fully failed hacking attempt instead of a fully successful hack. (since players don't like it very much already it would be a fairly well accepted penalty i think)

if the game could be set up to have three endings: full success, partial success and failure, success would give you the full container, partial success the container spew scenario and failure nothing.

the full success scenario should be quite hard to achieve, and maybe easier to achieve if you bring friends (this would bring the multiplayer aspect back).

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#310 - 2013-05-24 20:33:24 UTC
Wasilah wrote:
with that said i just wanna say really guys?

needless to say, i did not win that one.

Q: Why does the Antivirus have 360 coherency?
A: Cause when you see it you turn 360° and walk away.

Sorry, could not resist.
Energetic Monk
Wayforward Emergent Technologies
#311 - 2013-05-24 20:39:14 UTC
After testing analyzing in a Cosmos site i will conclude that my decision to drop hacking/analyzing wasn't to hasty. Those that have stockpiled Cosmos stuff will soon be rewarded, since noone in their right mind will ever be doing a Cosmos site after a stint or two in a Cosmos site.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#312 - 2013-05-24 20:57:15 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Just tried a hacking site. I don't want to judge after one short test, but I did not have the impression that personal skill is required or useful. I just click nodes and then find the system core or I find lots of firewalls. I always left firewalls alone until all other routes were exhausted, to find repair mods and other utility nodes first. That's about the only tactical possibility I can see so far, however. Rest appears to be blind luck.


Thers definitely some tactical aspect to how it's now in nullsec sites. For instance if you open an antivirus node you have to find tools first and destroy it before you can think of finding and hacking the core. Gets worse if you happen to open two antivirus nodes. The "bad nodes" also seem to be more prevalent on nodes that are surrounded by other nodes so look careful and find a way around the outskirts. at least that's my tactic for now.

Quote:
The loot release mechanic is not too bad. Yes, for the record, I don't hate the loot release mechanic :p If my impressions are correct, it is not as twitchy as it first appears, because you can only grab one can every few seconds anyway (you click "take" when it's in range, then your ship uses a kind of shiny tractor beam and pulls the can in). Fast-clicking several cans in rapid succession did not seem to speed up the process, though I could be wrong about that.

All in all, collecting the loot requires a lot less fast reactions than doing pvp, so if you hate it so much, you're probably a goddamn carebear P


I think you just randomly clicked cans. They have names that indicate possible good loot or crap. So while one can gets tractored you're busy hovering over the others to find the next good one just in time. It gets unnerving when the camera moves around, you're stuck in geometry or your ship overshoots the cans. Forget about checking dscan while doing this.

Quote:
What still bothers me is that those sites are best done in a super-cheap frigate, so no incentive to hunt down explorers in low/null/wh. Why don't you make the analyzer modules a lot more expensive, so they at least provide some value. T1 analyzer should be around 10m and T2 30-40m each (if you really need only one on a ship).


Easy targets with possibly juicy loot in the cargo. The cap rig and faction pos bpc's should go for quite a sum. At least until the market has adjusted to the supply.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#313 - 2013-05-24 20:58:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
While objectively there is no difference between the normal loot luck factor we have now (what there is to find in a site) and what this new system brings (we can not get eveything, and the good stuff SURELY was in the cans I didn't get!!! *cry*), I think it might be wiser for CCP to change this. Most people can't stand the thought that they just "won" and still don't get everything. I foresee riots over this.Unjustified and dumb riots, but riots nonetheless.

edit
Johan Toralen wrote:
~snip~


Good points, will look out for that next time I try.

.

Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#314 - 2013-05-24 21:12:23 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
While objectively there is no difference between the normal loot luck factor we have now (what there is to find in a site) and what this new system brings (we can not get eveything, and the good stuff SURELY was in the cans I didn't get!!! *cry*), I think it might be wiser for CCP to change this. Most people can't stand the thought that they just "won" and still don't get everything. I foresee riots over this.Unjustified and dumb riots, but riots nonetheless.

Good points, will look out for that next time I try.


The problem is that the riots will be of CCP's making and very easily avoidable. That is the true shame of it.

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Wasilah
Little Red X
#315 - 2013-05-24 21:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Wasilah
can we PLEASE for the love of god remove the mechanic that makes the site despawn if you leave it?!?!?!?!?!?!

had a cruiser spawn after a failed hacking attempt. I couldn't kill it in my heron and it couldn't kill me but rather than just tanking it i went to refit my ship for more dps and missed out on 80% of the site because it despawned.


