These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#681 - 2013-04-23 12:55:34 UTC
Although I appreciate that the matari battleships were in pretty good shape to begin with, I was thinking this might be a better way to arrange them.

Maelstrom:

Artillery and long range specialist - the thinking here is if it's at range, it doesn't need the shield boost bonus.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret tracking speed
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Tempest:

Kiting ship, a BS sized Stabber.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large projectile turret falloff

Typhoon

Close range heavy shield boost torpedo specialist. It's up close and is very much in the vein of the Breacher.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
+7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#682 - 2013-04-23 12:57:13 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Alek Row wrote:
I only would like if CCP was able to maintain a minimum of racial identity between the different races. Drones per instance, it seems that after the tiericide no Minmatar battleship will be able to fit 5 heavies, that will be something for Gallente/Amarr only, which is not that bad, it can be acceptable IF on the speed front, you would not make a Gallente attack battleship faster, lighter and more agile than a Minmatar attack battleship.

.



THAT! one HUNDRED BILLION TIMES!

Minmatar are not the drone race? OK. But gallente are not supposed to be faster than minmatar as well!


For god sake.. What is current racial identity in the freaking tempest vs Hyperion compare? Or Tempest vs Megatrhon.

More hundred billions times!
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#683 - 2013-04-23 13:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Galphii wrote:
Although I appreciate that the matari battleships were in pretty good shape to begin with, I was thinking this might be a better way to arrange them.

Maelstrom:

Artillery and long range specialist - the thinking here is if it's at range, it doesn't need the shield boost bonus.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret tracking speed
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Tempest:

Kiting ship, a BS sized Stabber.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large projectile turret falloff

Typhoon

Close range heavy shield boost torpedo specialist. It's up close and is very much in the vein of the Breacher.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:

+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
+7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount


This is how they should have done it. I don't agree with your vision for the Tempest but- no one agrees on that ship! Roll. The frigates and cruisers they changed were easy because no one was using them. The battleships are used and have their fan clubs. As a result CCP is tip-toeing rather then making sweeping changes that would make the BS lines a more natural progression.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#684 - 2013-04-23 13:36:38 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Galphii wrote:
Although I appreciate that the matari battleships were in pretty good shape to begin with, I was thinking this might be a better way to arrange them.

Maelstrom:

Artillery and long range specialist - the thinking here is if it's at range, it doesn't need the shield boost bonus.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret tracking speed
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Tempest:

Kiting ship, a BS sized Stabber.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large projectile turret falloff

Typhoon

Close range heavy shield boost torpedo specialist. It's up close and is very much in the vein of the Breacher.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:

+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
+7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount


This is how they should have done it. I don't agree with your vision for the Tempest but- no one agrees on that ship! Roll. The frigates and cruisers they changed were easy because no one was using them. The battleships are used and have their fan clubs. As a result CCP is tip-toeing rather then making sweeping changes that would make the BS lines a more natural progression.



The only thing problematic with that propostal is that 5% rof with 6 turrets do not cut it DPS wise. Would need to increase it to 8% per level. Fixing that.. it would be an excelent proposal.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gustav Mannfred
Summer of Mumuit
Remember Mumuit
#685 - 2013-04-23 14:24:00 UTC
I find these changes nice, but the folowing imnot finding good:

Maelstrom:

- Increase speed , this ship is VERY SLOW for a minnmatar ship

Typhoon:

- give it back his 225 m3 dronebay
- replace the explosive velocity bonus to a shield or armorrepair bonus (i dont know, how people will tank this ship, it has 500 hp more on shield. It has the same tankammount of a machariel or vindicator, we see these ships often with shieldtank and lots of damage and damage supportmodules in the lows)

i'm REALY miss the old stuff. 

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183
Gal'o Sengen
Doomheim
#686 - 2013-04-23 14:35:07 UTC
An active tank bonus on the Typhoon is an absurdly terrible idea. It cannot fit dual ASB's, and its Capacitor is far too weak to sustain a cap based tank. Giving it an active tank bonus means either forcing it into using double Cap Boosters, thus completely destroying any utility it has while also gimping its tank to an insane degree, or it means reversing its Mid/Low slot layout, which makes it a crappier Raven.

Giving it an Armor rep bonus is an equally bad idea, because simply put, nobody would use it because the ship is better Shield tanked.

One ASB simply does not cut it on a BS with 5 mids. Your resists are too low to keep up with incoming DPS, and your buffer is too small to survive a reload.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#687 - 2013-04-23 15:25:32 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

versatiliity? Lol You mean being useless? versatilily is just a polite way to say HORRIBLE! THis game is a game about specialization.

All the minmatar ships taht are successful are NOT VERSATILE!

Versatility is the shortest path to mediocricity



They should have given 3rd bonus to keep races identity. Give gallente a MWD speed bonus but with harder time turning. Perfect for blasters. Give minmatar a bonus for AB or for agility while MWD is on .

