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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2661 - 2013-05-12 00:30:38 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
*Amarrians* complaining about homogenization because a battleship almost no one used became a drone boat

The market statistics prove you wrong, easily. The battleship you call "noone using" is used by 60% Amarr battleship pilots.



buying one and using it are different. right now it's cheap as can be. hell, my naga costs the same amount. the geddon is a throw away BS with SOME usefulness right now. after odessey hits? it will be an expensive PoS. (Piece of ****)

If it's such a throwaway and not worth the crap, why am I prefer it over other two? I'll tell you why - because it's better. Simple at that.




i said AFTER Odessey hits it wil be a PoS, snide comments only work when they are a response to the ENTIRE text. i own a geddon, i happen to like it right where it is. afterwards? i have a LOT of traning to ddo for drones if i want to ever take it for a spin again

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2662 - 2013-05-12 01:04:07 UTC
I have ALOT of SP in drones already, and I'm NOT going to use that crap afterward. Because who ever want to use crap?

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2663 - 2013-05-12 01:15:21 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
I have ALOT of SP in drones already, and I'm NOT going to use that crap afterward. Because who ever want to use crap?



yup, seeing as there are only TWO real drone boats.......carriers and motherships. everything else you are still limited to 5 drones.....

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#2664 - 2013-05-12 08:01:30 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
I have ALOT of SP in drones already, and I'm NOT going to use that crap afterward. Because who ever want to use crap?


Me.


I'll be flying this a lot where previously I might have considered a dominix.
Loki Vice
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2665 - 2013-05-12 08:08:14 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
I have ALOT of SP in drones already, and I'm NOT going to use that crap afterward. Because who ever want to use crap?


Me.


I'll be flying this a lot where previously I might have considered a dominix.


why? the dominix is strictly better
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#2666 - 2013-05-12 09:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
I'm not entirely convinced about the resist changes since Maelstrom fleets are so dominant (though I will grant a lot of that is connected with 1400mm Artillery).

Anyway, these changes aren't very good IMO.. Tracking bonus on Apoc won't help it in close quarters and won't make that much of an impact when its shooting from its optimal range, lasers already track excellently at their optimals. Consider giving it a range and damage bonus please.

As for the Geddon I'm actually okay with the new bonuses and I agree that there was too much turret overlap in the amarr lineup, but why did you take away 2 slots for a mid slot? Was that maths fail? It now has 18 slots compared to the 19 slots of the Abaddon and Apoc. We all know the extra mid will be used for a second or third cap booster just to make it viable at its new role, so the why take away even more slots? Let it keep 8 lows please. It needs them for the additional tank in fleet ops or for drone damage controls in small gang/solo fights.

Summary:
1. Range and damage bonus for Apocalypse.
2. Don't remove the low from the Geddon. It already lost a high for the mid. Seriously don't understand this.
3. Unsure about the Abaddon resist changes. But will leave that debate for the other forum topic.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2667 - 2013-05-12 09:52:20 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
why did you take away 2 slots for a mid slot? Was that maths fail? It now has 18 slots compared to the 19 slots of the Abaddon and Apoc.

All drone ships have 1 slot less.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2668 - 2013-05-12 10:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Apostrof Ahashion
And once again - as a drone boat Armageddon is outclassed by Dominix (and it should be), as a neut boat it is outclassed by Abaddon that has more tank and more neuts, and if you fit it with 5 torps and two neuts every tier 3 that just replaces 2 turrets with neuts will outclass it in every possible way.

Apocalypse got nerfed to the ground. It lost capacitor, drones, hp, and gained a tracking bonus that outperforms (slightly) dmg bonus only when shooting T1 cruisers that are in perfect orbit at 25-30km, i did a test and posted it a few pages back. Nvm that T1 cruisers cant do anything at 30km range, or that perfect orbits never happen. And it also lost a rig slot for now mandatory discharge rig, a rig i could use for metastasis adjuster if i wanted tracking so basically all it gained is 12% tracking, a little more than tracking enhancer gives you. The only ship that got nerfed to the ground in this "rebalance".

