These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Skill Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#501 - 2013-04-19 02:06:01 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Even so, battleships is not a reasonable goal for a new player. A new player should be setting goals like making my first 10 mil isk. perfecting cruiser skills, etc. you can have a lot of fun with cruisers within the first weeks of playing. you need about 10 mil skill points to be effective with a battleship. Yet most of the support skills you will need for that battleship are equally beneficial to the cruiser you can be flying in you first month.

Do all the tutorials, run the sisters of EVE epic arc, decide which cruiser you want to focus on and get very good with it. A well skilled and well fitted cruiser can fly level 3 missions easily. That is a good goal to start with. By the time you are established and have enough isk to start losing battleships you will not be far of skill wise from flying them. Getting the skills to sit in a battleship as quickly as possible does you no good if you do not have the support skills to actually fly it. You will lose it, and chances are if you were not ready to fly it, you can not afford to replace it either.

"Do not fly, what you can not afford to lose." learn it, and live it, or you will get nothing but frustration from EVE.



True, but the same also applies to minmatar cruisers too, where a fair amount are a mix of projectile/ missile and drone capabilities, so training for those is still longer than more traditional designs with the amarr or caldari.


The main reason why after having been playing the game now for 10 years is that minmatar have the most even balanced ships in the game, given their ability to do all damage types with projectiles or autocannons, the same applies for missiles and you can add FOF missiles even when hostiles have you locked and ECM'd, and also use drones yourself, which can be the ECM variety to jam other targets.


I few everything in game and have nearly 100 million skill points in ship command alone and yes, the 200 million mark is coming by late next month, and while every race has excellent ships in their own right, they come up a little short in versatility in a variety of environments and it's a quality that doesn't translate in a DPS chart and is up to the pilot to have a setup that can handle a variety of situations effectively.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#502 - 2013-04-19 08:07:33 UTC
IIshira wrote:

TLDR

If so many people dislike the basic concept of Eve why are they still paying for an account to post here? Are they just trolling or maybe they just haven't figured out the big picture of Eve yet?



I love the SP concept in general.

But since I'm a rational person, I can still see a few shortcomings - especially for new players - that could and should be addressed.
Rocketfeller
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#503 - 2013-04-19 15:13:51 UTC
In case anyone makes it this far into the thread, I'll give a low-SP newbie's opinion.

EVE definitely is not for everyone, so I wouldn't expect everyone who starts a trial to become a long term player. If I started with five friends and they all quit, I wouldn't take that as evidence that something is wrong with the game.

You can be an effective T1 frigate pilot in under a week. Within a month you can be dangerous. Now you may not consider flying a T1 frigate to be your ultimate goal, but it is the soul of the game, and it's what newbies should be doing. Hell, it's what everyone should be doing at least some of the time.

The time it takes to train skills serves a purpose. That purpose is to allow you to accumulate game experience before you move into bigger ships. If you cut that short, you might have a lot of SP, but you won't be worth a damn as a pilot.

Flying a T1 frigate with level 3 skills instead of level 5 gives you more real flying experience. Everything you do as a pilot is more critical. And losses are not failures if you learn from them.

In short, if you are not having fun in EVE because you are waiting for more SP, then you are doing it terribly wrong.
Fourthfalcon
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#504 - 2013-04-19 16:05:34 UTC
I have found one of the keys to enjoying eve as a relatively low SP character was knowing when to ignore the advice of some veteran players. Many people will tell you that you need near perfect skills to do a thing or that thing is not worth doing at all. They are almost always wrong.

I was told I needed at least 10 million SP to fly a battleship in level 4 missions effectively. I was making enough money in level 4s to buy two plex a month and all the ships I wanted starting at around 4.5 million SP. I still don't have 10 Million skill points. Yes I lost ships early on, but I cannot imagine it would have been better to just sit in level 3s until I had BS 5 and T2 guns.

In PvE the only real solid advice was don't put all your money in one ship, and get T2 drones before flying battleships.




Phillip Jokar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#505 - 2013-04-19 21:24:56 UTC
SP only matters if you think it does.

If you want to go do something but have it stuck in you're head that you have to train forever to do it, then YOU'RE limiting yourself, not the game.

