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Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence

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Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#81 - 2013-05-18 16:33:27 UTC
This is a very interesting take on local.

It is a nerf to afk cloaking as used by system campers.

It is a nerf to overpowered local intel.

It boosts relevant intel on active ships in system.

It boosts security for afk players.

It boosts security for cloaked players.



It solves so many problems, and keeps local as a valuable source of information.

+1. Very interesting approach.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Yaturi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2013-05-18 17:17:14 UTC
I haven't followed this thread but based on the op I cannot support his idea for the following reasons.

If docked, pos shielded, and cloaked ships are not put into local then you should also take away 'currently docked and active' and 'ships currently in space' option away from the star map interface.

You're only going half way with this Nikk Narrel. You haven't committed to your idea yet.

Also, with the ebb and flow of the game their should be some accountancy for a new found ability. With true cloaking there should be a decrease in potential of the boosted ships. Meaning all covert ops, recon, t3, and blackop ships that have the covert cloaking and covert jump portal ability be diminished in their prospective firepower. That is the nature of the game and what is called for in this scenario.

Change these aspects and I will like your idea.
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-05-18 17:52:47 UTC
I like this idea. It's not quite how I would like to see this issue addressed, but it's fairly simple and elegant.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#84 - 2013-05-18 20:49:59 UTC
Yaturi wrote:
I haven't followed this thread but based on the op I cannot support his idea for the following reasons.

If docked, pos shielded, and cloaked ships are not put into local then you should also take away 'currently docked and active' and 'ships currently in space' option away from the star map interface.

You're only going half way with this Nikk Narrel. You haven't committed to your idea yet.

Also, with the ebb and flow of the game their should be some accountancy for a new found ability. With true cloaking there should be a decrease in potential of the boosted ships. Meaning all covert ops, recon, t3, and blackop ships that have the covert cloaking and covert jump portal ability be diminished in their prospective firepower. That is the nature of the game and what is called for in this scenario.

Change these aspects and I will like your idea.

The map information should be updated only once every 24 hours, likely when the servers come back up from down time. Anything more than that is doing the intel homework for you.

As to balancing cloaked vessels, I have a thread that addresses this already, permitting them to be hunted under condition they are not displayed freely in local.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#85 - 2013-05-18 20:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruze
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Yaturi wrote:
I haven't followed this thread but based on the op I cannot support his idea for the following reasons.

If docked, pos shielded, and cloaked ships are not put into local then you should also take away 'currently docked and active' and 'ships currently in space' option away from the star map interface.

You're only going half way with this Nikk Narrel. You haven't committed to your idea yet.

Also, with the ebb and flow of the game their should be some accountancy for a new found ability. With true cloaking there should be a decrease in potential of the boosted ships. Meaning all covert ops, recon, t3, and blackop ships that have the covert cloaking and covert jump portal ability be diminished in their prospective firepower. That is the nature of the game and what is called for in this scenario.

Change these aspects and I will like your idea.

The map information should be updated only once every 24 hours, likely when the servers come back up from down time. Anything more than that is doing the intel homework for you.

As to balancing cloaked vessels, I have a thread that addresses this already, permitting them to be hunted under condition they are not displayed freely in local.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453



Yeah, the map metrics are as troublesome, if not more, for losec and nulsec occupants.

I would even argue that there should be NO information available from the map that updates under 24 hours. The map should show static information, not 'breathing' intel. That's what other players are for.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-05-19 04:09:01 UTC
+ + + +

This idea is top notch. Very very nice. "If you can't see them, they can't see you."
I love how it take's away the perfect intel of cloakers, thus taking away their perfect risk-free state, without making space perfectly safe for carebears who are admittedly risk adverse.

This point must be made. Cloaking a ship in a safe spot is just as, if not more risk adverse than docking in station. Not only can you not be seen, targeted or scanned like being docked in station, but you also get the perk of being able to see on grid, combat/core/d-scan, moving freely deciding when/if to engage, they can't camp your uncloak spot AND if you're in a covert ops ship you can warp!!!

This change gives back a little risk to cloaking.

I believe that to be able to collect intel, you should also be exposing your own intel to others. As in scanning/dscanning, you should not be able to do these things without being able to also be scanned/dscanned. As such i believe you should have to uncloak to do this. Just as someone docked in station would have to undock as well, just as someone in a PoS shield would have to leave the shield to scan (and probably should for dscan also).

