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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

First post First post
Author
Circle-Of-Two
#601 - 2013-04-19 15:25:40 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Hosedna wrote:
The wiki page states that cache scraping is forbidden. If I'm correct, popular services such as eve-central rely on it... Do you plan to release an API access to the market to make up for this ? Or many player developped application based on eve-central api will just ... die. And it's not going to be good for the market !

Cache scraping is against the EULA. We will enforce it at our discretion. That has always been the case. Don't expect anything to change. We merely wanted to clarify the matter. Smile



No. Enforce it all the time, or not at all. Otherwise you'll be seen as playing favorites by banning people your alliance doesn't like, while not banning those in your own alliance.

Don't have rules that can be enforced that way.



Oh and also don't make tools that people develop for free to make up for the fact that CCP can't program ****, bannable.




You guys really know how to alienate your customers, do you get off on it as it's a pretty much annual even.
Shadow Cartel
#602 - 2013-04-19 15:30:07 UTC
TLDR, CCP thinks they can make it against their sale contract to use information that is placed on MY cache on MY computer by them.

I have sour news for you jack, I own every piece of data on my computer and I can do with it as I please without violating IP rights.

PS...I did some cache scraping, it was fun.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

#603 - 2013-04-19 15:41:25 UTC
As a born luddite I am surprised 2350 pilots have been able to hack into the client to make autopilot 'jump to zero'. This kind of thing goes right over my head tbh. But It is worrying and suggests there are probably a lot of miner bots/macro bots out there stripping the belts? Would be interesting to have some figures on this.

Cache scraping sounds very uncomfortable. Lol

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Goonswarm Federation
#604 - 2013-04-19 15:44:55 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Cache scraping sounds very uncomfortable. Lol

It only hurts the first couple times.
Circle-Of-Two
#605 - 2013-04-19 15:45:14 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
If you read the EULA


NOBODY DOES!

We have do idea what we have agreed to, we just know we have to scroll to bottom and click accept; so we do.
Circle-Of-Two
#606 - 2013-04-19 15:49:49 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
In addition, we also may consider eliminating the cache to eliminate this practice and for performance reasons.


But then what will you ask us to clear every time we report a problem with your game?
#607 - 2013-04-19 15:51:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Tiberius Murderhorne wrote:
most good gaming keyboards on the market have programmable hot keys??

is your software looking for these too?? I have a G19 and a G700 mouse, I dont use macros but i do have keyboard keys mapped to mouse buttons, am I now breaking the EULA?


If you are breaking the EULA by using those products, then so is Team Security: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2899462#post2899462

The intent of the policy has been clear (to me, at least) since page 1. I'm not really sure what the fuss is about. They're not going to go on a wild banning spree and take out people using gaming keyboards, assistance software, EVEMon and EVE Central. They have a tight focus:

CCP Stillman wrote:
Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Synthetic Existence
#608 - 2013-04-19 15:56:36 UTC
Muul Udonii wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
In addition, we also may consider eliminating the cache to eliminate this practice and for performance reasons.


But then what will you ask us to clear every time we report a problem with your game?


I lolled Lol

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?

The Bastard Cartel
#609 - 2013-04-19 15:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
While I take some consolation that CCP won't simply ban people using common cache scraping software like EveMon, you really need to get your message clearer. As a veteran player, it bothers me when I'm told that what I'm doing is officially "against the rules" and potentially warrants a permanent ban. I have years of time and resources invested in this game, and I'd hate to lose them all on a technicality.

To be quite frank, I do not use any "questionable" software. The stuff I use: Eft, Pyfa, EveMon, etc, are well known to CCP, and I don't fear losing my account because I regularly utilize these software. However, I find CCP's stance unacceptable, mainly because of the extent of your punishment options. To use an analogy:

Imagine a road with a 35 mph speed limit. Everyone might drive 45 mph on it, and the police may generally only ticket people traveling at 50+ mph, but on a bad day, any police officer can pull you over and ticket you anytime you exceed the 35 mph speed limit. When the ticket is a 30 day suspension of, or potentially even a permanent suspension of your driver's licence, an officer having a bad day can really **** up your life!!! And let's be frank, Screeg's isn't known for his calm demeanor (at least not on the forums)!

I'm ok with you saying "using EveMon is technically a EULA violation" if you follow it up with a caveat that should you chose to enforce this "minor violation that you don't plan to enforce", you would only do so with a maximum penalty of a 1-day or 3-day ban. When you say, technically it's a violation that we don't plan to enforce, but should we enforce it, we might permanently ban your account you've invested years into... well frankly, that's NOT ACCEPTABLE!!

FIX YOUR MESSAGE!!!!!
Goonswarm Federation
#610 - 2013-04-19 15:59:50 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Mechaet wrote:

The cache scraping ban was unexpected, though. How are eve-central et al going to get their market data? I've configured my EveMon to not send in the market data now (and I assume any wise player will do the same). It kind of sucks that clarifications like these result in viable, useful third-party sites finding themselves in a position of being rules-lawyered out of being viable, especially after all those folks put in such massive effort to make something all of us players can use.

You've said that you're trying to lobby for getting Eve marketeers a feed they can use to get market data; did you consider putting a halt to cache scraping bans until you knew the outcome of that effort, or is it an instance where something bad out there is doing cache scraping (or using cache scraping to control something) and you need to act on it more immediately?

I want to clarify that the cache scraping ban isn't new. If you read the EULA, this isn't a new thing. It has never been allowed by the EULA.

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.


Don't have plans ...... and then you mention ...... not at the top of our to-do list.
Wait ....this means you do have plans for it !!!!.

Why CCP ?
Why do you drop this "delayed" Ban bomb on all 3rd party dev's , They make this game so much more fun.

Make a white list or a statement or something...... , but please clear up this issue . Thanks
Goonswarm Federation
#611 - 2013-04-19 16:00:17 UTC
Seriously, to rely on the good judgement of humans is to court failure.
Circle-Of-Two
#612 - 2013-04-19 16:02:00 UTC
Salpun wrote:
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :))

Sorry for quoting myself, but since the heated debate on cache scraping I figure it'd be overlooked. :)

He answered that on the second page. He uses one so you are safe Twisted



Actually, that doesn't mean anything. He said he was using one to post to the forums, he didn't even hint that he even plays eve, let alone that he uses a G15 while playing eve.
CODE.
#613 - 2013-04-19 16:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Agent Trask
CCP Peligro wrote:


Yep, thanks, we are working on that. I just edited the OP, and the dev blog will be updated shortly.


So ... I just opened up Eve-mon this AM to check my training queue. I am not even in game. I didn't even hear about this new pants on fire insanity by CCP until about 5 minutes ago.

Did I just get permabanned?

Join the New Order, buy your permit today, and follow the code.

www.minerbumping.com

Quantum Forge
#614 - 2013-04-19 16:26:48 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Quote:
We don't like cache scraping. It's inelegant. It treads uncomfortably close to the prohibition on reverse assembling the client. The cache is intended for the client's use and fear there may come a point where information in the cache which isn't presented to the user (via the client) can be used to gain advantages we didn't intend. Therefore we (and the lawyers) put wording in the EULA prohibiting cache scraping.

That said, at the moment we aren't going to punish users for scraping the cache. We recognize that there are some third party tools that make good use of the cache, and have no intention of punishing users of those third party tools. However we will continue to go after users which engage in other EULA-breaking activities, such as botting. Cache scraping activities by themselves will not be a reason for us to take action.

I think you just stated exactly what CCP is trying to get at, in much clearer, simpler, and more elegant terms than CCP Stillman's rather circuitous and aggressive attempt at "clarification" did. Now all we need is someone very high up (CCP Hilmar, Seagull, or Ripley, maybe?) to say "Yes, this, now can we please get back to banning bots?"
#615 - 2013-04-19 16:55:00 UTC
To make it clear:

Cache Scraping exists because CCP don't wanted to deliver the information and is now going for our heads. Cache Scraping is a bad workaround from something that was already broken before. Instead of delivering the information by a local api we have to readout the cache

It's time to think different.
Federation Uprising
#616 - 2013-04-19 16:59:12 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Thank you for all your comments and concerns regarding cache scraping, we are listening and we truly appreciate your feedback.

After consulting with CCP Legal and Team Security, we are not prepared to amend the EULA at this time to address your concerns. However, your comments are good ones, and we will consider incorporating them with the next scheduled update to the EULA (expected this fall, 2013).

In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.



So what do you suggest we do? Should we stop playing the game and let our subscriptions lapse until you get your head out of your butts? I've used Evemon since 4/15 and apparently I am in violation of the EULA can be perma-banned any time you feel like it.

Another question, do the combat analyzers that read log files to shed light on fights also violate the EULA? I haven't used one of those in about 2 weeks, so if I never do that again I should be ok. Also, what if I open those text files and "reverse engineer" them with my brain by reading it? Is that a EULA violation too?

If this is the path you want to go down, just stop logging everything. Seriously, you are giving us text files with information and then telling us that merely opening them and reading is a EULA violation and can result in a ban.

.

#617 - 2013-04-19 17:11:24 UTC
Alright, so cache scrapping for non-botting activities is ok.

What hasn't been clarified is if the use of market scanners, like the ones used by many popular market data sites are also still ok. i.e. if the use of the (legitimate, rate-limited) IGB JavaScript functions to open the market page ( CCPEVE.showMarketDetails() ) for items is in the clear.

If not, CCP should remove the function altogether. And if scanning at a rate of 3 seconds per item is still considered bad, then further rate limit the function.
C C P Alliance
#618 - 2013-04-19 17:38:21 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
Ereilian wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ereilian wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:



Ha! I wish... On a more serious note, this operation is around 2 months in the making, and the total number of accounts involved in this one (2350) is a small fraction of the number of accounts we have banned in the past year.

We are presenting a bunch of numbers and graphs at fanfest, this will be recorded. I'll put them up in a dev blog afterwards as well.


2 months for 0.005% of the player base ... time well spent?

Comparing accounts banned to the amount of the active subscriptions is kind of useless, don't you think?


With the amount of backslapping going on, its a pretty fair assesment of the time invested compared to the results. Especially when the resources used by Team Security could be redeployed into making the game better.


I did not say anything about the time invested at all. I said that this particular operation started as an idea two months ago, and was finished today. You are of course free to make assumptions.

As for Team Security, we make the game better by dealing with cheaters and botters. This is actually my main concern; the general well being of the game, and the ability for the players to enjoy our product. Nobody wants to play a game where cheating is rampant.



Warp to 0 AP is not a game breaking hack / exploit.
It doesn't impact gameplay negatively for the vast majority of players. With the exception of suiciders and gate camps, and clearly improves gameplay for over 2000 users.
I realise at this point I sound like I'm in favour of it, and possibly I am, however my personal stance is irrelevant.

Ratting bots, mission running bots, courier bots, market bots and mining bots....these things adversely impact my game play.

Someone getting 30 jumps 15 minutes quicker I don't give a ****.


"It doesn't impact gameplay negatively for the vast majority of players."
Oh really? What is this based on?
Modified clients place additional load on the servers, they are therefore detrimental to the ability of our legitimate players to enjoy EVE Online.

CCP Peligro - Team Security

Amarr Empire
#619 - 2013-04-19 17:48:59 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
I'm pretty sure all the members of the security team are looking forward to telling Hilmar that they have enforced the EULA and perma-banned 400k accounts for using Evemon. Big smile


Don't worry, it's ok.

They are only threatening them all with bans, it's absolutely fine!!


CCP shall remember that players too can threaten, remember walk in station and the mass unsub that followed? nobody want's to go throught that again right?



Devs and Marketing are 2 separate departments. Subscriptions fall under marketing's protocols.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

C C P Alliance
#620 - 2013-04-19 17:56:26 UTC
Muul Udonii wrote:
Salpun wrote:
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :))

Sorry for quoting myself, but since the heated debate on cache scraping I figure it'd be overlooked. :)

He answered that on the second page. He uses one so you are safe Twisted



Actually, that doesn't mean anything. He said he was using one to post to the forums, he didn't even hint that he even plays eve, let alone that he uses a G15 while playing eve.


CCP is not concerned with what gaming peripheral our players use at all. If you program it to achieve automation of game play, it is another story - and we will take action against that in accordance with our policies on the matter.

Side note, I have played EVE for over 7 years!

CCP Peligro - Team Security

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