And why are the same ppl that are complaining that the Tempest is underpowered praising Apocalypse? Tempest got a huge buff to hp, now having even more armor hp than apocalypse, can use all 3 rigs for something other than "i can fire my guns" rig, thanks to double damage bonus will outdamage it to 35-40km, has two utility high slots and can be armor or shield tanked. It even has more drones than Apocalypse. And can fit artillery.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2669 - 2013-05-12 11:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
And once again - as a drone boat Armageddon is outclassed by Dominix (and it should be), as a neut boat it is outclassed by Abaddon that has more tank and more neuts, and if you fit it with 5 torps and two neuts every tier 3 that just replaces 2 turrets with neuts will outclass it in every possible way.

Apocalypse got nerfed to the ground. It lost capacitor, drones, hp, and gained a tracking bonus that outperforms (slightly) dmg bonus only when shooting T1 cruisers that are in perfect orbit at 25-30km, i did a test and posted it a few pages back. Nvm that T1 cruisers cant do anything at 30km range, or that perfect orbits never happen. And it also lost a rig slot for now mandatory discharge rig, a rig i could use for metastasis adjuster if i wanted tracking so basically all it gained is 12% tracking, a little more than tracking enhancer gives you. The only ship that got nerfed to the ground in this "rebalance".

And why are the same ppl that are complaining that the Tempest is underpowered praising Apocalypse? Tempest got a huge buff to hp, now having even more armor hp than apocalypse, can use all 3 rigs for something other than "i can fire my guns" rig, thanks to double damage bonus will outdamage it to 35-40km, has two utility high slots and can be armor or shield tanked. It even has more drones than Apocalypse. And can fit artillery.


Yes the Apoc lost some things but it gained.... wait for it .... mobility LOL like that means anything on an plated ship...
They need to go back to the drawing board on all attack battleships.
The mega is a joke shortest ranged ship with no shield tanking ability ... the Hyperion is now the better choice it will have more speed and utility when you compared plated vs active tank fitted..... ofc that brings up cap issues with battleship mods consuming way too much for the cap given to these ships.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2670 - 2013-05-12 11:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonto Auri
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
And once again - as a drone boat Armageddon is outclassed by Dominix (and it should be),

Oh, really?...
Now, why would one use drone boatany ship, that is "outclassed"? Isn't the very idea of such wording sounds flawed to you?
Why EVER create an "outclassed" ship in first place?

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#2671 - 2013-05-12 13:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
And once again - as a drone boat Armageddon is outclassed by Dominix (and it should be), as a neut boat it is outclassed by Abaddon that has more tank and more neuts, and if you fit it with 5 torps and two neuts every tier 3 that just replaces 2 turrets with neuts will outclass it in every possible way.

Apocalypse got nerfed to the ground. It lost capacitor, drones, hp, and gained a tracking bonus that outperforms (slightly) dmg bonus only when shooting T1 cruisers that are in perfect orbit at 25-30km, i did a test and posted it a few pages back. Nvm that T1 cruisers cant do anything at 30km range, or that perfect orbits never happen. And it also lost a rig slot for now mandatory discharge rig, a rig i could use for metastasis adjuster if i wanted tracking so basically all it gained is 12% tracking, a little more than tracking enhancer gives you. The only ship that got nerfed to the ground in this "rebalance".

And why are the same ppl that are complaining that the Tempest is underpowered praising Apocalypse? Tempest got a huge buff to hp, now having even more armor hp than apocalypse, can use all 3 rigs for something other than "i can fire my guns" rig, thanks to double damage bonus will outdamage it to 35-40km, has two utility high slots and can be armor or shield tanked. It even has more drones than Apocalypse. And can fit artillery.

You have clearly not been on sisi.


The Dominix has 12,000 power grid versus the geddons 16,000, no missile hardpoints the same drone damage, drone bay one additional mid, and a drone optimal range bonus. If you think that makes the dominix a better drone boat, let alone, better ship your high and drunk.