With as easy as scanning belts is going to be in Odyssey there really needs to be a change of this caliber.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#87 - 2013-05-19 04:36:35 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
+ + + +

This idea is top notch. Very very nice. "If you can't see them, they can't see you."
I love how it take's away the perfect intel of cloakers, thus taking away their perfect risk-free state, without making space perfectly safe for carebears who are admittedly risk adverse.

This point must be made. Cloaking a ship in a safe spot is just as, if not more risk adverse than docking in station. Not only can you not be seen, targeted or scanned like being docked in station, but you also get the perk of being able to see on grid, combat/core/d-scan, moving freely deciding when/if to engage, they can't camp your uncloak spot AND if you're in a covert ops ship you can warp!!!

This change gives back a little risk to cloaking.

I believe that to be able to collect intel, you should also be exposing your own intel to others. As in scanning/dscanning, you should not be able to do these things without being able to also be scanned/dscanned. As such i believe you should have to uncloak to do this. Just as someone docked in station would have to undock as well, just as someone in a PoS shield would have to leave the shield to scan (and probably should for dscan also).

With as easy as scanning belts is going to be in Odyssey there really needs to be a change of this caliber.

You have a good sense of the intentions I have.

I cannot in good faith call the simple observation of a chat channel to be the end goal of game play.
It is one thing to notice a hostile in local, but to have no reason to look beyond that holds the bar down and actually blocks gameplay.
Sensors are not just for scanning anomalies or use in wormholes.

At least, I wish they weren't...

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#88 - 2013-05-19 04:42:03 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
+ + + +

This idea is top notch. Very very nice. "If you can't see them, they can't see you."
I love how it take's away the perfect intel of cloakers, thus taking away their perfect risk-free state, without making space perfectly safe for carebears who are admittedly risk adverse.

This point must be made. Cloaking a ship in a safe spot is just as, if not more risk adverse than docking in station. Not only can you not be seen, targeted or scanned like being docked in station, but you also get the perk of being able to see on grid, combat/core/d-scan, moving freely deciding when/if to engage, they can't camp your uncloak spot AND if you're in a covert ops ship you can warp!!!

This change gives back a little risk to cloaking.

I believe that to be able to collect intel, you should also be exposing your own intel to others. As in scanning/dscanning, you should not be able to do these things without being able to also be scanned/dscanned. As such i believe you should have to uncloak to do this. Just as someone docked in station would have to undock as well, just as someone in a PoS shield would have to leave the shield to scan (and probably should for dscan also).

With as easy as scanning belts is going to be in Odyssey there really needs to be a change of this caliber.

You have a good sense of the intentions I have.

I cannot in good faith call the simple observation of a chat channel to be the end goal of game play.
It is one thing to notice a hostile in local, but to have no reason to look beyond that holds the bar down and actually blocks gameplay.
Sensors are not just for scanning anomalies or use in wormholes.

At least, I wish they weren't...


I sincerely feel that the only reason CCP hasn't changed local, is because they've let the problem rest for 10 years and so many different functions rely on it.

They got pissed at BACON, which made local even MORE powerful.

They introduced W-space, without local, and instead of everything going to hell ... it simply continued on. New dynamics, new playstyles, but still fun. For some.

I agree with the original post so much that I feel it should change. But I would be remiss for not admitting that this will change how some people play, AND enjoy, the game. I would like the change, though.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Dr Ted Kaper
Arondight
#89 - 2013-05-19 04:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Ted Kaper
In spite of the many posts about it I seriously fail to see why afk cloaking is a problem... They're cloaked, and they're harmless until they are uncloaked. As for Intel or unseeable threats, GOOD, that's exactly what cloaks are supposed to be.

Edit: they're called cover ops and RECON ships for a reason
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#90 - 2013-05-19 04:53:31 UTC
Dr Ted Kaper wrote:
In spite of the many posts about it I seriously fail to see why afk cloaking is a problem... They're cloaked, and they're harmless until they are uncloaked. As for Intel or unseeable threats, GOOD, that's exactly what cloaks are supposed to be.

Edit: they're called cover ops and RECON ships for a reason


AFK cloaking is not a problem, in and of itself. Even it's detractors can understand that it is a great force-disruption tool that can endanger local players without much risk.

