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Try our new hacking/archaeology sites!

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Author
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2013-05-23 04:12:42 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
I felt good about getting 4 decryptors worth 26m (all) - about the best I've got from a highsec site.

It wouldn't be CCP without them making highsec more lucrative than low or null.
Seriously, out of all the exploration sites I've done on sisi none of them have made anywhere near that much.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#122 - 2013-05-23 04:13:14 UTC
Ok.... So got Singularity all set up and gave this new Exploration thing a shot. Not to put too fine a line on it but.... this is a f-ing piece of crap, man. I'm sorry. I know you guys put alot of effort into this, but it's just not good. Granted, some of the massive dislike is from the loot which you are intending to change. And once you do, I'll give it another shot. But there are a few other things....

Loot Bukkake - It's here to stay and you are fully committed to it. I get that. Took a couple structures to figure things out. Ignore the Scraps. Try to focus on the Data cans. Grab Parts and Materials while looking for the Data. But like many have already said, the icons are just too damn small. So it's an utter biatch trying to figure out where the good stuff is. And that's not "utter biatch" as in "wow this is challenging!". It's as in "this seriously sucks dude". The problem of the small icons is compounded by the sheer number of them - again, something you said you are looking into. Also, there were numerous times when I clicked on a Green bracketed can that was most definitely within range and it did not tractor. Which throws off the timing, which is essential in this twitch-based feature. Possibly it was lag induced by the stacked clouds/structures, or possibly a misclick due to too small an icon. And then let's add in camera auto-focus (even though I have it clicked off, it still seems trigger in the sites) which throws things off. Plus the cans not being affected by a tractor beam module. Kinda sucked all around.

Furthermore, the loot spew seems to go in opposite directions - usually up and down, but probably depends on the orientation of the structure since it did go sideways a few times. But it's difficult to determine since everything is stacked right on top of each other (I'm sure that seemed like a good idea at the time). Amusingly enough, chasing the cans appears to be the worst choice. Looks like it is best to position yourself 3-5km above or below (or in-line with the spew axis) and let the cans come to you, picking off the good ones as they pass. So you are pretty much stationary the entire time in the site. Not very exciting or dynamic, and terribly terribly vulnerable. Fortunately, you can hit cloak as soon as you start hacking, but you have to uncloak to grab the loot. So still pretty risky.

The Minigame - Have the feeling it's gonna get real old, real quick. Worst part by far is the Virus Suppressors. They reduce Virus strength by a crippling amount (-20 in the lowsec sites I was in). Might wanna take a serious look at those. Like maybe make them -5 but with increased Coherence, so it'll take awhile to beat them down - or you can take the chance of bypassing it and hoping you don't run into anymore. But those things definitely need to get fixed.

As stated by others before, being able to preload utilities would be rather handy. Not to mention getting them as loot. And a few more choices in Analyzers would be nice too - stuff with different specs (strength/coherence/slots). Yeah yeah, I know, you want feedback on how it is NOW, not what you can add later. But the thing is, this stuff needs to be added NOW. Cuz the Hacking is just too limited, too boring, and sucks too hard as you currently have it. It's structured off of random chance and the player currently has NO method mitigating or controlling the situation - not very sandboxy.

Conclusion - All in all, I am rather negatively impressed by the changes you have made. It changes hi-sec exploration from a relaxing pastime to an aggravating random matching of stats which I cannot really affect, followed by a precision twitch-a-thon in which the most valuable items tend to be Metal Scraps (seriously, they sell for more than Data Sheets or Small Arms - plus they don't inspire Customs officials to shoot you). Unless some fairly serious changes are made to this system, I'm gonna give up on exploration. It's just not fun, and I feel I have no control or effect on it. Hell, I'd rather go mining - at the keyboard, mindnumbingly watching the lasers - than do this form of exploration. And lowsec exploration seems just far too risky with the new scan overview and ease of probing, along with the extended length of time in the site with limited scope of movement - just not good. What's funny is that L4 missions would be safer, cuz at least the rats will switch targets there and you don't have a giant overview beacon that says "SCAN HERE".
Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming
The Bastion
#123 - 2013-05-23 04:38:37 UTC
Hacking/Relic "mini-game" doesn't seem to have any direction, just mindless clicking until you find the core. Having a clear goal from the beginning would give me a reason to attempt to go through the firewalls... rather than around them. Or maybe something telling me "you're getting warmer"?