The Apoc gained regen, gained a tracking bonus, became faster and more agile, gained power grid and cpu, got energy weapons that are easier to fit and use less cap. Christ, you couldn't even fit a rack of mega beams without fitting mods before! I think things like the armour HP, cap pool, and drone bay where completely necessary, but IMO, it's a better sniper/fleet ship now, than it was.

Your lso high and drunk if you believe any tempest fit will outdamage the apoc beyond 20km, let alone 40km and when you punch in a realistic fit, the tempest would be lucky to out damage the apoc outside of web range. I'm surprised CCP Rise hasn't been more dismissive than he has been given the level of myopia and unsubstantiated logic powering some of the comments here.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2672 - 2013-05-12 13:35:13 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:

You have clearly not been on sisi.


Then someone messed up somewhere- the geddon is supposed to have 13000 PWG, not 16000. At least according to the numbers posted in this thread.

The apoc cap situation is a wash out, and the apoc isn't a better sniper ship because of the changes to the ship, it's a better sniper ship because of the changes to beams. Kinda weird, but okay. The improved maneuverability is nice, but the Apoc is still an armor tank, and still very reliant on cap for...well...everything.

I agree the tempest won't outdamage the Apoc beyond 20-40 km, but that's...well...where scorch shines. Actually, with the Apoc range bonus, I suppose it shines out to 60km or so too. But again, that's more because of the crystal/gun than because of the ship. The Apoc's bonuses pull it in two opposite directions: towards sniper and brawler, when it doesn't have the HP for a brawler, and doesn't have the maneuverability for a sniper.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#2673 - 2013-05-12 13:35:31 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
The Dominix has 12,000 power grid versus the geddons 16,000, no missile hardpoints the same drone damage, drone bay one additional mid, and a drone optimal range bonus. If you think that makes the dominix a better drone boat, let alone, better ship your high and drunk.

Just because you are stupid doesn't make your claims valid. dominix is clearly superior drone boat, by any means.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#2674 - 2013-05-12 13:41:49 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:

You have clearly not been on sisi.


Then someone messed up somewhere- the geddon is supposed to have 13000 PWG, not 16000. At least according to the numbers posted in this thread.

It's 13000 pwg before skills, (as 10000 pwg with the domi) 16000 after skills are applied.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#2675 - 2013-05-12 14:07:02 UTC
I'd like to think that the 2 ships have different uses , one is short range , brawling, probably using heavy drones and neuts. The other , according to it's bonuses is ????!!?!?!?! a sentry sniper ship.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#2676 - 2013-05-12 15:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Apostrof Ahashion
Pattern Clarc wrote:

The Dominix has 12,000 power grid versus the geddons 16,000, no missile hardpoints the same drone damage, drone bay one additional mid, and a drone optimal range bonus. If you think that makes the dominix a better drone boat, let alone, better ship your high and drunk.


Dominix has its place in fleets as premier Sentry drone boat thanks to its optimal&tracking bonus. Abaddon is a better neut boat. No need to bring Armageddon in big fleets. You know, the only place Amarr battleships are still used.

Pattern Clarc wrote:

The Apoc gained regen, gained a tracking bonus, became faster and more agile, gained power grid and cpu, got energy weapons that are easier to fit and use less cap. Christ, you couldn't even fit a rack of mega beams without fitting mods before! I think things like the armour HP, cap pool, and drone bay where completely necessary, but IMO, it's a better sniper/fleet ship now, than it was.


I posted a test few pages back how good that bonus is on lasers. (it sucks, if you are lazy to look it up) And if you think it gained cap you are ******** since its Mega pulses will now use 46.8 cap to fire, up from 26. Pulse lasers with scorch already have 60km optimal with tracking computers. Both its bonuses are highly situational, it lost capacitor, lost a lot of tank. And even with that pathetic boost to speed it is still the slowest attack battleship around. No one would use this over Abaddon. It also lost one rig slot because discharge rig became mandatory. I could fit tracking in there if i wanted tracking.

