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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#1141 - 2013-05-16 08:17:51 UTC
Agreed. So long as the tornado exists the tempest doesn't have any strengths that the tornado doesn't do better.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#1142 - 2013-05-16 08:22:26 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Hmm I still just don't see much reason to use a shield fit Tempest over a Maelstrom or Tornado. There is massive overlap between the 3 ships under your proposal which would really squeeze the Tempest and I don't think it would get used much, and I think if your honest you'd agree with me too that it wont get used much either. The 3 ships would simply become different shades of the same colour with the Tempest being in the middle. Not saying it wouldn't work, but just that it wouldn't offer much incentive to use it over the other two ships.


A shield Tempest will not archive the tank of a Maelstrom or the speed of Tornado, that is true. However it will be able to take a lot more damage than a Tornado while staying a lot more mobile than a Maelstrom. Buffer is actually quite useful once you consider that you are in a hull that pushes out a quite a significant amount of DPS at medium range and you will be primary more often than you like.

As soon as you need to be more mobile than a Maelstrom(basically in any pvp scenario where people don't come to you but the other way around) and need more than a flimsy Tier 3 tank(like when other BS actually shoot back and you are down to 20-30km ranges) the shield Tempest easily becomes a viable option compared the Maelstrom and Tornado.

A combination of good speed(for a BS), ok dps, ok range and EHP is actually quite nice to have for many applications. Pirate

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1143 - 2013-05-16 08:31:19 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Hmm I still just don't see much reason to use a shield fit Tempest over a Maelstrom or Tornado. There is massive overlap between the 3 ships under your proposal which would really squeeze the Tempest and I don't think it would get used much, and I think if your honest you'd agree with me too that it wont get used much either. The 3 ships would simply become different shades of the same colour with the Tempest being in the middle. Not saying it wouldn't work, but just that it wouldn't offer much incentive to use it over the other two ships.


A shield Tempest will not archive the tank of a Maelstrom or the speed of Tornado, that is true. However it will be able to take a lot more damage than a Tornado while staying a lot more mobile than a Maelstrom. Buffer is actually quite useful once you consider that you are in a hull that pushes out a quite a significant amount of DPS at medium range and you will be primary more often than you like.

As soon as you need to be more mobile than a Maelstrom(basically in any pvp scenario where people don't come to you but the other way around) and need more than a flimsy Tier 3 tank(like when other BS actually shoot back and you are down to 20-30km ranges) the shield Tempest easily becomes a viable option compared the Maelstrom and Tornado.

A combination of good speed(for a BS), ok dps, ok range and EHP is actually quite nice to have for many applications. Pirate



And we are back at the point:

- second best in many disciplines means you suck it in every aspect -
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1144 - 2013-05-16 08:56:18 UTC
Undertow Latheus wrote:

Give Tempest 10% ROF and 7.5% tracking per level, increase speed, potentially rebalance Large AC's so that the Pest is capable of applying almost full dps at 24km.

Give Maelstrom 5% Damage Bonus instead of ROF Bonus, and make its active shield boost bonus also apply to receiving shield transfers, making the Maelstrom viable for gangs or fleets.

Even if these exact changes arent done, most importantly, figure out what the hell the Pest and Maelstrom are supposed to do, and redesign them so that they actually make sense for those roles.


You know that 10% rof bonus = 12 effective turrets right? It will be OP as hell.

and 10 turret worth alpha on mael is also game breaking....mael is already more than viable for fleets.

I think CCP has the roles set in their minds

Mael: Shield Alpha + PvE
Phoon: Armored Missile Boat
Pest: Big Cane

Big Cane = A fast ship that can be used as solo ship, and can be used for both shield and armor gangs, albeit not as efficient as ships dedicated to the respective type of gang.

Current Pest actually fits the description. But apparently at BS scale "not as efficient" equals to "not viable". Incoming TE nerf doesn't help on this either. So in addition to being a big cane it needs a niche for itself....

...which I believe is armor alpha.

Current king of Armor Alpha is Abaddon and Tempest Fleet Issue. I'd go for a 7.5% dmg per level for both pest and fleet pest. Pest will still need to use a pg rig to be able to fit a decent alpha armor setup. It will have a slight (3%) damage advantage over mael for shield gangs, albeit at a lower EHP.
Alek Row
Silent Step
#1145 - 2013-05-16 09:01:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alek Row
Deerin wrote:
...


That would leave us without an AC battleship at all.
The training of 'large AC specialization' would only make sense for the Marauder or the RF Typhoon if you want to go the AC route
It doesn't make any sense at all.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1146 - 2013-05-16 09:18:55 UTC
Alek Row wrote:
Deerin wrote:
...