But local, itself, is largely unbalanced in many ways, and this is the first post I've ever seen that attempts to really address the negatives AND positives of a local change.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-05-24 07:19:17 UTC
I am compelled to bump this little gem of an idea.
Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#92 - 2013-05-24 07:57:13 UTC
Good idea. +1 hope it gets implemented

One thing jumps too mind however and that is if docked or "behind POS shield" ships are not seen on local and cant be seen in local "unless chating" couldnt it be used in the same way that log off traps are used only you dont have too log off too do it? not saying it is a bad thing just saying it seems like that could be a thing.

*warps fleet too outpost. Thinks system is empty. Suddenly 200+ ships pour out of outpost*

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#93 - 2013-05-24 13:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Trespasser wrote:
my 2 cents.


1. Have a mod like the cyno jammer but a cloak jammer.. you cant have both running and it needs an upgrade in the Ihub + the mod + it has around the same cost per day as a jammer.

you turn it on and after 30 mins it deactivates all cloaks within the system and they cannot be reactivated till the mod is turned off.

The 30 min timer would show up in space like station timers do for example.

this way you dont have supers ratting in a ni-invulerable state because they can be dropped atleast.

It also gives the cloaky camper a chance to leave by showing the timer throughout the system. So if he is really around and not at work with his computer running at home, he can get away.

2. This option is just bring back the system scanner mod for the POS and allow it to scan out cloaked vessels.

as far as the whole, local vs no local vs delayed local etc etc.. its just a dead horse.. While alot of us wouldnt mind - most of eve would rage out thus making ccp back down.

Local has been apart of this game since launch.. to change it now is not really viable. Ccp gave people who like that an area, its called wormhole space.

/me puts on flame suit


Your "two cents" was to put your own idea forward 1st and then comment on the OP's? Interesting. As for "Local has been apart of this game since launch" you know what I've seen in almost 10 years of being a part of this: EVE evolves, EVE adapts, EVE overcomes, EVE is a living beast and its food is ideas.

This is the best thread I've seen on how to address the "cloaked pilots in Local" showing up in local.

A +1 for the OP for thinking of something that does NOT Nerf Cloaks but DOES Nerf WHINES. I like it, I really really like it! It makes Cov-Ops an active part of EVE and denies both parties free intelligence. None of that "Cloak requires Fuel Blocks = So does being in station" argument.

EDIT 1: Came hating for another "AFK Cloakers Whine Butthurt Help Us Nerf Them!!!!" thread and left feeling happy someone thought this out and had an excellent idea! Thank you OP for giving something new to talk over regarding Cloaking.

EDIT 2: Sub'd to this thread. I'm looking forward to reading others constructive comments on this. I'm quite excited to be honest to see what else people bring and argue for and against this. So far an amazingly overwhelming positive from many who I'm sure I've seen in previous "AFK Cloakers Whine Butthurt Help Us Nerf Them!!!!" giving the OP a "Biomass yourself" or "Biomass Unit ---------------> this way" lol.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#94 - 2013-05-24 13:36:03 UTC
Job Valador wrote:
Good idea. +1 hope it gets implemented

One thing jumps too mind however and that is if docked or "behind POS shield" ships are not seen on local and cant be seen in local "unless chating" couldnt it be used in the same way that log off traps are used only you dont have too log off too do it? not saying it is a bad thing just saying it seems like that could be a thing.

*warps fleet too outpost. Thinks system is empty. Suddenly 200+ ships pour out of outpost*

The beauty of it is that they will need a spotter, or rely on sensors in some fashion.

They will not be tipped off by local.

That said, the difference between a logoff trap and players in an outpost or just behind a gate one system over, become basically the same thing. None of them should have direct knowledge about who enters and leaves the target system automatically.

I find it a bit OP that a pilot sitting in a station can act as a low grade scout and report pilot presence in the system with zero risk to themselves.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2013-05-24 14:06:31 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

(Remember, the expectation that cloak detection and hunting is anticipated alongside this change)


Your proposed system is so overly complex CCP is bound to screw it up and break half a dozen things over and over trying to make it work only to leave it half finished and turn the game into a cesspit in the process.

All that needs to happen is exactly what you said above along with delayed style local like we have in Wormholes. Enter a system and immediately cloak up? Unless someone on gate sees you come in, no one will see you or know you're there. Then you provide a way to actively gather the same intel (your statement above about cloak hunting) and the active, intelligent, and focused groups will be able to respond to the new threat in whatever way they deem fit, whether by attacking or fleeing. The unaware and unprepared will become easier targets - those who prepare and take the steps necessary to insure their survival will be harder to catch and kill.

This is what Eve is supposed to reward - active, intelligent game play. Effort should garner more rewards than sitting around doing nothing.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#96 - 2013-05-24 15:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
De'Veldrin wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

(Remember, the expectation that cloak detection and hunting is anticipated alongside this change)


Your proposed system is so overly complex CCP is bound to screw it up and break half a dozen things over and over trying to make it work only to leave it half finished and turn the game into a cesspit in the process.

All that needs to happen is exactly what you said above along with delayed style local like we have in Wormholes. Enter a system and immediately cloak up? Unless someone on gate sees you come in, no one will see you or know you're there. Then you provide a way to actively gather the same intel (your statement above about cloak hunting) and the active, intelligent, and focused groups will be able to respond to the new threat in whatever way they deem fit, whether by attacking or fleeing. The unaware and unprepared will become easier targets - those who prepare and take the steps necessary to insure their survival will be harder to catch and kill.

This is what Eve is supposed to reward - active, intelligent game play. Effort should garner more rewards than sitting around doing nothing.

Exactly.

The delay I specified is identical to the WH version for these three classifications.

Can CCP screw this up? Quite possibly, but they already are flagging these pilots with special treatment in other ways.

You are removed from sensor detection when cloaked or docked. It can be said when docked you are technically not even in the system, since you can be walking in your quarters or ship spinning.
In both cases, there is little you can do to affect other pilots in a PvP sense directly.
For ships in a POS, you are behind a shield that completely protects you until you leave it's shelter.
Sure, you can scan with sensors, but should you be given free intel while you are immune to risk too?

Right now, all can report what they see in local, but the cloaked vessel can risk detection when jumping onto grid, or by using sensors to get less precise but often useful intel.
The idea that local could provide this to anyone regardless of degree of risk exposure seems unbalanced.

In my view, to see local, you should be uncloaked and exposed in unprotected space.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Phobeus Primae
Hard Shell
#97 - 2013-05-24 16:21:41 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:


The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)


I will just put here some "worst case scenarios":
floating-in-POS and docked players - just imagine scenario when your transport ship is tackled by frigate and you get killed, because you didn't knew there were allied pilots sitting at the POS or station within same solar system
cloaked vessel - you are plexing with carrier in empty system and suddenly something decloaks nearby... game over.

In my opinion it wont work as supposed
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2013-05-24 16:57:32 UTC
Phobeus Primae wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:


The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)


I will just put here some "worst case scenarios":
floating-in-POS and docked players - just imagine scenario when your transport ship is tackled by frigate and you get killed, because you didn't knew there were allied pilots sitting at the POS or station within same solar system
cloaked vessel - you are plexing with carrier in empty system and suddenly something decloaks nearby... game over.

In my opinion it wont work as supposed


There is this thing called comms....

Seriously, if you are in null you should be on comms, or accept the consequences of not being on comms.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-05-24 17:47:30 UTC
Dr Ted Kaper wrote:
In spite of the many posts about it I seriously fail to see why afk cloaking is a problem... They're cloaked, and they're harmless until they are uncloaked. As for Intel or unseeable threats, GOOD, that's exactly what cloaks are supposed to be.

Edit: they're called cover ops and RECON ships for a reason


I'm not really keen on this idea at all, it turns null into stealth bombers online.
Khan Farshatok
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#100 - 2013-05-24 17:54:40 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
All details being considered and weighted... It seems the answer to AFK Cloaking's terror aspect is to ignore it while they are cloaked.
(A cloaked vessel not being capable of inflicting damage directly)

As it is not currently possible to evaluate threat levels properly under the current system, I suggest we upgrade local to exclude vessels which are not capable of interacting with ships and objects directly.

For balance, I would deny these classifications from accessing local at all. Let them be sent chat information in a version of local missing the pilot roster, no free intel for them. (Fully delayed local for all pilots present but not listed)

The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)

Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present.



i have neevr outright called someone an idiot in these threads for their idea's but sir this makes you looke like a complete moron.

first of all let me say that yes there needs to be some kind of better system for identifying if someone is infact AFK or something. but adding everything you are trying to add would infact hurt so much of sov warfare that its not even funny. maybe make it as simple as an icon on someones name when they are inactive for 30 minutes, sort of like the icon on someons name when you have them blocked. please stop trying to chaneg the game for your own personal benefit though. -10 vote.