If some action in the game interests you, it usually takes a max of a month to be able to dive headfirst into it and not look back. But for some reason people let themselves walk into things with the mindset of "I have to train for this this this this this this this to be effective" **** YOUR 10% BONUS TO DOING SOMETHING RELATED TO THE AREA OF INTEREST, JUST GO DO IT.

Yes, you can train SP that will make things EASIER, but you don't need those to do things in the first place.

Dive in you pansy.
Harald Heminwe
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2013-04-20 00:47:55 UTC
I am a new player. I have one account. One Charcter. About 2.5 mil Skillpoint and about 1.2 bil isk in cash and assets. short below of 2 months gaming.

I would assume that puts me in the category "bloody noob".

I would like to address 3 things about the "skillwall"

what i can do after 2 months (which i would also see as the determined casual lvlgrind time for maxleveling a WoW char)


  • skillwise to do exploring scanning down everything in highsec and could probaly scan down a lot in low and nul (with increased risk of course as i need a scan frig to get to my scan strenght)
    Basic PI
    fly ships up to battlecruisers of one race with halfways reasonable gear
    fly a noctis (skillwise and own one)
    rat in nulsec
    participate in frig-gang pvp in the roles of DD, tackler and logi
    i have rudimentary tradeskills to sell my loot at my own price tag
    i can do lvl 3 security missions and fly DED 4 sites
    theoretically i can do minor mining and minor hauling with the tutorial ships iteron/venture.
    i can easily replace any of my ships and implants (+4s)


i think that is not so bad for one month. In pvp i can do tackle, ewar, logi and dd.

unlike my WoW Mage that could only do DD and crowd control and crafting. the time spent grinding levels, skills and gear still was much much more to get to a usable point than in eve to get to this.

Sure i do not have really big shinies but i can participate in bigger operations as as tackler small scale logi or ewarsupporter Unlike WoW where you can forget that with anything less than a max out char with good gear. you have 0 impact on high end chars as a newb.

while in wow thats the end of leveling and the start of endless farming in eve there ist still much "uncharted land" to go.. systemwise, skillwise and pathwise.

I'm sorry for you that your friends left but i do not feel like them. I climb a molehill and see much land to go and a new hill on the horizon, knowing behind that a chain of mountains will be at the next horizon with more land in between.

Sure i'm not a pro in my stuff, but thats making stuff interesting making ends meet. I recall i was absolutely new und untrained in explo and i asked around looked at ships and modules to get as much strenght to my core probes as i could. practising on my routes to take it up against all the competition in scanfrigs, drakes and tengus vying for the same sites as i did. Hitting signatures and beeing up at 98% and then trying to squeeze the final 2% out of my 5 probes. The process of scanning will not be the ame when i skilled the skills and easily scan down stuff..the intrigue will be lost doing the process. even if i can run more sites than now.

Scanning for Radars and finding DED/4 in highsec selling and/or give away the positions to older players who could run them got me some nice acquintances looting/salvaging with my little frig behind them financed my noctis. After a day it was paid for itself. Seeing the rotating buttons of the tractors and salvagers sucking isk out of the wreckage the first time just woah. Small stuff, small successes which may not mean anything to you anymore can still be a lot of fun to newbs. At one day scanning, salvaging, etc will be routine doing incursion vanguards in 8min tact will be routine to get isk once ive got my shiney. But never will i forget 3 spider tanking frigs doing scouts or my myrmidon joining in in an vanguard crew "we dont lose ships" actually surviving learning a day later, armor comp skills what is that?



OP, i think and i might be wrong with that, you were to impatient with them. You should have started a plain new char rather than buying a new and show your friends the little stuff you can only enjoy as an innocent newb and possibly re-discover it for yourself. Beeing a newb is something special - you are only once. and when you stop beeing it you will never be it again (in this game).

After all skilling through all skills takes about 17 years with max implants from day one so i'd surmise even day 1 - vets have quite a bit "skillwall" ahead of them. But we have that feat in this game that we can skill multiple characters afk.

One point i concede though. I find it dickish of CCP that only one skillqueue per account be active. And for your "problem" i would think would be the simplest solution. with this people without money to pay for multiple accounts or time to farm billions isk for alt accounts and beeing able to reach specialisation in more career paths.