Apocalypse is heavily nerfed.

Pattern Clarc wrote:
Your lso high and drunk if you believe any tempest fit will outdamage the apoc beyond 20km, let alone 40km and when you punch in a realistic fit, the tempest would be lucky to out damage the apoc outside of web range. I'm surprised CCP Rise hasn't been more dismissive than he has been given the level of myopia and unsubstantiated logic powering some of the comments here.


Shield tanked Tempest will outdamage Apocalypse considerably up to 35k then Apocalypse gets ahead. Armor tanked will outdamage Apocalypse up to 20km and then slowly fall behind but still do decent up to 40km. It will be faster, have no cap issues and have better tank in all situations. So i do think it is better.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#2677 - 2013-05-12 15:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:

Dominix has its place in fleets as premier Sentry drone boat thanks to its optimal&tracking bonus. Abaddon is a better neut boat. No need to bring Armageddon in big fleets. You know, the only place Amarr battleships are still used.

Are you buthurt that you now have a ship that isn't expressely for the use of big fleets? I guess I'm starting to see the source of your confusion. Straight

Pattern Clarc wrote:

I posted a test few pages back how good that bonus is on lasers. (it sucks, if you are lazy to look it up) And if you think it gained cap you are ******** since its Mega pulses will now use 46.8 cap to fire, up from 26. Pulse lasers with scorch already have 60km optimal with tracking computers. Both its bonuses are highly situational, it lost capacitor, lost a lot of tank. And even with that pathetic boost to speed it is still the slowest attack battleship around. No one would use this over Abaddon. It also lost one rig slot because discharge rig became mandatory. I could fit tracking in there if i wanted tracking.

The hull gained cap regen, not enough to make up for the ******** -50% cap use bonus, but then again you can't have everything. I'm not really on board with the attack/combat battleship nonsense either, but the 500 hitpoints of armour it lost won't be the end of the world.

Apocalypse hasn't been nerfed.

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Shield tanked Tempest will outdamage Apocalypse considerably up to 35k then Apocalypse gets ahead. Armor tanked will outdamage Apocalypse up to 20km and then slowly fall behind but still do decent up to 40km. It will be faster, have no cap issues and have better tank in all situations. So i do think it is better.

Shield tanked tempest will out damage an apoc by precisely 10%, whilst having a 3rd the EHP. A better tank in all situations? Lol Now I know you only fly one race.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#2678 - 2013-05-12 15:30:52 UTC
Loki Vice wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
I have ALOT of SP in drones already, and I'm NOT going to use that crap afterward. Because who ever want to use crap?


Me.


I'll be flying this a lot where previously I might have considered a dominix.


why? the dominix is strictly better

Lol no, the geddon actually has a useful secondary bonus unlike the dominix, which already has plenty of room for omnidirectionals.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#2679 - 2013-05-12 17:36:10 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:

There are only two ships I consider to be in trouble, the Domi and the Tempest - these are concepually broken and will require major surgery to fix. Although I think the resistance nerf is completely pointless and unnecessary, when you combine the changes to Energy Weapons, the Abaddon is in a significantly better place.

Call me impressed I do agree about Abaddon. They didn't touch it apart from resistance nerf, but come on they could do so much better. Look what they did to Hype, that thing looks like a ship crushing beast on steroids now. And I do agree about Tempest it is silly, Domi on the other hand was barely scratched.

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Apoc, is a wash. It was fine before, it's fine but different now - the most stupid thing I read in this thread is *Amarrians* complaining about homogenization because a battleship almost no one used became a drone boat, whilst demanding Hybrid style stats to smoothen out the rough edges (ie, downsides ie ie, high cap use, fittings) of energy weapons. The Apoc is almost the perfect sniper with Mega Beams, and it get's ******** with Tachyons.

Now wait a minute, a wash? Are you serious? If Apoc is a wash, then Tempest is a repaint.

