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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#2361 - 2013-05-03 21:01:07 UTC
Haha because we got tracking and a funny lightshow for about 5 minutes.
At least i think thats why.

Plausible reasons would be nice though.
Maybe the real reason is that amarrians are just the "bad guys" who enslaved the poor "winmatar" and thus should be punished.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#2362 - 2013-05-03 22:04:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I fail to see how you could have equal EHP if both hulls got 7 lows, the Abaddon got 500 more armor and the resist bonus


Effective hitpoints gained from repping. Not paper EHP.

They have the same number of lows. The Abaddon literally has one less mid, and functionally has two less, since one of those is spoken for with a cap booster.


You really imply that the hype works without a cap booster(most fit 2 atm)?

A lets have a simple math example:

Assuming 40k EHP in armor and facing 1k DPS with a 500 DPS tank. You run out of armor in 80 seconds.

Now assume 60k EHP(resist bonus + extra resist slot instead of the 2. repper) with 1K DPS and 300 DPS tank. You run out of armor in 86 seconds, spending less cap, being more resistant to neuts and gaining extra time if the dps gets higher. If you look at the extra ehp in shield and structure of gallente hulls this becomes very equal, still it is a bit different in the general tank design.

That is in a nutshell amarr vs gallente active tanking from my experience with both platforms. In plain T2 amarr is nearly always just as good as gallente(with the current 5% resistance bonus), only if you really need the extra mobility and face just a bit more dps than you can handle gallente comes out on top. However in a 1o1 gallente would still come out on top by sporting the better dps and the better resistance vs lasers then a amarr hull vs hybrids, giving it the edge(that will be lost in gang fights where damage types are more equally distributed). Both are designed around different scenarios and perform differently in the same scenarios.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Don't try to do cap math during active prop use, let me just tell you that right now. Especially given the diversity of peak recharge rates, that is a very unreliable statement to make. And in most engagements of what? Hot drops? Gate camps? Or is burning toward an enemy and tanking their damage a strategy now?


It is actually pretty predictable. A blaster ship in a gang(lets say small gang so 20 people involved) engagement will spend more cap than a laser hull most of the time(assuming targets live longer than 60s and don't stick together like sitting ducks), by simply adjusting ranges. Heck even if you just burn 20km to get to a geddon in a mega it will cost you over 2 minutes of cap till you break even today. If you look at solo, the gallente hull might spend a bit less, giving it the edge here.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Why does the existence of neut focused ships justify 300% higher cap use than comparable hybrid weapons? How does that work, exactly?

And no, btw, being cripped by neuts is actually a pretty bad thing when you have one race alone among all the other whose guns literally shoot cap at the enemy.


It is actually more or less the same cap use in realistic engagements, and both platforms share similar weakness to getting neuted. Lets put it that way, do you think a Abaddon in a fleet engagement faces more neuts than a hype during solo pvp?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2363 - 2013-05-03 22:15:35 UTC
Quote:
You really imply that the hype works without a cap booster(most fit 2 atm)?


No, I am implying that even if you use a cap booster or two, you still come out ahead in midslots without even really trying. You even have a utility high, the value of which cannot be overstated.

Quote:
It is actually pretty predictable. A blaster ship in a gang


At what point was anyone here talking about blasters? Really, I am curious. Much of, if not most of this discussion is about the issues fitting beams and sustaining capacitor as a quality of life issue. Not buring toward someone with a blaster boat, which last time I checked, you were basically dead meat trying to do so.
Quote:

It is actually more or less the same cap use in realistic engagements, and both platforms share similar weakness to getting neuted. Lets put it that way, do you think a Abaddon in a fleet engagement faces more neuts than a hype during solo pvp?


The problem with even trying to hypothesize about something like that, is that until the battleship revamp hits, the Hyperion is pretty well awful.

But the answer is that the Hyperion does not face insta annihilation from artillery in solo pvp.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Toxic Raioin
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2364 - 2013-05-03 22:32:15 UTC
WTS Amarr SP for 3.14159265359 isk per point!
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#2365 - 2013-05-03 22:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

No, I am implying that even if you use a cap booster or two, you still come out ahead in midslots without even really trying. You even have a utility high, the value of which cannot be overstated.


The extra flexibility with the meds/high slots is a intended feature of gallente/minmatar hulls for small gang/solo pvp. However this doesn't scale and once you look at bigger engagement or add Logi and dedicated EW\Neut ships the value is diminished a lot. Actually if you need a scram, a web, 2 cap boosters and a mwd just to do your thing, the hype isn't this flexible.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
At what point was anyone here talking about blasters? Really, I am curious. Much of, if not most of this discussion is about the issues fitting beams and sustaining capacitor as a quality of life issue. Not buring toward someone with a blaster boat, which last time I checked, you were basically dead meat trying to do so.