What they have now is screwed races identities that were among the best things in the game


yeah.... no.
tempest, rupture, rifter, oldtyphoon. all have multiple, quite distinct fitting options.
since tiericide, you can count in the slasher as well. although it has lost some ground the cane is still quite adaptable too.
maybe they are not the best in every field, but come on, this are T1 hulls. if you want to get specialised go fly T2 ships.


a bonus for some form of active tank on the typhoon would be horrible. as the phoon is proposed right now, it's quite fun. test it out on duality. forcing it to either shield or armor tank actively would destroy the last resemblance it has with its former self.
would be the same as giving it a new name and a completly different model.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#688 - 2013-04-23 15:34:54 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

versatiliity? Lol You mean being useless? versatilily is just a polite way to say HORRIBLE! THis game is a game about specialization.

All the minmatar ships taht are successful are NOT VERSATILE!

Versatility is the shortest path to mediocricity



They should have given 3rd bonus to keep races identity. Give gallente a MWD speed bonus but with harder time turning. Perfect for blasters. Give minmatar a bonus for AB or for agility while MWD is on .

What they have now is screwed races identities that were among the best things in the game


yeah.... no.
tempest, rupture, rifter, oldtyphoon. all have multiple, quite distinct fitting options.
since tiericide, you can count in the slasher as well. although it has lost some ground the cane is still quite adaptable too.
maybe they are not the best in every field, but come on, this are T1 hulls. if you want to get specialised go fly T2 ships.


a bonus for some form of active tank on the typhoon would be horrible. as the phoon is proposed right now, it's quite fun. test it out on duality. forcing it to either shield or armor tank actively would destroy the last resemblance it has with its former self.
would be the same as giving it a new name and a completly different model.


The tempest is a near failure, the rifter is now considered among the worst frigates . Only the rupture was and still is good. Because its focused .. its focused on packing DAMAGE WITH SPEED.

The typhoon thing is more of a geenral aIdea how the ships coudl bvery well have been developed FROM THE START. To give them clear roles that do not overlap among them... I know it risks resemblance with the old ships.

But I do not get why people take ressemblance with the old ship as MORE IMPORTANT than ressemblance with the RACIAL IDENTITY (not saying the typhoon do not have that identity, just a broad observation on people's reactions)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#689 - 2013-04-23 16:05:15 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


But I do not get why people take ressemblance with the old ship as MORE IMPORTANT than ressemblance with the RACIAL IDENTITY (not saying the typhoon do not have that identity, just a broad observation on people's reactions)


first, when you like certain ships you do not want them to change too much in character.
secondly, when you make racial identity too strict, you forcing all ships of one race in a certain niche. for example minmatar ships very thought of as superior to every other kind of ship (except angel-ships maybe..) in small gang skirmish warfare and the close range blaster and/or drone doctrine of gallente made then near to useless in big fleets. so why not soften up those identities to allow for viable choices in every racial set up?

if you ask me ccp as done quite a job at making more ships viable and still retain differences between the races.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#690 - 2013-04-23 16:11:00 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


But I do not get why people take ressemblance with the old ship as MORE IMPORTANT than ressemblance with the RACIAL IDENTITY (not saying the typhoon do not have that identity, just a broad observation on people's reactions)


first, when you like certain ships you do not want them to change too much in character.
secondly, when you make racial identity too strict, you forcing all ships of one race in a certain niche. for example minmatar ships very thought of as superior to every other kind of ship (except angel-ships maybe..) in small gang skirmish warfare and the close range blaster and/or drone doctrine of gallente made then near to useless in big fleets. so why not soften up those identities to allow for viable choices in every racial set up?

if you ask me ccp as done quite a job at making more ships viable and still retain differences between the races.



Soften is OK, inversion of racial identities is not. I can say exact same thing for specific ships? Why not change the ships to use the roles already open by their races flavors?

Its much easier and more logical to make the typhoon a fast torpedo boat then to make the Hyperion in a kiting ship (just extrapolating into a very stupid idea to illustrate my point)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#691 - 2013-04-23 16:32:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Soften is OK, inversion of racial identities is not. I can say exact same thing for specific ships? Why not change the ships to use the roles already open by their races flavors?

Its much easier and more logical to make the typhoon a fast torpedo boat then to make the Hyperion in a kiting ship (just extrapolating into a very stupid idea to illustrate my point)


i see your point but i think you are overexaggerating a little
ccp did not invert those identities. i guess you refer to the megathron being a little faster and lighter than the tempest?
the megathron needs this tiny speedadvantage over the tempest to have a chance at ever catching one. Tempest has a range advantage as the mega needs to get quite close to apply its magnificient firepower. it's bonusses are dedicated to brawling.
if you fit your tempest as shield tank you'll actually will be faster then a megathron as it will loose speed and agility because of its armor tank.

Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#692 - 2013-04-23 16:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Soften is OK, inversion of racial identities is not. I can say exact same thing for specific ships? Why not change the ships to use the roles already open by their races flavors?

Its much easier and more logical to make the typhoon a fast torpedo boat then to make the Hyperion in a kiting ship (just extrapolating into a very stupid idea to illustrate my point)


i see your point but i think you are overexaggerating a little
ccp did not invert those identities. i guess you refer to the megathron being a little faster and lighter than the tempest?
the megathron needs this tiny speedadvantage over the tempest to have a chance at ever catching one. Tempest has a range advantage as the mega needs to get quite close to apply its magnificient firepower. it's bonusses are dedicated to brawling.
if you fit your tempest as shield tank you'll actually will be faster then a megathron as it will loose speed and agility because of its armor tank.



Mega should be more agile, but most definitely not faster when fit identically, which it is. If you're getting kited in a short range blaster ship away from gate by a kiting paper rust bucket, tough ******* princess, that's what happens if you're not in tackle range or don't everheat all your mids very quickly.

Oh yeah when I say short range...I actually mean mid range, since null takes large neutrons up to 30 and beyond lol minmatar falloff.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Alek Row
Silent Step
#693 - 2013-04-23 16:42:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Alek Row
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
So why not soften up those identities to allow for viable choices in every racial set up?


They did soften up with the mass/agility changes. And the speed difference was so big that they had to do it.
Lot's of Gallente ships in the same class are now faster under MWD than Minmatar, and that's fine.
(Check Incursus / Breacher mwd speed per example).

One thing is to soften up, other thing is to invert it.
There is no need for that when we are talking about the only mobility perk Minmatar still had left (Base Speed).
You can't give all mobility attributes to one race only, I though that they had learned it a few years ago.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#694 - 2013-04-23 17:56:54 UTC
Alek Row wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
So why not soften up those identities to allow for viable choices in every racial set up?


They did soften up with the mass/agility changes. And the speed difference was so big that they had to do it.
Lot's of Gallente ships in the same class are now faster under MWD than Minmatar, and that's fine.
(Check Incursus / Breacher mwd speed per example).



:) i know.
i asked that question so that Karuga Nikon would bring his/her arguments on why stricter identities would be better.

at this point we need those proposed changes on singularity, so that a bigger audience can actually test them. few people bother with duality.

Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#695 - 2013-04-23 18:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Kagura Nikon wrote:
versatiliity? Lol You mean being useless? versatilily is just a polite way to say HORRIBLE! THis game is a game about specialization.

All the minmatar ships taht are successful are NOT VERSATILE!

Versatility is the shortest path to mediocricity


Try telling that to my good friend the hurricane. :)

There is a reason we use Minmatar ships as the mainstay of all our corp fleets, because they can be adapted very easily to a lot of different situations. Perhaps people who don't run corporations may not understand how useful this is.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#696 - 2013-04-23 18:35:28 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Typhoon

Close range heavy shield boost torpedo specialist. It's up close and is very much in the vein of the Breacher.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
+7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount


The shield boost bonus should have been on the missile ship so this is correct. The trouble is then you would need a much different slot layout on the Typhoon, possibly reducing low slots and giving it even more mids, making it exclusively a shield tanker, and thus making it even even more like a Raven. :)
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#697 - 2013-04-23 19:31:04 UTC
It isn't too hard to rearrange a Typhoon to shield tank or to give it the fittings to fit X-LASB. 7-7-5 or 7-6-6 are the only options. But a Typhoon vs Raven comparison would be tank vs range. - as it is in comparisons with other ship classes between the two races.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#698 - 2013-04-23 21:26:28 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
It isn't too hard to rearrange a Typhoon to shield tank or to give it the fittings to fit X-LASB. 7-7-5 or 7-6-6 are the only options. But a Typhoon vs Raven comparison would be tank vs range. - as it is in comparisons with other ship classes between the two races.


And then the Raven would lose because it has both no tank and less ability to hit smaller targets, whereas the Typhoon is an XLASB monstrosity with explosion velocity bonused missiles. I don't support the new Typhoon being a shield ship, because it WILL overpower the Raven in almost every forseeable circumstance. I don't want a weak Typhoon; I want one that is still quite competent, but differentiated from the Raven, so that perhaps both of them have reasons for you to look into flying one in a variety of situations. Not just "Eugh, **** the Raven, go buy a Typhoon, don't ever even think about touching Faildari again, Winmatar forever".
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#699 - 2013-04-23 21:31:57 UTC
Typhoon - Rate of fire + shield boost
Raven - Rate of fire + velocity.

You seem to be implying that I support a shield boosted Typhoon with a ROF bonus AND an explosion velocity bonus. Hum. No.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#700 - 2013-04-23 22:27:26 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Typhoon - Rate of fire + shield boost
Raven - Rate of fire + velocity.

You seem to be implying that I support a shield boosted Typhoon with a ROF bonus AND an explosion velocity bonus. Hum. No.


It could work but is still far to close to a Raven for my liking. Pigeon holing it into a shield tank fitting is going even further down that path.

I must admit making the Typhoon a shield boosting ship instead of the mael does make sense though ship progression wise, but then everything else would need a massive rethink.