First thing: "demanding Hybrid style stats" Are you serious? With old bonus Apoc had more cap for his guns than now, so come on let's be real. "Hybrid style stats", that is not even funny Pattern.

Second thing:"almost the perfect sniper with Mega Beams" Why this so-called perfect sniper has to have tracking speed bonus? What are you going to shoot at with those Mega Beams past 100km, light scout drones? Now do not forget about that Apoc must bring something else on the table compared to Oracle. All that Apoc brings now is his battleship price, so Oracle just points and laughs in his face while showing him the finger.

So if you say that Apoc gained something useful with his new tracking speed bonus, I can say look at Tempest it got so much defense now and more power grid, so it is probably better now.

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Geddon - I see this as a combat/disruption ship hybrid - with no right to have attack ship dps, or abaddon ehp, but then again, it'll easily pull 1200 dps, with nearly 800 of that dps coming from drones if you really needed it to (1600dps overloaded with 6 damage mods and 2x 45km neuts!). It has CPU issues, but most of the adjusted ships have cpu issues - to be perfectly honest, I have no idea why CCP Rise thinks it's cool for old tier 3 ships to have practically zero fitting issues, and new tier 3 ships with the same price tag not to be equally capable - what's more, the Geddon is a combat ship officially, and should have the fittings to reflect that like all the rest. It's not supposed to kite, it's not supposed to dictate range (some of the greatest balance issues have been created by the moronic belief that the ships with the greatest range also need to be the fastest!) but bygolly will it fuckup anything that tries to do that to it.

Geddon can't do nothing more than new Phoon can do better, unless you are trying Phoon with only drones. On top of that Phoon have +1 med.
Can Phoon have more dps, yes he can. Is he quicker, yes he is. Does he have +1 med, yes he has. Can he fit 2x neuts and be good with them, yes he certainly can.
So tell me when this neut range bonus that gives "45km neuts!" will be useful or tell when exactly you said to yourself"I wish I had this omfg 45km neuts!, cause this guy just warped".

It would be very neat if after 2-3 months when this changes hit TQ CCP showed us statistics about all this BS rebalance how many killed, how many used and so on. I doubt they will do that, though.


Pattern Clarc wrote:
The hull gained cap regen, not enough to make up for the ******** -50% cap use bonus, but then again you can't have everything. I'm not really on board with the attack/combat battleship nonsense either, but the 500 hitpoints of armour it lost won't be the end of the world.

No one asked for everything, no one asked for this tracking bonus also.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2680 - 2013-05-12 17:51:38 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
And once again - as a drone boat Armageddon is outclassed by Dominix (and it should be), as a neut boat it is outclassed by Abaddon that has more tank and more neuts, and if you fit it with 5 torps and two neuts every tier 3 that just replaces 2 turrets with neuts will outclass it in every possible way.

Apocalypse got nerfed to the ground. It lost capacitor, drones, hp, and gained a tracking bonus that outperforms (slightly) dmg bonus only when shooting T1 cruisers that are in perfect orbit at 25-30km, i did a test and posted it a few pages back. Nvm that T1 cruisers cant do anything at 30km range, or that perfect orbits never happen. And it also lost a rig slot for now mandatory discharge rig, a rig i could use for metastasis adjuster if i wanted tracking so basically all it gained is 12% tracking, a little more than tracking enhancer gives you. The only ship that got nerfed to the ground in this "rebalance".

And why are the same ppl that are complaining that the Tempest is underpowered praising Apocalypse? Tempest got a huge buff to hp, now having even more armor hp than apocalypse, can use all 3 rigs for something other than "i can fire my guns" rig, thanks to double damage bonus will outdamage it to 35-40km, has two utility high slots and can be armor or shield tanked. It even has more drones than Apocalypse. And can fit artillery.




and you are suprised because?

CCP has refused to comment in days. we keep pointing out the problems and they ignore it all. once they program something some way, they DGAF afterwards.

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend