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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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C C P Alliance
#621 - 2013-04-19 18:00:48 UTC
Muul Udonii wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
In addition, we also may consider eliminating the cache to eliminate this practice and for performance reasons.


But then what will you ask us to clear every time we report a problem with your game?


Nice burn! Lol

CCP Peligro - Team Security

Amarr Empire
#622 - 2013-04-19 18:02:14 UTC
Feanos wrote:
As someone who plays with 3rd party dev (Slowly) and helps to support EMDU for EMDR (Got it working on windows). I'm fairly saddened to see this happening. I use an extensive amount of market data pulled from cache files, dumped into my Spreadsheet of doom(tm), to deal with market orders, buying stuff from my corp membership etc. What I'm seeing here is a change in CCP's tone from "We want you all to play nice" to "We're going to make sure you're all playing nice in a manner that we approve as nice."

As someone who multiboxes 10+ accounts, and pays subs on them, I keep a close eye on the security team posts, as I'm a heavy isboxer user, though I avoid most of the features other than "Ooooh. Easy screen layout! Win!" Simply because I'd prefer not to run afoul of team security. I'm now concerned by the increasing tones of "We don't want possible cheating techniques to be available." Which is fine, but now you're starting to cut off more and more supplies of data, that 3rd party devs use, and are refusing to define what you consider to be cheating. Please keep in mind, that CCP continually pushes to have the player base sign up for more account (Power of two anyone?)

Also, the following wording is highly concerning to me: "2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played." According to this, we can't modify how the Game is played, but how do you want us to play the game? Are we to only play the game with one account at a time? Are we to play the game without any external tools to help us track jobs, manage accounts, track assets? By denying cache scraping officially, and in such a blunt manner, you've pretty much said, "Third party developers that explore out of our very, very limited API, are assisting users to play the game outside of how we want the game to be played" And that tone, is one that I really don't like to see. This game is unplayable for all intents and purposes without 3rd party developers, and I suspect, that's something that everyone here can agree with, on some level, simply because, the first day you join an alliance, and say "I'm new, where do I get started" You get slammed with 3rd party tools to make the game make more sense.



In regards to using isboxer... if you can't function with your 9 accounts without the program, you shouldn't be using it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Amarr Empire
#623 - 2013-04-19 18:06:50 UTC
What the hell is "Warp to 0 km hack", mentioned in ban reasons?
#624 - 2013-04-19 18:10:51 UTC
YohanPalych wrote:
What the hell is "Warp to 0 km hack", mentioned in ban reasons?


It's an old bit of code injection that changes autopilot to warp to 0 on gates instead of 12km. Besides the obvious advantages that gives you over people who don't use the hack, the code injection works by modifying the client, which is something that CCP unconditionally (and wisely) prohibits.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Of Sound Mind
#625 - 2013-04-19 18:15:26 UTC
Can we please come out and ban multiboxing software? Running multiple clients is fine (and these days works pretty well without ANY non-ccp software), but when you mirror keystrokes, mouse clicks, etc. is absolutely using 3rd party software for in-game advantage. Seeing a 60 man skiff fleet with characters name_1 to name_60 is, frankly, bullshit. Even as a user of multiple accounts, I want no part of this in my game.
Gallente Federation
#626 - 2013-04-19 18:23:55 UTC
YoYoMommy wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?


Yes


We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.



If this is not what you are looking for and is not cheating then why are you saying its illegal but not to worry? Makes more since to say that cache scraping for cheating is not legal rather than a blanket statement that everyone who uses it can get banned whether it's cheating or not, but if you are not cheating with it you might not get banned.

Henry VIII made life and death decisions on a case by case basis. Precedent established. Better hope CCP does not think like Henry VIII nor is as fickle.

Take a chill pill guys - the botters have to worry. Not me and my G15 (there is a quote somewhere that says G15s are okay). Not EvEMon users. Not EFT users.

It's gonna be okay.
#627 - 2013-04-19 18:35:42 UTC
Posting on 32nd page with EveMon running in background.
#628 - 2013-04-19 18:41:34 UTC
Evemon is running and reminding me to queue new skills. Always.

Also CCP, WTF?!
Garcia Arnst
#629 - 2013-04-19 18:43:15 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Oh really? What is this based on?
Modified clients place additional load on the servers, they are therefore detrimental to the ability of our legitimate players to enjoy EVE Online.


Not necessarily, it would all depend on what they do. I'm not defending modified clients here - just pointing out that your reasoning is off., back to the cache scraping issue:

Currently, you would ban:

1. People who cache scrape and bot.
2. People who bot.

You wouldn't (allegedly) ban:

3. People who cache scrape and don't bot.
4. People who don't cache scrape and (don't) bot.

So why even mention cache scraping - it just gives a mixed message. The reason for this entire flap is CCP Screegs statement a few weeks back that he 'considered cache scraping to be against the EULA', and now I'm guessing you have an internal debate within CCP and so are unable to give a clear message.
Second Empire.
#630 - 2013-04-19 19:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

I wouldn't be against cache scraping being illegal if the API actually got some love for once, but until it does cache scraping is the only viable method of getting some forms of data.
Synthetic Existence
#631 - 2013-04-19 19:12:05 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
"It doesn't impact gameplay negatively for the vast majority of players."
Oh really? What is this based on?
Modified clients place additional load on the servers, they are therefore detrimental to the ability of our legitimate players to enjoy EVE Online.


Modified clients can definitely cause undue load, but that depends entirely on what they do.

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Got Item?

Gallente Federation
#632 - 2013-04-19 19:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadowschild
Vibramycin wrote:
Can we please come out and ban multiboxing software? Running multiple clients is fine (and these days works pretty well without ANY non-ccp software), but when you mirror keystrokes, mouse clicks, etc. is absolutely using 3rd party software for in-game advantage. Seeing a 60 man skiff fleet with characters name_1 to name_60 is, frankly, bullshit. Even as a user of multiple accounts, I want no part of this in my game.


It's not your game there captain jack, you are just renting a fictonal, digital character & assets from CCP. Every MMO has bots & farmers why are you getting all burt hurt about this fact? Miner_1 to Miner_60 are paying customers, it's not your place to yap your mouth about what you know, it's about proof, which you have zero of.

As for modified clients, those idiots knew the risks.

CCP should ignore the playerbase, because your all a bunch of whiny cry babies. If the game doesn't allow you to see market orders outside of a region, why should out of game tools be granted that right? Same thing for Evemon, eveHQ etc. They need to shake up this game so not everything is within instant reach which itself facilitates macro/bot use. And I guarentee you at some point those ice belts your all so attached to are going to disappear along with the ability to earn a easy passive income of 10-12mil an hour.

I support CCP's initiative, it's time to take the training wheels off eve & let the forum crybabies learn to peddle on their own for once.
Of Sound Mind
#633 - 2013-04-19 19:47:30 UTC
Shadowschild wrote:
Vibramycin wrote:
Can we please come out and ban multiboxing software? Running multiple clients is fine (and these days works pretty well without ANY non-ccp software), but when you mirror keystrokes, mouse clicks, etc. is absolutely using 3rd party software for in-game advantage. Seeing a 60 man skiff fleet with characters name_1 to name_60 is, frankly, bullshit. Even as a user of multiple accounts, I want no part of this in my game.


It's not your game there captain jack, you are just renting a fictonal, digital character & assets from CCP. Every MMO has bots & farmers why are you getting all burt hurt about this fact? Miner_1 to Miner_60 are paying customers, it's not your place to yap your mouth about what you know, it's about proof, which you have zero of.

As for modified clients, those idiots knew the risks.

CCP should ignore the playerbase, because your all a bunch of whiny cry babies. If the game doesn't allow you to see market orders outside of a region, why should out of game tools be granted that right? Same thing for Evemon, eveHQ etc. They need to shake up this game so not everything is within instant reach which itself facilitates macro/bot use. And I guarentee you at some point those ice belts your all so attached to are going to disappear along with the ability to earn a easy passive income of 10-12mil an hour.

I support CCP's initiative, it's time to take the training wheels off eve & let the forum crybabies learn to peddle on their own for once.


I'm telling CCP what I want to see in the game I play, my opinion of their current policies. If they choose not to listen to me that's their business, and what I choose to do in response is mine. You need to chill the heck out, mang. "captain jack"? wow, seriously. CCP loves to talk about how EVE is ours, wouldn't be anything without players and player driven content, etc. I'm using their own terminology.

Proof of what? the guy warps 60 chars back to station within one tick, so I've got pretty good proof that he's ISBoxing (or equivalent), but that's not even the point. My post is about policy, and the situation described is allowed by their policy--it's interesting, but not pivotal, that my example is real and not hypothetical.

Then you go on to sperg about ice miners... I don't ice mine; you're not talking about me. I became aware of this sorta thing when I ran into a network of cloaky afk chars named similarly and found out he also does the ice mining schtick. And then I say that should be stopped...which is apparently also what you want.

damn dude, check your head.

Goonswarm Federation
#634 - 2013-04-19 20:01:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Aineko Macx wrote:
Alright, so cache scrapping for non-botting activities is ok.


No, it is a EULA violation. No question about this. It is stated very simply. They said, "We just wont do anything about (at this time)."

Quote:
What hasn't been clarified is if the use of market scanners, like the ones used by many popular market data sites are also still ok. i.e. if the use of the (legitimate, rate-limited) IGB JavaScript functions to open the market page ( CCPEVE.showMarketDetails() ) for items is in the clear.


If it scrapes the cache it violates the EULA. CCP may or may not ban your for it. And if they do, they may permanently ban you.

HTH, HAND. Ugh

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Most Valuable Player
#635 - 2013-04-19 20:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ordo Sienar
imho it is very unfair that people are not beeing banned for the use of a mulitboxing software that mulitplies intput (ie automation) but are not allowed to use simple autopilot macros or even simpler ones that just shuffle stuff into orcas for example.

Quote:
...a specific hack, “Autopilot to zero”, which is strictly against our EULA, as it is only possible with client modification.
i would like to point out that it is possible to do it without client modification, obviously not activating the ingame autopilot. still a bot tho..
#636 - 2013-04-19 20:16:10 UTC
Agent Trask wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:


Yep, thanks, we are working on that. I just edited the OP, and the dev blog will be updated shortly.


So ... I just opened up Eve-mon this AM to check my training queue. I am not even in game. I didn't even hear about this new pants on fire insanity by CCP until about 5 minutes ago.

Did I just get permabanned?



No, but you'll have to pay CCP Stillman a 10M playing permit, else you will be banned indeed Pirate
#637 - 2013-04-19 20:16:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Vibramycin wrote:
Proof of what? the guy warps 60 chars back to station within one tick, so I've got pretty good proof that he's ISBoxing (or equivalent), but that's not even the point. My post is about policy, and the situation described is allowed by their policy--it's interesting, but not pivotal, that my example is real and not hypothetical.


1) Put 60 characters on an identical skill plan;

2) Once they finish, put them all in identically fitted ships;

3) Put all those ships in a fleet;

4) Fleet warp them to station.

Just like that, you have 60 barges all going into warp on the same tick.

Now, if they all align within 1 tick without warping as soon as they are aligned, then you're looking at multiboxing software. If they all turn on their lasers within 1 tick, ditto. Your example could be accomplished with a bit of sensible preparation and fleet warp.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Caldari State
#638 - 2013-04-19 20:18:16 UTC
PR disaster...TBH, think twice (about phrasing, possibly reactions) before posting will make this much better to both CCP and players, even though you guys are fast to react to this
Of Sound Mind
#639 - 2013-04-19 20:18:24 UTC
Entity wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
"It doesn't impact gameplay negatively for the vast majority of players."
Oh really? What is this based on?
Modified clients place additional load on the servers, they are therefore detrimental to the ability of our legitimate players to enjoy EVE Online.


Modified clients can definitely cause undue load, but that depends entirely on what they do.


It also negatively impacts gameplay by making it artificially safe and fast using cheaty autopilot. Autopilot (the regular non-cheaty) used to warp you to zero, but CCP changed that intentionally and, IMHO for good reasons.
#640 - 2013-04-19 20:37:38 UTC
EvE Player Logic: 'CCP doesn't ban bots because they need the money! But CCP will ban us for using a non-harmful cache scraping program such as EVEmon over a rule that they've already said they won't enforce in non-exploiting cases just because!'

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