2 c from a newb.










digitalwanderer
DW inc
#507 - 2013-04-20 13:04:19 UTC
Harald Heminwe wrote:


After all skilling through all skills takes about 17 years with max implants from day one so i'd surmise even day 1 - vets have quite a bit "skillwall" ahead of them. But we have that feat in this game that we can skill multiple characters afk.





Mathematically speaking what you stated is quite true, but what if the char in question isn't interested in maxing out every skill available?


See I started out with the basic premise that CCP has been pushing ever since the game was launched in 2003...."This is above all else, a space ship game", so while there are other activities that have been implemented or expanded since the game was launched like marketing skills, research, production, social skills and corporation skills when talking at the highest levels( meaning forming aliances here), I have no interest in these at all and that greatly reduces the amount of skills needed to train and I am a 10 year old char here that's not far from getting 200 skills to lvl 5 as it is.


So what I seek is even nuttier challenges that put even the most seasoned veteran in a pause, be it because of the prices involved or the crazy training times that makes training and maxing a titan skill tree look easy by comparison, and I do realize that it's by making the game easier that you might attract new players, but don't forget those who have been here since the start and were key( with their subscriptions) to get the game to where it is today, even if we're a small minority of the overall player base.


In my particular case, i'll have all the skills i'm interested in maxed within the next 2 years( about 260 skills), by which time the char should reach roughly 250 million SP, and while I realize that if CCP releases content aimed for the older crowd, the younger players will complain that it increases the skill point gap between the newer and older players even further, but the bottom line is that a lot of the older players have either quit already or only log in to train skills......The game has no new challenges left for the veteran players, and doing the same things hundreds of times eventually gets boring, and we've done them all over the past 10 years( be it ships for specific roles, missions, PVP, aliances, mining, exploration, sleeper space, incursions, etc..), so it's time for some seriously new content for the old farts of the game here.
trevormax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#508 - 2013-04-20 16:17:52 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Hi,

1. So I have come to like more "mature" MMOS and eve struck me as one of the best.
I started playing 2 months ago and just lost all the friends I brought into eve.

2. This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.

3. Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.

4. My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics.

5. So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away

6. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.

7. I am sure the long SP training ques are CCP's way of "milking" $ out of us.

8. Which proves a point to me. Every one that I have spoken to that plays eve has at least 1-4 alts.
So that in itself proves how low the game population actually is.

9. Now this isn't a troll or whining thread.

10. If CCP truly wanted to make more $ something needs to be done about SP.

11. The longer the game progresses the more useless new players become.

12. Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

13. So this is as constructive as a new player can get.
I am not mad in any way.

14. I actually want to help eve grow, that's the whole reason of this thread.
I want to know if anything is being done about the huge SP brick wall.

15. From what I am seeing the summer change is making it even harder for new players.
Battle cruisers were a huge win for new players as it didn't take too long to fly them and now it's even taking that small win away from new players.

16. So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

17. Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

18. This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

19. I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.

20. If I could talk to the right people I could really guarantee new players sticking around instead of getting discouraged and quitting.

Regards: Hefty


1. Make new friends in EVE. There are no rules against making new friends.

2. This is your opinion. However this is not fact.

3. again, opinion. Not fact.

4. My opinion here is that you were doing it wrong. Maybe if you'd actually tried played the game instead of reading up on things you might have actually learned something.

5. So when they go to college, do they moan and complain after a month because they are not masters of whatever they are studying? Some things take time. Part of the reward of EVE is accomplishing something or completing a skill that lets you do something new. If that doesn't sound like your thing and you want stuff handed to you on a silver platter, go back to WOW. EVE is not meant to be easy.

6. What happened? did you learn that SP are not the be all and end all of this game? player skill is just as important as SP.

7. You are of course an expert. You have been playing for a couple months. Why you could probably write a number of books detailing everything there is to know about EVE and CCP.

8. Well I guess you are wrong again. I know plenty of people with only one account. Players that have been around for years.

9. I beg to differ

10. Yes, because the game hasn't been going for almost a decade already. CCP should hurry or it might not last another decade.

11. More opinions from our new expert EVE player.

12. So are you suggesting here that new players should start with 100mil SP? It sound a lot like you are. Maybe they should also get a free titan.

13. Yes you are

14. No you don't. You are just moaning about something you know nothing about instead of trying to learn how to play the game properly.