If you talk about the hype you talk about blasters(the new hype is the old mega and the old hype in one ship, both dedicated to blaster pvp), it is a bad rail ship(lock range is capped, tank/dps is limited, no tracking bonus, drones are not very useful at 100km once you need to move around the fleet every 30s). It will be even more terrible compared to the new mega when it hit the server(better EHP, better effective dps, better lock range, just as fast, perfect slot layout for the job). If you looking for a ship to contest the current abaddon for armor fleets it will be the new mega, not the new hype.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
It is actually more or less the same cap use in realistic engagements, and both platforms share similar weakness to getting neuted. Lets put it that way, do you think a Abaddon in a fleet engagement faces more neuts than a hype during solo pvp?


The problem with even trying to hypothesize about something like that, is that until the battleship revamp hits, the Hyperion is pretty well awful.

But the answer is that the Hyperion does not face insta annihilation from artillery in solo pvp.


The design of the hype was simply to little to late and pushed in at the time as CCP wanted to release a rail BS for Caldari. Everything else was just crafted around what role is still open on the BS tiers to fill. We did get a very cool hull with the Abaddon, Maelstrom became very relevant with the projectile buff and the rokh became ok with the fitting buff on hybrids and the slight rail dps buff(not a real fan of the hybrid buff, since it didn't solve the biggest issues of optimal vs damage bonus on caldari/gallente hulls).

I actually do prefer insta death by artillery over slowly dying to ecm and poor dps over 5 minutes. P
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2366 - 2013-05-04 00:07:40 UTC
Quote:
I actually do prefer insta death by artillery over slowly dying to ecm and poor dps over 5 minutes


Heh, not I. I can at least whistle for help in a 5 min time period.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2367 - 2013-05-04 00:16:06 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Which carries with it fitting implications as well, unless you think performance equivalencies and fittings to be uncoupled concepts. But when someone brings up tachs in a megapulse ship to 425 ship comparison saying the megapulse to 425 comparison isn't fair we are very much comparing all aspects as equivalents including fitting.

and the fallacy of this (comparing a short range weapon to a long range weapon) has been consistently pointed out as a flawed basis to begin with as well.

I keep saying megapulse while meaning megabeam. Not sure why. But the original statement understood that megabeams was the comparison to 425's, not megapulse.

megabeams may have the closest range/dps to 425s, but your forgetting that each races weapons aren't meant to be realistically compared on such a basis to one another. In terms of any such comparison (despite the fallacies of comparing different weapons to begin with) however, then the correct line of approach is to go with the largest long range weapon for each, and to make that complete (even though they aren't turrets) it should be 425, Tachyon, 1400, & Cruise Launchers.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2368 - 2013-05-04 00:20:56 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
Where so damn OP, we carry our own neuts to suck ourself dry just to be balanced.
Hell yeah i like beeing balanced :)

Rofl.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#2369 - 2013-05-04 00:22:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I actually do prefer insta death by artillery over slowly dying to ecm and poor dps over 5 minutes


Heh, not I. I can at least whistle for help in a 5 min time period.


There is no help if you do solo pvp 20 jumps away from your home system. P
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2370 - 2013-05-04 00:50:19 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I actually do prefer insta death by artillery over slowly dying to ecm and poor dps over 5 minutes


Heh, not I. I can at least whistle for help in a 5 min time period.


There is no help if you do solo pvp 20 jumps away from your home system. P


Heh, I always try to make sure I have backup unless I am flying something disposable, just sayin'.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2371 - 2013-05-04 02:33:00 UTC
points are now mute as BS prices are INCREASING....if you don't have a monopoly on moongoo, only viable option is to buy plex for these ships.


i have purchased my last BS for a VERY long time, if i want to PVP, will just stick to frigates and dessies as they still remain affordable.

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2372 - 2013-05-04 02:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Pelea Ming wrote:

megabeams may have the closest range/dps to 425s, but your forgetting that each races weapons aren't meant to be realistically compared on such a basis to one another. In terms of any such comparison (despite the fallacies of comparing different weapons to begin with) however, then the correct line of approach is to go with the largest long range weapon for each, and to make that complete (even though they aren't turrets) it should be 425, Tachyon, 1400, & Cruise Launchers.

In that case Tach's would need to be made similar in a number of aspects to 425's. Right now they overshadow them if they were more useable on a wider variety of platforms. The only way they wouldn't is if they required slots be wasted to make them part of a fit, but we all know how well that is going over.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2373 - 2013-05-04 03:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:

megabeams may have the closest range/dps to 425s, but your forgetting that each races weapons aren't meant to be realistically compared on such a basis to one another. In terms of any such comparison (despite the fallacies of comparing different weapons to begin with) however, then the correct line of approach is to go with the largest long range weapon for each, and to make that complete (even though they aren't turrets) it should be 425, Tachyon, 1400, & Cruise Launchers.

In that case Tach's would need to be made similar in a number of aspects to 425's. Right now they overshadow them if they were more useable on a wider variety of platforms. The only way they wouldn't is if they required slots be wasted to make them part of a fit, but we all know how well that is going over.


Tach's have largely the same cap use as mega-beams but require a PG mod to fit on any BS. So according to the "tachs are OP keep them impossible to fit" crowd, they're so OP that Amarr's should be fitting a PG mod to gain all that OP'ness, but instead they're not, they're just fitting Arties and Tach's are relegated to Nightmares exclusively. There's one of two conclusions from this....mega-beams are either completely broken being that much like tach's in cap or tach's aren't actually that OP and should be made easier to fit (note I said easier and not as easy as 425).
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#2374 - 2013-05-04 04:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Jill Antaris wrote:

If you talk about the hype you talk about blasters(the new hype is the old mega and the old hype in one ship, both dedicated to blaster pvp), it is a bad rail ship(lock range is capped, tank/dps is limited, no tracking bonus, drones are not very useful at 100km once you need to move around the fleet every 30s). It will be even more terrible compared to the new mega when it hit the server(better EHP, better effective dps, better lock range, just as fast, perfect slot layout for the job). If you looking for a ship to contest the current abaddon for armor fleets it will be the new mega, not the new hype.


The Mega PG and CPU pretty close to the Hype, so even with the extra turret, the Mega still won't have to make very many fitting tradeoff's versus the Abaddon/Apoc. The Mega-beam Abaddon/Apoc can't even fit an MWD and Repper or MWD and Cap Booster without a PG mod, while the Mega can fit 425's, MWD, Repper, and Cap Booster with barely room to spare without the need of a PG mod. This isn't balance even when you ignore the cap costs which are largely the same as if he fitted Tach's.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2375 - 2013-05-04 05:47:49 UTC
Whelp, goodbye Geddon, and goodbye amarrian battleships. time to dust off my caldari/gallente battleships and pretend my amarrrian skillpoints dont exist.

oh well, maybe when CCP Rise gets around to screwing up Amarr faction battleships aswell, he'll have the courtesy to tell us to go **** ourselves before leaving and not looking back, you know, just so we are perfectly clear on where we stand with him.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#2376 - 2013-05-04 05:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
CCP Rise wrote:


UPDATE: Based on feedback concerns about Apocalypse cap I've given back a bit of its total cap pool, bringing its cap recharge up to almost 7cap/sec. Its also gained just a bit of armor hp. We will keep on eye on the cap situation throughout testing.

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% to Large Energy Turret optimal range
+7.5% Large Energy Turret tracking speed (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 7L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 21000 PWG(+500), 540 CPU(+35)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000(-211) / 7000(-500) / 7000(+359)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 7000(-500) / 1002s(-152s) / 6.99 (+.49)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 113(+19) / .119(-.017) / 97100000 / 16.02s (-2.29s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 73km(+5.5k) / 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Radar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 380(-20)

i like this better

i call it, Apocalypse 7

Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 7L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 21000 PWG(+500), 540 CPU(+35)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+578) / 7000(-500) / 7000(+359)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 7000(-500) / 1002s(-152s) / 7.0 (+.50)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 117(+23) / .117(-.015) / 97100000 / 16.02s (-2.29s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 77km(+9.5k) / 95 /7
Sensor strength: 20 Radar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 377(-17)

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2377 - 2013-05-04 07:37:26 UTC
Hmm, Oracle does more DPS than Apoc.

Why even give it a new model if its going to suck.
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#2378 - 2013-05-04 09:40:15 UTC
Cause it may suck as hell, but it suck with style.

Style > Use

At least for Amarr.
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#2379 - 2013-05-04 10:00:51 UTC
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2380 - 2013-05-04 11:38:11 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
The Mega PG and CPU pretty close to the Hype, so even with the extra turret, the Mega still won't have to make very many fitting tradeoff's versus the Abaddon/Apoc. The Mega-beam Abaddon/Apoc can't even fit an MWD and Repper or MWD and Cap Booster without a PG mod, while the Mega can fit 425's, MWD, Repper, and Cap Booster with barely room to spare without the need of a PG mod. This isn't balance even when you ignore the cap costs which are largely the same as if he fitted Tach's.

Balance is not based on pve considerations. All ships would be identical otherwise.