That would leave us without an AC battleship at all.
The training of 'large AC specialization' would only make sense for the Marauder or the RF Typhoon if you want to go the AC route
It doesn't make any sense at all.


Nothing is stopping you from fitting ac's. AC's will also enjoy the %5 to %7.5 conversion. (a flat 10% increase in total DPS).

I believe I couldn't make my point clear. To make it clear the two bonuses will be.

%7.5 dmg per level (from 5%)
%5 rof per level (this stays same)
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1147 - 2013-05-16 09:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
A faster artillery platform with more dps and alpha than the maelstrom and only 10-15% less hp would consign the maelstrom to active tanking undocking games. I really don't want that to happen.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Alek Row
Silent Step
#1148 - 2013-05-16 10:16:49 UTC
Deerin wrote:

%7.5 dmg per level (from 5%)
%5 rof per level (this stays same)


Understood now, I need some coffee...
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#1149 - 2013-05-16 11:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
As for damage and alpha on the 7/5/7 armor Tempest design:

Currently we got a 25% and 33% damage bonus:

6 x 1,25 = 7,5(for alpha) / 0,75 = 10(for dps)

That means for alpha it is already worse than the Maelstrom that got 8 effective turrets for alpha and also 10,6 for DPS. The problem you have is that for a armor tank you will only have room for 1(adding 10.0% more alpha) or 2(adding around 19.5% more alpha) gyro stabilizer. This gives the current Tempest around 8,25 or 9 turrets for alpha.

On the mealstrom you would have 9,6 with two gyros and a bit over 10 for pure alpha with 3 gyros.

With the 37,5% damage bonus it looks like this:

6 x 1,375 = 8,25(for alpha) / 0,75 = 11(for dps)

That would give you 9,1 turrets worth of alpha with one gyro(good tank) or 9,9 with two gyros(mediocre tank). So the armor pest would do a similar amount of alpha as a shield tanked Maelstrom. However with a 5 slot tank the pest would be quite a bit more flimsy than a maelstrom(similar alpha) and with a 6 slot tank it will do less alpha(still a bit less ehp, but not to far from the maelstrom).

The extra 2.5% damage per level act like a build in gyro if you look at the alpha numbers and evens out the difference between armor Pest and shield Maelstrom alpha application.

Lloyd Roses wrote:


And we are back at the point:

- second best in many disciplines means you suck it in every aspect -


Well a Tornado can't survive at lower ranges against other BS and the Maelstrom realistic can't adjust combat ranges. While a 7/6/6 pest can't beat this hulls at what they do best(speed or tank) it also doesn't share her biggest weaknesses and would be overall a competitive BS compared to the other hulls. Take the mega as example, if the hole fight is purely done at web range it is better, however once you need some speed and range against targets that spread out or to force a Falcon at 80km off grid, a shield tanked tempest actually becomes a very good small gang BS, because of her flexible range and good speed.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Kai Lae
Karmunism Limited
#1150 - 2013-05-16 14:04:50 UTC
+1 to the 7/6/6 concept. I've used AC tempests with dual neuts or neut/nos before, and I still think that 7/6/6/ is better. The big problem with 5 mids is if you shield tank it, if you want to have a point you have to compensate for it by using rigs. Having an additional slot makes this a non-issue, and gives a lot more flexibility in many other ways.

The overall flexibility in choices I think would make this a very nice ship overall.
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
#1151 - 2013-05-16 16:59:06 UTC
'Sup, Kai? Long time, man...

Anyway, I'm finding myself less opposed to the 7/6/6 concept than I was initially. I'd forgotten about the micro jumpdrive, which is definitely a worthy use of that extra slot in an armor configuration.

However, the ship still needs more DPS to become competitive. Ideally, I'd like to see a speed increase and a DPS boost of some sort. At the same time, I'd like to see the Tempest keep the ability to field two neutralizers. As such, I think it should go the Hyperion route and drop to 5 turrets, but increase either the damage or RoF bonus to compensate (and gain DPS in the process).

As far as changing one of the bonuses, I'm not totally opposed to it as long as the other one is increased massively to compensate, but it would also depend on what the bonus was changed to. I'm not particularly interested in seeing a falloff bonus, mostly because the Tornado already does it better, but if the above changes were made I wouldn't be virulently opposed to it. I do find the suggestion of a tracking bonus to be intriguing, however. A tracking bonus would give a speedy, damaging shield fit better ability to hit its targets while maneuvering, and it would give the less damaging, more utilitarian armor fit an improved ability to fight smaller ships as part of what I see as the armor fit's "jack of all trades, master of none" role.
Atlas Arnst
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1152 - 2013-05-16 17:26:53 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Phoon: Armored Missile Boat
Couldn't the new Typhoon also use a shield tank as well?
I'm awful at ship fitting so be prepared to run away screaming.