Also I can;t really tell but is there any benifit to opening the whole hacking map? I've been doing it but i can't count how many times i could have just killed the core and won but ended up losing because i went to open the whole map.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#316 - 2013-05-24 21:26:19 UTC
Wasilah wrote:
can we PLEASE for the love of god remove the mechanic that makes the site despawn if you leave it?!?!?!?!?!?!

had a cruiser spawn after a failed hacking attempt. I couldn't kill it in my heron and it couldn't kill me but rather than just tanking it i went to refit my ship for more dps and missed out on 80% of the site because it despawned.

Funny, I was in the same situation today and expected the site to be gone when I came back with another ship, but it was still there. The previously spawned rat was gone, but not the containers.

Maybe you had already done all the containers in the site except one? Could be the site despawns when every container has been tinkered with and then everyone leaves the grid. Which wouldn't be so terrible.

.

Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#317 - 2013-05-24 21:32:47 UTC
NPC's will be removed. But that sure would suck if you warped to a safe spot in the middle of running the site.

Btw. can it be so that the containers despawn after been hacked? That would safe at least a hand full of clicks on these new sites.
Wasilah
Little Red X
#318 - 2013-05-24 21:47:50 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Funny, I was in the same situation today and expected the site to be gone when I came back with another ship, but it was still there. The previously spawned rat was gone, but not the containers.

Maybe you had already done all the containers in the site except one? Could be the site despawns when every container has been tinkered with and then everyone leaves the grid. Which wouldn't be so terrible.


sadly it was the second fail attempt. first rat was a frig and the second one (that i was having issues killing) was a cruiser. I would get it to about half shields and it would just rep back up.


Also wanted to add that it seems the value's that the "heal" utilities seems to be a lot lower than it was before the patch yesterday. They are almost no help at all now where as before they would actually allow you to keep going past the 2 firewalls you can fight now.
Atomic Option
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2013-05-24 22:21:35 UTC
I just tried a couple of sites in Sansha null. Hacking skill is only level 3 Shocked so it was expectedly hard. Found a site in a WH but wasn't equipped to clear it.

Thoughts:

  • Love the hacking minigame. Agree with others that it still has some filling out to do, but it definitely has lots of potential.

  • Didn't find an Archeology to try, but short of coming up with a completely different mini-game (probably way out of scope) you could easily differentiate it by flavoring them differently. Make one movement, sequence, and puzzle based and leave the other tactical virus combat based. Not sure how hard it would be to dynamically generate genuinely challenging puzzles for the logic and movement based version. Giving them different looking UIs and naming the elements of the minigame differently would help too.

  • Agree that loot vomit isn't fun or sensical. Sad It was an interesting idea, but I tried it and didn't care for it. One thing that could make it less annoying would be to have the loot not go far enough to require the ship to move or let the tractor beam reach far enough to hit any of the loot before it despawns. That way people won't feel they MUST always use a nano'd frigate to explore. It'd still require precision d-clicking and friends to get everything but would remove some of the frantic panic of figuring out which group of suicidal fart particles to go after.P

  • As a sociable alternative I liked the "multiple people concurrently hacking increases loot" ideas posted earlier as long as it doesn't make solo play too inferior. I prefer to do PVE solo about as often as with friends because there's less time commitment and it can be more spontaneous.

  • Shouldn't be able to re-cloak while hacking module is active.

  • As Wasilah said, sites despawning when you warp out doesn't make sense. It kinda ruins the immersion. The site should despawn after all the containers are hacked AND you warp out. Loot should despawn with the site to get rid of the behavior we see in current DED sites where you blap the leader, BM the wreck, warp out, site despawns, warp back and grab the loot unmolested.
M'aak'han
C-7
#320 - 2013-05-24 22:24:38 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
NPC's will be removed. But that sure would suck if you warped to a safe spot in the middle of running the site.

Btw. can it be so that the containers despawn after been hacked? That would safe at least a hand full of clicks on these new sites.


Even solo, you can still form a fleet with yourself. This way, you can tag the containers you already dealt with. Tags will persist if you leave the grid, but not if you dock or change system unfortunately. But it saved me a lot of wasted time in the past nonetheless. Smile