Antivirus = fail... even with maxed skills (T2 mods and a rig). The impact seems a bit too extreme. Tried going around it once (finesse approach rather than brute force), but hit 3 (!) more of them completely killing any chance of doing anything (virus strength was down to 1). If there's no chance to defeat or work-around the Antivirus, it just seems like a pointless mechanic to frustrate people.

When failing a hacking attempt a rat spawned, making my covert ops scanning/analyzing ship completely useless. If I have to fight rats, I'll need a combat ship, so might as well have rats on the initial warp-in. The dream of having an all-in-one scanning/analyzing cov-ops ship (that's what they're for right?) seems far-off.

Loot scattering is not fun:

  • Cans are too small and difficult to see/click; and I'm using a mouse with a large monitor (I can only imagine it on my laptop with a trackpad). Green ones are hard to see, Yellow are worse, and white ones just blend-in with the stars.
  • Trying to maneuver a ship to get near the items as they scatter is very difficult. Miss-clicking on an item in the background (like an an asteroid or another piece of debris) changes the camera position... making collecting the items even more frustrating.
  • While I started to get better the more I did it, I never felt like I was having fun... it always seemed like a mechanic that was implemented to turn the loot (the fun/exciting part of sites like this) into a chore.


After analyzing an object I couldn't find a way to show (on the overview) that an item had been hacked. With the previous cans they showed that they had been opened (became greyed out) making keeping track of things easier. Having a "Mark can as viewed" option would be nice.

Sounds like there are a few bugs, improvements, and updates in the works... and I look forward to trying them. Right now I'm not a fan of the loot scatter one bit, but maybe the loot tables will make it worth the frustration.

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#124 - 2013-05-23 07:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
CCP, let's try to focus on what is making EVE FUN, and why people keep playing it... And it is clearly not because you have to clic little things in space before they dissapear.

EVE is about stories, it is about giving us the tools for having adventures.

Removing the difficulty from spots does not go in the right direction for this goal. Nor trying to make looting "less passive".


You are trying to transform EVE in something that it is not supposed to be. And that's not only bad, but also suicidal on the long term.


And the worst part ? This is only the first expansion of a "theme". I don't want to see the rest, honestly.

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#125 - 2013-05-23 07:46:42 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway.


This. Think about some Ladar sites.

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Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2013-05-23 07:57:58 UTC
I wasn't going to say anything since I don't have anything good to say.... but this is awful. Simply awful. Straight
Heinel Coventina
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-05-23 08:18:57 UTC
Wenthrial Solamar wrote:


New Sisi C5 Radar Site:
1. Scan down ( solo )
2. Hack ( 1 person using the interface )
2.5 Spam D-scan ( lern2 friend )
3. Loot (group)
4. go home.




FTFY
Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
#128 - 2013-05-23 09:06:29 UTC
The mini game is ok. It's certainly more entertaining then click and wait.

The can spawn mechanism is horrible. Chasing cans, bumping into objects, clicking, clicking and more clicking only to have the cans vanish before your eyes. If I wanted to play a dexterity based clickfest, there are better ones out there. I'm colorblind. The colors on those cans are very hard for me to distinguish. Thanks for punishing me for being colorblind.

Seriously, CCP, this is not fun, it's frustrating. I do not like to play games that are frustrating. I realize that you still think this loot pinata is a good thing, but please, read this tread. There is nobody that likes it. Don't be stubborn, don't be stupid. Put away your pride. Don't implement a feature nobody likes. It would be a huge mistake. Seriously!
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#129 - 2013-05-23 09:34:35 UTC
Why do you think other MMOs NEVER tried to make mining more interesting than right clic => wait => profit ?

Because they realized that no matter how much time you try to create something interesting, as it is a repetitive task, it WILL become boring three days after release of the feature.

Trying to create a "miningame" is just a waste of developpement time, ressources, and so on. Just to give you an example, I'm pretty sure that this time could have been invested into fixing Fps-killer clouds, improving the gameplay by adding a third type of exploration site with materials for player-created clone, and so on...

First day after release, people will enjoy the minigame.
Second day, they will understand how it works and start to master it.
Third day, they will be bored.

Do you remember CCP ? EVE is not about developpers having to perpetually create new consumable content, it is about creating tools to let us enjoy the sandbox. So please, focus. FOCUS, damit !

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AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#130 - 2013-05-23 09:37:41 UTC
I have tested some site. I have very happy with the new probing system, and hacking systems, nice work .


But, i am not sure about the ejection can will be a great idea.

My machine was a little laggy (old machine and bad connection).

It's was a nightmare for me to try to take the can when they will be ejected.

The player need to have the same chance to loot some stuff ( and now it's not the case).

Pls CCP remove the ejection can.








Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#131 - 2013-05-23 10:06:33 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Why do you think other MMOs NEVER tried to make mining more interesting than right clic => wait => profit ?

Because they realized that no matter how much time you try to create something interesting, as it is a repetitive task, it WILL become boring three days after release of the feature.

Trying to create a "miningame" is just a waste of developpement time, ressources, and so on. Just to give you an example, I'm pretty sure that this time could have been invested into fixing Fps-killer clouds, improving the gameplay by adding a third type of exploration site with materials for player-created clone, and so on...

First day after release, people will enjoy the minigame.
Second day, they will understand how it works and start to master it.
Third day, they will be bored.

Do you remember CCP ? EVE is not about developpers having to perpetually create new consumable content, it is about creating tools to let us enjoy the sandbox. So please, focus. FOCUS, damit !

Wrong. Create enough of this content, each piece of it with decent replayability, and players can spend a long time on it until they get bored, then stop doing it for a while and then in many cases occasionally return to it and enjoy it again.

Every single-player game ever created is in the end repetitive, yet most people like playing such games. Chess is repetitive; while every game is slightly different, the variation is very low. Yet people have been playing it for 500 years and many people play it all their life.

Also, adding a little actual content to EVE does not take away your ability to ignore this content and just play in the sandbox in any way. A sandbox with a few shiny toys in it is more interesting than a sandbox with only other fat ugly kids in it, even if beating up those other kids is still the best part of the sandbox.

In fact you have it backwards: If we are supposed to engange in an activity again and again and again to earn ISK, it *must* offer at least some variation and require a little concentration and thinking. A task we have to perform repeatedly should never be 100% the same time after time after time.

Quote:
improving the gameplay by adding a third type of exploration site with materials for player-created clone, and so on...

Pretty telling quote... you hate content that requires attention and thinking, but would consider the addition of another type of site that functions exactly as the brain-dead stuff already in the game, only with a different label on the cans in it, an "improvement of gameplay".

.

Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#132 - 2013-05-23 10:14:16 UTC
So far i read the whole thread, and yeah... seems like CCP is going to try smash its head through the wall here, they called Odyssey the "Exploration Expansion", but the most important thing, exploration, is broken, and there are only two weeks left.

Maybe CCP could be honest to us. They could tell us now, that they realised how broken this new system is at the moment, and that they won't release Odyssey in two weeks. I would rather wait one or two more month for a good expansion then getting a crappy one in two weeks.

It's good that they are asking for our feedback and fixing problems in detail right now, but as written in a lot of comments in this thread there are major problems with the new sites which i can't see disappearing in the next two weeks.

Please CCP: Dont release this system in the current state. We understand that you thought about it as a good idea, but it is not. Go back to the drawing board, and think about how getting hacking as a profession in EVE on the right track (PvE AND PvP!).
Give us high-resolutions textures instead in two weeks, we will be satisfied then i think. Big smile
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#133 - 2013-05-23 10:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Terrorfrodo wrote:

Also, adding a little actual content to EVE does not take away your ability to ignore this content and just play in the sandbox in any way.


The problem here is that they don't "add" new sites, they replace them. Preventing me from ignoring this content by forcefuly making it take the place of what I liked to do.


Terrorfrodo wrote:

you hate content that requires attention and thinking, but would consider the addition of another type of site that functions exactly as the brain-dead stuff already in the game, only with a different label on the cans in it, an "improvement of gameplay".


It is because you don't focus on the right aspect of this gameplay. "Old" Radar and Magnetometric sites are not fun because I have to cycle a module over and over, it is because their PvE provide a challenge not matched in any other anomaly available to me, and it is because looting the cans is the consequence of some fight. It was not easy to acquire, and because of that its price was high enough for me.

It is the same thing for what I was suggesting (and you ignored the clouds part, despite that fact that any developper with a bit of common sense should make it his priority) about clones sites. Of course its mechanisms wouldn't be amazing compared to other sites, but it would be the birth of a new market, and the possibility to have player-driven control over this essential part of the gameplay (the clone thing).

The difference between us in this particular point, is that I see beyond the cosmic anomaly to look at its implications as a whole in the universe... And that's what any sandbox developper should do :/ .
With my point of view, what the current planned change offers is... Nothing. Materials easier to aquire loosing their value, an activity completed quicker and easier loosing its entertaining value... And in the end, nothing changes outside of the anomaly, while when you do it, things are just more boring.

Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:

Give us high-resolutions textures instead in two weeks, we will be satisfied then i think. Big smile


I approve this ! :D Currently, every graphical/sound improvement made in Odyssey is imo a very good work and worth deploying in itself. Of course this is not an expansion-level content, but thinking that this minigame is different would be a mistake anyway, so...

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Circumstantial Evidence
#134 - 2013-05-23 10:34:30 UTC
On one hand, some people are saying that the sites are too easy to run in cheap ships, partly due to no (significant) rats to kill. (Except WH dwellers who want sleeper rats to stay for their predictable isk value.) The built in scanner will show everyone that something is in the system for you to drop probes and scan down. This leads to more sites found and completed more frequently, and so I understand an argument for some loot devaluation. Especially since we are now told these sites will have more and better loot, from high to null.

On another hand, some people complain that the loot-scatter mechanic makes it too hard to get all the good stuff, and you need friends to help grab more of it. The main problem is that it favors players with hand-eye coordination, clicking skills, whereas pretty much everyone can "activate module and wait." Many potentially good items will drift off, and vaporize. The cans have names that hint at the contents, but it is still random which one may have the most valuable item, or if any "valuable" item is present. You can chase after can names you think are better, but they are all drifting away in three dimensions, and time is running out.

I wonder if we are getting close to where "too easy" complaints roughly equal "too hard" complaints.

Combining a puzzle game with an action game makes an interesting design, but I think many players would prefer one or the other.

Relic sites could keep the old "activate module" method, but produce a loot scatter.
Data sites could use the puzzle as the key to opening a single loot can, or perhaps many randomly-placed but stationary cans, on grid with the same rapid expiration problem, that anyone could warp to.

Or alternate the two methods randomly. Tell the player using a code word on the scanner result, which type of mini-game the player will encounter. If I don't like the site looting method, I can move on and look for another.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#135 - 2013-05-23 10:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
The other problem underligned by Circumstantial Evidence is indeed that the shatter mechanics is not requiering any knowledge, character skills, and reflexion. It is just involving hand coordination, not being colorblind, and some luck... This is not EvE.

I still think that the minigame will quickly be boring for everyone, but at least you are using your brain.

Quote:
brain-dead stuff already in the game


Because yes, container shatter mechanic is no different from "brain-dead stuff already in the game". Just even more random and frustrating.

At least it the containers were not dissapearing but simply moving farther and farther away (being efficient in gathering them to have a good isk/hour ratio is enough in itself), and if they were true cans, sensitive to tractor beams and not magically tractable by nothing, it would be more coherent to use an interceptor to gather them, and/or a noctis to tract them. At least it would involve true cooperation with true mechanics rather than fast-clicking.

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Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#136 - 2013-05-23 10:53:22 UTC
Altrue wrote:

It is the same thing for what I was suggesting (and you ignored the clouds part, despite that fact that any developper with a bit of common sense should make it his priority) about clones sites. Of course its mechanisms wouldn't be amazing compared to other sites, but it would be the birth of a new market,


...which would be 100% like the old markets, only the item you sold would have the label 'clone grade beta' instead of 'stasis webifier II'. How is this in any way new or exciting? It is only truly new if the mechanics of aquiring, building and selling those 'new' items are different from what we have now.