[Typhoon]
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Co-Processor II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Shield Boost Amplifier I
X-Large Shield Booster II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Scourge Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1153 - 2013-05-16 17:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
I would agree with the sentiment to make the tempest a 7-6-6 layout ship as it does seem strange that minmatar don't have a stabber/machariel like battleship when that is their main strength.
5% falloff 5% ROF which is the tornado bonuses funnily enough.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Kane Fenris
NWP
#1154 - 2013-05-16 17:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Wrayeth wrote:
'Sup, Kai? Long time, man...

Anyway, I'm finding myself less opposed to the 7/6/6 concept than I was initially. I'd forgotten about the micro jumpdrive, which is definitely a worthy use of that extra slot in an armor configuration.

However, the ship still needs more DPS to become competitive. Ideally, I'd like to see a speed increase and a DPS boost of some sort. At the same time, I'd like to see the Tempest keep the ability to field two neutralizers. As such, I think it should go the Hyperion route and drop to 5 turrets, but increase either the damage or RoF bonus to compensate (and gain DPS in the process).


i feel like this is the best solution so far


+1
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#1155 - 2013-05-16 19:48:56 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Wrayeth wrote:
'Sup, Kai? Long time, man...

Anyway, I'm finding myself less opposed to the 7/6/6 concept than I was initially. I'd forgotten about the micro jumpdrive, which is definitely a worthy use of that extra slot in an armor configuration.

However, the ship still needs more DPS to become competitive. Ideally, I'd like to see a speed increase and a DPS boost of some sort. At the same time, I'd like to see the Tempest keep the ability to field two neutralizers. As such, I think it should go the Hyperion route and drop to 5 turrets, but increase either the damage or RoF bonus to compensate (and gain DPS in the process).


i feel like this is the best solution so far

+1

Yes, this is a pretty good idea. +1
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#1156 - 2013-05-16 20:14:23 UTC
Wrayeth wrote:
'Sup, Kai? Long time, man...

Anyway, I'm finding myself less opposed to the 7/6/6 concept than I was initially. I'd forgotten about the micro jumpdrive, which is definitely a worthy use of that extra slot in an armor configuration.

However, the ship still needs more DPS to become competitive. Ideally, I'd like to see a speed increase and a DPS boost of some sort. At the same time, I'd like to see the Tempest keep the ability to field two neutralizers. As such, I think it should go the Hyperion route and drop to 5 turrets, but increase either the damage or RoF bonus to compensate (and gain DPS in the process).

Actually, the Hyperion LOST DPS, it did not gain DPS. What it gained was keeping its valuable mid and not losing a BUNCH of DPS while gaining a low.

I think 7/6/6 isn't necessarily a bad idea though.

Save the drones!
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1157 - 2013-05-16 22:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
ExAstra wrote:
Wrayeth wrote:
'Sup, Kai? Long time, man...

Anyway, I'm finding myself less opposed to the 7/6/6 concept than I was initially. I'd forgotten about the micro jumpdrive, which is definitely a worthy use of that extra slot in an armor configuration.

However, the ship still needs more DPS to become competitive. Ideally, I'd like to see a speed increase and a DPS boost of some sort. At the same time, I'd like to see the Tempest keep the ability to field two neutralizers. As such, I think it should go the Hyperion route and drop to 5 turrets, but increase either the damage or RoF bonus to compensate (and gain DPS in the process).

Actually, the Hyperion LOST DPS, it did not gain DPS. What it gained was keeping its valuable mid and not losing a BUNCH of DPS while gaining a low.

I think 7/6/6 isn't necessarily a bad idea though.



i thin he meant some increase in rof/dmg from 5%/5% to 10%/5% or 7.5%/7.5% or even 7,5%/10% (didnt do math here all should be more dps) so it would gain a bit of dmg
but not to much as if it had 6 turrets wit the new slot layout and reduced mass it shold do fiene
and you also feree up pg/cpu prob has to be a bit adjusted downwards
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1158 - 2013-05-16 23:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
I'll just leave this here:



TEMPEST:

  • Highest Align Time
  • Substantially faster to lock (50% faster)
  • A more efficient, more unpredictable and more versatile slot layout
  • Improved fittings: 1200 PWG, +100 CPU
  • Improved drone bay: +25/+50
  • ~7.5% increase to turret dps (800mm’s w/ 3x Gyros with hail goes from 895 dps to 962 dps - or 10.7 effective turrets)


Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16700 PWG, 650 CPU CPU
Defence (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(less) / 7000(less) / 6000(less)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400(+87.5) / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 127 / .10 / 101050000(-2250000) / 15.21s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km(+5k) / 150 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength(+1)
Signature radius: 340






TEMPEST FLEET ISSUE
The Tempest Fleet Issue borrows a lot from the new Tempest, including the additional mid, whilst overall still retaining the armour focused layout. Although it does not receive the new Tempests inherent speed, agility or scan resolution, the Fleet Issue Tempest is a much tougher customer, with massive additional power grid, even higher turret dps, and an increase to turret alpha that edges it closer to the Mach


Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+8% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 7L; 6 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 19000 PWG(+1950), 680 CPU(+103)
Defence (shields / Armour / hull): 10500(+884) / 10600(+369) / 9000(-961)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+187.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .115(+.007) / 103300000 / 16.47s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 74km(+11.5km) / 120 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Ladar Sensor Strength(+.25)
Signature radius: 350





Notes:

  • The Tempest becomes a better sniper overall. With powergrid implants, a passive armour tank can be fitted with 1400’s without the need for fitting mods. Combined with the new slot layout that increases mid slots vital for damage projection and fleet support, at the expense of an high slot which, with 1400s had limited use and even less power grid to utilise.
  • CPU has also been improved, allowing for stronger passive, and in some cases, active shield tanking that has further synergies with autocannons allowing the Tempest to provide the nimble, anti BC support in a way unique to the nascent cruise laden Typhoons.
  • With the heavy Maelstrom retaining the Turret Alpha, active and passive shield tanking crowns, and the Typhoon remaining the speed and damage projection king, each Minmatar Battleship now has a distinct and meaningful place within a matari’s hanger bay.


Comments:

  • Basically, I wasn't going for a complete realignment, just a better compromise - ehp has been shaved, a high slot has been lost, capacitor still remains low and without implants, you still won't be able to fit everything you want with artillery. But overall, it’s a more focused projectile platform, has more agility and scan res, more turret dps and dps overall. With AC’s, it’s supposed to be a ship with magic tricks, 1vs1, you win not with raw dps or ehp, but by being unpredictable in ways 2 heavy neuts could rarely be. That being said, it is more competitive with the phoon and megathron with the above.
  • Re: The slot layout: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3033987#post3033987
  • I decided to ditch the ROF+Fall off bonus because it was problematic. Turret dps was too low for extreme fall off to matter, and compared to new sentry drones and cruise missiles, it didn't make much sense and/or broke more than it fixed.
  • I considered increasing turret alpha for about 10 minutes, but decided that EVE online doesn't need more alpha right now, and that the tipping point between the Maelstrom and Tempest as far as alpha is concerned, is more finely balanced than most realise, and ******* that up would result in a Maelstrom fix down the line. That being said, it’s fundamentally a better sniper, for armour, fleets or otherwise, and will do the most turret dps at range exchanging 7% more dps, for 7% less alpha than the Maelstrom.
  • It loses a high (dps) in exchange for a larger drone bay keeping the rest of the dps roughly the same in absolute terms.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Atlas Arnst
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1159 - 2013-05-16 23:57:49 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
I'll just leave this here:
Sounds pretty good, hopefully something like that is implemented.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1160 - 2013-05-17 00:47:59 UTC
I like the 7-6-6 slot layout idea. I would increase the drone bay to 125/125 to give the ship the extra oomph it needs. The reason why is as follows-

As it stands right now - the Maelstrom has 10.66 effective turrets. The Tempest has 10 effective turrets and two unbonused launchers. If you fit for pure gank (two torp launchers) the Tempest can do slightly more damage. That advantage is lost though once you pull drone bays into the equation. Shield gank Tempest vs gank Mael with close range faction - 1141 DPS to 1131 DPS. That is not worth a BC level Micky Mouse tank to achieve. If you armor tank the Tempest using five of the low slots- pretty normal fare- your DPS drops to 901 as you only can fit one Gyro.

Increasing the drone bay by 50 would give the Tempest about 100 more DPS. This would be offset a bit by the loss of one of the launcher slots (about 50 DPS) going to a mid. The shield Tempest would get 1150-1200 DPS depending on neut vs launcher. The shield Tempest would have a better tank as well. The armor tempest would get 900- 950 DPS based on same question but would also have six mids to play with.

The Tempests' bonuses are fine.