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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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Neo-Bushido Movement
#101 - 2013-04-18 15:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaeda Maxwell
Just for the record, CCP is perfectly within their right to ban you even if you don't violate the EULA.

Of course they're extremely unlikely to do so. But they don't actually need a cause at all, New Eden is their universe they can do with it as they please, which includes locking out our characters with no reason given if the mood ever strikes them.
#102 - 2013-04-18 15:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Marc Callan wrote:
There are parallels in real life, I guess. Certain interstate highways in the United States have posted speed limits, high and low (e.g. Speed Limit 55, Minimum 40). Traffic police won't enforce it against all drivers under normal circumstances, though, but will use a rule of thumb based on the ordinary flow of traffic - IE: if there's a traffic jam and everyone's reduced to 5 miles an hour, technically everyone's breaking the minimum speed limit, but it's impractical to sanction everyone caught in the traffic jam. So the cops use their discretion; they'll ticket someone going 15 in the passing lane during normal traffic, or 90 when the flow is going 65, but they'll focus on the dangerous ones and the outliers.
I'd throw in a much more precise example, which is the Swedish jaywalking laws.

In Sweden, it is illegal to walk against a red light. In Sweden, you will never be punished for walking against a red light, for the simple reason that no punishment exists for this offence. No fines, no marks in the protocol, no wrist-slaps — nothing. It's not that sanctioning people is impractical — it's downright impossible. In and of itself, the crime of jaywalking cannot be enforced because doing so serves no purpose. However, if you do walk against red and cars have to swerve out of the way to avoid you, you are the one who has broken the law and caused any (near)accidents — any insurance disputes will hinge on the simple fact that you broke the law.

In short, rules are something completely separate from enforcement.

Same goes here: the rule is “no cache scraping”. The enforcement is “if you cache scrape to cheat, then we're going to stomp your colon; if not, who cares.” The rule is simply wide enough that there is no wiggle-room to get out of it, should you be caught cheating through the use of some kind of cache-scraping mechanism that does not interact with the game in any other way.
Of Sound Mind
#103 - 2013-04-18 15:34:08 UTC
June Ting wrote:
One clarification question: is tailing chat logfiles (e.g. what eve-live.com does) considered acceptable?

Still awaiting confirmation that chatlog scraping tools are permitted.

I fight for the freedom of my people.

The 20 Minuters
#104 - 2013-04-18 15:34:11 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Lallante wrote:

Here's a summary:
1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught;
2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.


This is spot on, thank you.


No you're still missing the point.

2 DOESN'T MATTER

What matters is what I agreed to when I signed up for the game - which says what is and isn't against the EULA. There's also a paragraph on a wiki that clearly states a particular action is against the EULA.

Posts by devs on the forums stating what currently is being enforced, are certainly interesting, but do not change the agreement I agreed to.
Destination SkillQueue
#105 - 2013-04-18 15:34:20 UTC
ITT exceptionally thick people and/or botting/RMT scum.
Synthetic Existence
#106 - 2013-04-18 15:36:25 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:

Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game,


Cars can be used to run over people. I don't see the government issuing blanket threats to car drivers.

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?

#107 - 2013-04-18 15:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Claire Raynor
Thanks for this Dev Blog. I am happy that my Synergy is OK for me to use now.

I hope the third party markets tools don't suffer too badly from this statement of the EULA. I really appreciate your more open and sympathetic communication of your design intent here. I know now, or feel more comfortable now, that your process is not arbitary and thus not prone to false positives. I know that you are not on a power trip, or just "Doing your job" and don't care, BUT are passionate and care for us gamers, and that it's your care for the gamers that gives you motivation to act against the cheaters.

You've stated that using our tools isn't going to get us banned. And that this stuff will only result in a ban if it is percieved to be used to harm the game in some way. I infer that "harm" in most instances would be non-human interaction and automation. You also went as far as to state that "running multiple clients at the same time is not in violation of our EULA in and of itself unless it involves trial accounts". That quoted statement fixed all the confusion from the first scary post. And I beleive that your more freindly tone, (less officious), fixes or should fix concerns over this one.