Obviously you are not the only one who for some reason enjoys doing the exactly same, not even slightly randomized thing for years. Although I don't get those people, I have no problem with leaving some of the old content unchanged for them.

But you say that something you liked is going to be replaced. That is true in a way, but since as I said all the existing pve content in EVE is exactly the same (warp in, shoot something with a weapon or harvester or mining laser, loot a can, warp out), it is not *really* true. There will be a lot of the content you like still in the game, you'll just need to pick something with a different label on it than before. Instead of doing a radar site you can now fly some combat anomaly, the gameplay is exactly like what you are used to.

.

CCP Bayesian
#137 - 2013-05-23 10:55:44 UTC
Thanks for the feedback guys.

I'll outline some of my thoughts for the next iteration of the hacking as people have noted it's quite 'light' at the moment on strategy. In part this is due to a scoping down of the initial design which had Utilities as items in EVE that could be collected and traded on the market. This would let you fit your module prior to hacking which adds a whole bunch of decision making depth to the hacking itself. This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle. We also have a whole bunch of more interesting Defense Subsystems and Utilities to add in to increase the variety of things you encounter. On top of which we are considering some ideas for Utilities that let you deploy Virus Subsystems into the systems you are hacking and passive Utilities that take up space but provide a bonus. This should all lead to more interesting choices to make on how you hack.

This is a start, not the end. :)

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#138 - 2013-05-23 10:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
mynnna wrote:
Well if people don't like the loot spew, that's another matter.

But a fair number of the complaints I've seen have been essentially, "but I want to get ALL the loot why can't I get all the loot", which sort of indicates a missing of the point of the loot spew. Blink


Odd, in both threads regarding the Pinata, the main complaint I've seen that they don't like the overall mechanic. The complaints about the loot is that in general it is crap(mostly NPC commodities).

mynnna wrote:
The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends. .


I can understand CCP wanting to make exploration more of a group activity, however this space pinata is the laziest, halfassed, and backwards logic way of doing it. Looting should be the least of the group activity, not the only.

Scanning and Hacking requires one person, yet looting was redesigned for multiple? :ccplogic:

CCP designed WHs and sleepers to be a challenge which would cause players to group up. Then they turn around and remove sleepers from the most profitable sites, which now can be done solo in a covops. :ccplogic:

CCP wanted to reduce clicking in probing, yet added in a minigame and pinata that's all clicking? :ccplogic:

/rant

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

CCP Tallest
C C P
C C P Alliance
#139 - 2013-05-23 11:01:54 UTC
I want to correct a slight misunderstanding. This was a miscommunication between me and Soundwave about the NPC removal and I apologize for not spotting this earlier.

NPCs are not being removed from wormhole sites.

We are only removing NPCs from "normal" k-space hacking and archaeology signatures (NPCs will only spawn in those sites when you fail at the challenge).
No changes are being made to NPCs in wormholes or COSMOS or other hacking/archaeology sites.

The reason for the removal is to allow explorers to play the game without having a combat ship on standby.

[b]★ EVE Game Designer ★ ♥ Team Super Friends ♥[/b]

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#140 - 2013-05-23 11:17:16 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys.

I'll outline some of my thoughts for the next iteration of the hacking as people have noted it's quite 'light' at the moment on strategy. In part this is due to a scoping down of the initial design which had Utilities as items in EVE that could be collected and traded on the market. This would let you fit your module prior to hacking which adds a whole bunch of decision making depth to the hacking itself. This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle. We also have a whole bunch of more interesting Defense Subsystems and Utilities to add in to increase the variety of things you encounter. On top of which we are considering some ideas for Utilities that let you deploy Virus Subsystems into the systems you are hacking and passive Utilities that take up space but provide a bonus. This should all lead to more interesting choices to make on how you hack.

This is a start, not the end. :)

Please move the focus on the hacking mechanics as a method for encouraging group efforts and scrap the loot piñata.

Multiple levels and/or multiple cores for increased loot with optional space fights from defence systems/guards to make it easier or improving loot, remote boosting of the hacker or multiple entry adding utilities with script modified hacking modules.

Play some Shadowrun (P&P). I think that game has some nice ideas concerning infiltration and data retrieval.