15. How exactly? They are making the battle cruiser skill a racial skill. You can still hop in to a BC in the same amount of time. Some might say they are making it easier for you to get in to a BC.

16. Nothing because nothing needs to be done.

17. Features and Ideas sub-forum. But maybe you should be more specific when you post there. Post exactly what you are trying to skill up for, how you are doing it, how long it takes, what your goal is etc etc. Don't just pluck random numbers and rubbish assumptions out of your backside.

18. Undock, do some epic arc missions, speak to people in the game, join a training corp like RvB or EVEUni, go to lowsec and have a fight. In other words, PLAY THE GAME.

19. If you truly want to see it grow, stick around. When you have an actual idea about how the game works, then think about how exactly it can be improved. Post your suggestion in the correct forum and don't act like a child when people say things you dont like.

20. You sound like you think you know what you are talking about but you don't. CCP know their game. If you start demanding changes when you obviously dont know anything about the game, do you really think they will listen to you?

There. I think I answered your questions. No doubt you will not read what I wrote and just say "You have not answered my questions blah blah blah.
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#509 - 2013-04-20 23:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
The whole skill brick wall argument has been in use for the last 9 years now.....Basically ever since I only had 10 million skill points and new players back then were starting out fresh, yet they still complain about it even today, despite these changes:


1: Players start out with 800K sp.
2: They train double speed to 1.6 million SP.
3: There's no advanced learning skills to train up.
4: There's learning implants and the ability to make isk to easily afford them.
5: There a learning remap right from the start.


I'm not even mentioning the speed at which it's possible to make isk or simply buy plexes from CCP and sell them on the market, so players don't have to effectively do anything but use their real world wallet for all their in game isk needs, which I happen to think is wrong and a large contributor for why there's far too many super capitals in game as they can easily be bought by players....They simply don't have to work at it in game, which is a huge contrast when compared to when I started playing the game.



There's a lot still screwed with the game balance and content wise, but skill points aren't it as this has never been an instant gratification game to begin with, such as things like the mineral prices being totally screwed up with the cheapest mineral being one of the most profitable to mine(WTF???), or the second most expensive mineral in the game( Zidrine) being far too cheap.


There's the ever lagging introduction of more T3 ships, which the current cruisers are 2 years old already and there's no sign of when more will be released.....At this pace, i'll die of old age in real life before i'll actually see all classes in game, and the initial plan for those who don't know was for the game to have 5 classes of ships( yup, tech 1 thru tech 5).....Back in 2003 i'd never imagine we'd be lagging this far behind after 10 years to be honest.


Storyline wise the game hasn't evolved much as we still don't know anything more about the jove( the possibility was mentioned for players to eventually become jove in time), or the other ancient races, or the story with sleeper space, or any attempts to open the eve gate and see if earth still exists on the other side, or if they remember those that passed thru the gate after 20 000 years have gone by, or perhaps they now have a massive technical lead even when compared to jove standards......The game has gotten stale and needs a good kick in the ass IMO.
Vega Makutu
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#510 - 2013-04-23 00:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vega Makutu
If all your friends quit, go meet more people in game.

Skill points help you, but if you keep putting off doing anything until you reach some far reaching goal, you're going to be bored.


Also, the phrase "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" comes to mind.
What good is being able to fly the best ship if you won't?

Most likely, the guys who can fly all the high class tech II ships won't - they'll be coming at you in a tech I frigate because the loss of that ship won't hurt much.

EVE is a game of lies and bluffs, imo.
Example:
I came up on a venture who was mining, he bolted. I left his wrecks alone, because maybe he went to go get a different ship, maybe he had friends; I didn't feel like replacing my thrasher at that point. ;) But maybe he left because *I* was the scary one.

I just started a week ago, on my own. This game is really only limited by the individuals that play it - get out there and be scary. :)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#511 - 2013-04-23 00:50:36 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
To get the core skills to an OK-ish level takes about 1.5 years.
That's like STANDARD level certs.

Also "subs are at an all time high".
You mean everyone has like 1-5 alts.
Speak to some miners and find out how many alts they have...

I would estimate 30-50% of subs are unique players.
Also the whole reason why people have alts is to train different skill paths.
This is the only game I have ever come across that people have this many alts.
I mean CCP promotes it. "start your sidekick".

Also you aren't getting the jest of this post.
I only had three real questions in my post. You answered non of them.
I just assume you are really young and can't understand or fathom discussions.
Thanx for the free bump though :D



Certificates are irrelevant. REally irrelevant they mean nothign and are nto even useful as a guide to what players shoudl train. THey were just an excuse of a feature to add so a certai nexpansion would not have ZERO new things.

If you even look at them.. you are doing WRONG

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#512 - 2013-04-23 13:36:18 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



Certificates are irrelevant. REally irrelevant they mean nothign and are nto even useful as a guide to what players shoudl train. THey were just an excuse of a feature to add so a certai nexpansion would not have ZERO new things.

If you even look at them.. you are doing WRONG



That's the general idea I get from CCP with regards to the general direction that the game has been going for the last few years, basically confusing the trees for the forest....They add specific features to bolster certain aspects that matter to a specific portion of the player base, but don't concentrate at all in aspects where being an new player or an old player with lots of SP, or rich doesn't matter at all and that would mean evolving EVE's storyline in a very global way that affects everyone.


Seriously, does anyone care about Dust 514 when we've been concentrating on space based combat for the last 10 years and controlling the resources from that environment?, that it actually matters what happens on the surface of a planet?....The only way I could see it matter is if controlling a planet mattered to the sovereignty of the entire system, and when enough planets are under control, then control of the entire solar system becomes possible....

It would unite those that play EVE the space game with those that play EVE the ground combat game in common cause, but given the huge amount of planets in eve, it would require a huge amount of players if every planet in the eve cluster was conquerable, so I say only the temperate ones should be fought for, since their atmosphere and temperatures don't require people to put on special suits, and allow them to colonize the planet and turn it into a civilization in time.


This is just an example, and there's many more to expand upon, but I want to keep the message short...P
Anthar Thebess
#513 - 2013-04-23 13:52:37 UTC
For me every new char after a month of playing should receive a possibility to get a pre-designed skill pattern.
LVL 5 on choosed race frigate
LVL 4 support skills
LVL 5 gunnery/missiles ( 1 small weapon)
LVL 4 support skills

If someone already trained some of those skills - all skill points that don't ave to be applied - will go to unallocated queue.

From my perspective this is nothing - truly nothing form perspective of someone who played a long time.
On the other hand.
New player having a possibility to use T2 Frigate / and T2 Guns - this will be priceless for him and to be honest - for a minor beginning skill buff - you can keep a bigger number of players that after first:
"OMG EVE IS GRATE"
get to the point
"OMG I CANNOT USE/FLY ANY THING USEFULL FOR THE NEXT 3 MONTHS."

It takes time to understand that you have this "second" feeling for few next years :)


Velicitia
XS Tech
#514 - 2013-04-23 14:23:16 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:

Seriously, does anyone care about Dust 514 when we've been concentrating on space based combat for the last 10 years and controlling the resources from that environment?, that it actually matters what happens on the surface of a planet?....The only way I could see it matter is if controlling a planet mattered to the sovereignty of the entire system, and when enough planets are under control, then control of the entire solar system becomes possible....


That's kinda the plan Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#515 - 2013-04-23 15:19:31 UTC
2 quick points:

First off, if EVERYONE could get some *new accelerated skillpoint bonus* then they would all be exactly equal would't they.
More or less they would have no advantage over any other new player.
So in reality, they wouldn't *gain* anything. They would in fact, LOSE more expensive ships and fittings.

Second, I NEVER felt like I was useless. I knew what my strengths and limiltations were, and I did the best with what I had.
I knew that training was all I needed and each goal was motivational to me.
My point is: ( I have stated it before) Fun is a state of mind. Skill points are not the main ingredient for fun. They are not required at all tbh. If you are the type of person that is NEVER SATISFIED, then all the skill points in EVE will not fix you.


Ninja Edit Here.
I cannot believe I am still following this thread Oops
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#516 - 2013-04-23 15:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
Velicitia wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:

Seriously, does anyone care about Dust 514 when we've been concentrating on space based combat for the last 10 years and controlling the resources from that environment?, that it actually matters what happens on the surface of a planet?....The only way I could see it matter is if controlling a planet mattered to the sovereignty of the entire system, and when enough planets are under control, then control of the entire solar system becomes possible....


That's kinda the plan Blink



It not mattering in the big scheme of things or it never gets further developed?


I mean we all saw the videos where a dreadnaught fires on the planet surface almost 2 years ago, and now we have to settle with using destroyers and special ammo when the ships have to remain at 300~400 kms above the surface of a planet to avoid entering the atmosphere as gravity is a pain and tritanium explodes in contact with oxygen which is the main component in a ships hull, the ships don't have that kind of locking range nor do the small guns they use have the firing range either.


It's an operation made in heaven for a dreadnaught because it can lock and fire from those ranges with no special ammo needs, and we're not getting what was shown, so CCP should be ashamed of itself for releasing half done content like this....It's one of the reasons why the game has become a chat channel with graphics for me and I hardly play it these days.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#517 - 2013-04-26 21:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Thanks for injecting more PLEX into the system so old bastards like me can play free of, meaningful, charge.

On Topic: Sell more PLEX.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#518 - 2013-04-27 09:03:22 UTC
I'll start this by saying that I am a new player myself. I just started in late July of this past summer. So, you want someone to give answers to precisely your three questions? Here we go.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this
huge problem EVE faces?
There is no problem. People have gotten too used to games giving them the "golden carrot" within a few months. It's refreshing to have a game out there that still makes you either wait, or pay out the ass to bypass the training time.

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
Try pestering actual CCP employees, like Dolan or Soundwave.

This game is truly great but how does any new
player have a chance at experiencing that
greatness?
I moved to nullsec, and was flying in 200+ man fleets when my character was roughly a month old. Was I in the doctrine ships? Of course not. However, EWAR frigs and tackle ships can be effectively flown by a day one character. They don't need to be in anything bigger (and more expensive) until they've improved their playing skills (not just SP).

To close:
Hell, my sp training isn't even specialized. I went wide instead of deep, and after 8 months, I can fly any T1 subcap. Throw the certs out the window, find out what you need to train to get you into the ship you want (with meta weapons as needed). Some skills are relatively pointless to take to L5 anyway, unless you are out of other useful stuff to train. Tactical Shield Manipulation is a good example. You hit L4 to use T2 hardeners, and you're pretty much done with that skill for now. Cloaking is another good example.
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#519 - 2013-04-27 10:35:09 UTC
training system is one of things that makes EVE what it is - break it and you get something, but that won't be EVE anymore...

however, saying that you _need_ huge amount of SP is simply not true, let's check what you can (efficiently) do with up to two weeks of training:
- fly frigs in pve and pvp (and yes, you will pull your weight in pvp)
- scan things down, therefore do exploration
- sit in noctis and collect > 30m of loot/h (of course you will need someone to make wrecks)
- mine
- do PE
- trade
- be (decent) bait in pvp
- lead a corporation. play fleet commander (and basically anything of that sort - you pretty much need 0 SP for that, only proper RL management skills)

to fly BS effectively, you will need a lot longer ofc (but who wants to fly bs anyway? :) ), same goes for caps; battlecruisers have much lower entry level, as do cruisers and both will earn you good place in any low-sec pvp (perhaps 0.0 as well); yu can train up for decent industrial skills within a month, and you can even join wh runs or equivalent with less then that if you accept role as scout, prober, salvager or something else then main combat pilot. So I strongly disagree that you NEED ton of SP to play EVE, if anything playing with lower SP will teach you stuff while losing lot less ISK due to silly mistakes (and you will do those, everyone does)

just stop thinking about 'end-game', flying capital ships and similar and you will be fine (in these aspects, EVE is much different then typical MMO - things that typical MMO consider 'end-game' either do not exist or are arguably dumbest and most boring part of EVE)

also, you can play alone or in small group (although having mentorship of player with significant knowledge of EVE (and not in SP) will help you a lot - in EVE, meta game >> game mechanics, many things are not as one would expect from game-mechanics (or even as they are 'designed' to be)
Royaldo
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Clever Use of Neutral Toons
#520 - 2013-04-27 13:03:38 UTC
The gap only goes so far. Because there are only so many skills which can effect the ship you are in.
After a certain point, you are mainly just polishing some very small details.