Thanks for this!
Synthetic Existence
#108 - 2013-04-18 15:38:38 UTC
Also

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?

Caldari State
#109 - 2013-04-18 15:39:54 UTC
I want to take the extraordinary and unprecedented step of making a serious, non-snide, non-troll comment.

It's good to see CCP taking steps to stop botters and client modifications, and it's critical that they do. Cheating really hoses a game experience. Why invest any effort into the game if, as CCP seems to have done in the past, certain groups can amass wealth / power through automated scripts, etc? People want to play other people... that's why people play online at all. Would you want to play chess against someone who was getting move advice from IBM's deep blue? Nobody wants to play the long sov game if the table is being tilted by CCP. In like kind, nobody will want to play DUST if people are glitching, superjumping, or using "standby" network exploits. Bring down the ban hammer. Hard. That's all I have to say.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Caldari State
#110 - 2013-04-18 15:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
CCP Stillman wrote:
Hosedna wrote:
The wiki page states that cache scraping is forbidden. If I'm correct, popular services such as eve-central rely on it... Do you plan to release an API access to the market to make up for this ? Or many player developped application based on eve-central api will just ... die. And it's not going to be good for the market !

Cache scraping is against the EULA. We will enforce it at our discretion. That has always been the case. Don't expect anything to change. We merely wanted to clarify the matter. Smile


Look, you can't go and say that stuff we routinely do is against the EULA and that we should live in constant fear of getting at least a 30 day ban and at worse a permanent ban on our accounts just because at this time you chose not to enforce a particular thing. If you want to "clarify" anything, then clarify this: Should players have any fear of cache scraping or not? Should they have any fear of using EveMon or not? Eve-market or not? etc. Be clear on that or retract all this posturing and then figure out what you really want to say before you come back to us!

So is ISBOXER OK or not? And don't give us any unclear answer like: No, but we will enforce at our discretion.

Are you actually scanning our system processes beyond the Eve client? Are you able to read memory outside of the Eve client? And don't give us any BS about not being able to answer due to concerns about revealing your security strategies, because these are our computers, not yours, and our data belongs to us and not to you. We all have lots of "data" that we don't want just anyone snooping around and "looking" at. And by data, I don't just mean pictures and by looking I don't just mean viewing, but also scanning. Are you guys looking outside of the Eve process? We have a right to get a "clarified" answer on this one.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

#111 - 2013-04-18 15:41:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:

In short, rules are something completely separate from enforcement.

Same goes here: the rule is “no cache scraping”. The enforcement is “if you cache scrape to cheat, then we're going to stomp your colon; if not, who cares.” The rule is simply wide enough that there is no wiggle-room to get out of it, should you be caught cheating through the use of some kind of cache-scraping mechanism that does not interact with the game in any other way.


This. Yep. No wonder you have 13K+ likes :)
C C P Alliance
#112 - 2013-04-18 15:43:19 UTC
Entity wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:

Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game,


Cars can be used to run over people. I don't see the government issuing blanket threats to car drivers.


Hi Entity! There are no blanket threats here, I'm sorry you see it that way.

We've stated our intent numerous times, and I'll do it again; the policies are in place to protect the well being of the game. We'll use these policies to get rid of cheaters, and I'm sure you don't want them around any more than we do.

CCP Peligro - Team Security

Caldari State
#113 - 2013-04-18 15:43:38 UTC
People in here are very naive, with a few exceptions.

GM's statement "yeah its illegal, but we wont enforce it" is worth jack ****. They can easily come out the next day and switch it to "oh yeah it was always illegal, here's your ban"

Seems clear that most of you never dealt with contracts and how it will be used against you in the future.

And GMs have a long tradition of overturning each others "decisions", so anything GM says shouldn't be interpreted as truth.

Allways follow the EULA, thats the only document that has any weight. I'm turning off my EVEMON market scraper, and strongly suggest you do the same, if you have any sense.
#114 - 2013-04-18 15:43:38 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?


Yes


We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.


Not that I use any of these tools. I actually prefer to play the game.

But isn't this eerily familiar to what was said about ISBoxer a while back?

This is the problem with selective enforcement.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

#115 - 2013-04-18 15:44:20 UTC
Cal Stantson wrote:

Then it shouldn't be cache scraping that's considered illegal, it should be the things people are doing with it to cheat that's considered illegal.


Its not guns that kill people nor the finger that pulls the guns trigger that kills people... its the bullet that goes thru peoples heads that kills people Shocked
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Vae. Victis.
#116 - 2013-04-18 15:44:27 UTC
Fade Toblack wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
Lallante wrote:

Here's a summary:
1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught;
2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.


This is spot on, thank you.


No you're still missing the point.

2 DOESN'T MATTER

What matters is what I agreed to when I signed up for the game - which says what is and isn't against the EULA. There's also a paragraph on a wiki that clearly states a particular action is against the EULA.

Posts by devs on the forums stating what currently is being enforced, are certainly interesting, but do not change the agreement I agreed to.

There were questions as to how this was to be enforced.
We were given a Dev blog specifically aimed at how enforcement would be handled.

If, even though you have been specifically told it's okay, you choose to not use EvEMon that's fine. Nobody cares.
But the fact remains you have been specifically told the overriding goal of EULA and TOS enforcement is to use what is specified in those documents is to catch botters, RMT, and other specifically cheat oriented activities... and NOT to go after folks using common handy activities.

It really doesn't matter what was discussed in the past, this is your official word on the subject at this time.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

#117 - 2013-04-18 15:45:06 UTC
Minimax Zed wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:


Our EULA is what it is. But if we were to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA, that makes the EULA worthless. Misleading the player base about what the EULA entails is dishonest. We'd much rather explain what the EULA states and how it applies to different things.


CCP Stillman, I understand that you don't want to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA.

But why not have a discussion with CCP Legal to change the EULA to address something that the vast majority of the playerbase does? If it won't be enforced anyway, why have it in the EULA at all?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but saying "it is what it is" is a cop-out, IMO.
Do you have a suggestion for an exception clause they can add to the EULA that will allow nice people to do what they want but will prevent bad people from exploiting the new loophole?
RvB - BLUE Republic
#118 - 2013-04-18 15:45:24 UTC
Fade Toblack wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
Lallante wrote:

Here's a summary:
1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught;
2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.


This is spot on, thank you.


No you're still missing the point.

2 DOESN'T MATTER

What matters is what I agreed to when I signed up for the game - which says what is and isn't against the EULA. There's also a paragraph on a wiki that clearly states a particular action is against the EULA.

Posts by devs on the forums stating what currently is being enforced, are certainly interesting, but do not change the agreement I agreed to.


As an actual, RL lawyer I'm going to have to break it to you that this is bollocks. In practice CCP can ban you for no reason at all and you have no legal redress whatsoever
#119 - 2013-04-18 15:46:14 UTC
Just out of curiosity:

I live in a country where the EULA has no legal binding if not presented legally correct aka during establishing a contract with the seller of the product.

This means any EULA presented during and installation process or during using the software after it was already bought is not binding and legally void.

I am however sure that CCP has the right to impose rules and regulatory to their game. But they should do so in a legal way.

Btw. the counry i am speaking of is Germany, the land of legally void EULAs. :)
Vae. Victis.
#120 - 2013-04-18 15:46:44 UTC
Esmilis99 wrote:
People in here are very naive, with a few exceptions.

GM's statement "yeah its illegal, but we wont enforce it" is worth jack ****. They can easily come out the next day and switch it to "oh yeah it was always illegal, here's your ban"

Seems clear that most of you never dealt with contracts and how it will be used against you in the future.

And GMs have a long tradition of overturning each others "decisions", so anything GM says shouldn't be interpreted as truth.

Allways follow the EULA, thats the only document that has any weight. I'm turning off my EVEMON market scraper, and strongly suggest you do the same, if you have any sense.

More often it's a history of EvE players interpretting GH statements any way they wish to further their own agenda... or for simple trolling purposes. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

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