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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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RvB - BLUE Republic
#81 - 2013-04-18 15:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
So many people clueless as to how EULAs work ITT.

Here's a summary:
1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught;
2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.

This is the only important distinction, not whether e.g. Cache scraping is "technically" against the EULA or not. Will you get banned for using a publicly distributed and otherwise legitimate helper program that cache scrapes? The answer is clearly no. Its not in CCPs interest to start stealthily banning such people. They have announced clearly that its not allowed (and its likely, they have also quietly contacted the developers of those aps and asked them to stop including it as functionality) but its unlikely they will be taking any action against otherwise innocent/clueless players.

So stop getting your panties into a bunch over whether X is "technically" against the EULA and ask yourself "is this bad for Eve? Is it cheating? Is it unfair or broken? Does it evade an ingame limitation DELIBERATELY put there by CCP? ". If the answer to any of those is yes, then stop doing it. If not, then chill the **** out.
Greater D.U.S.K. Coalition
#82 - 2013-04-18 15:17:40 UTC
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :))

Sorry for quoting myself, but since the heated debate on cache scraping I figure it'd be overlooked. :)

He answered that on the second page. He uses one so you are safe Twisted

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

A Band Apart.
#83 - 2013-04-18 15:19:35 UTC
There are parallels in real life, I guess. Certain interstate highways in the United States have posted speed limits, high and low (e.g. Speed Limit 55, Minimum 40). Traffic police won't enforce it against all drivers under normal circumstances, though, but will use a rule of thumb based on the ordinary flow of traffic - IE: if there's a traffic jam and everyone's reduced to 5 miles an hour, technically everyone's breaking the minimum speed limit, but it's impractical to sanction everyone caught in the traffic jam. So the cops use their discretion; they'll ticket someone going 15 in the passing lane during normal traffic, or 90 when the flow is going 65, but they'll focus on the dangerous ones and the outliers.

It's a bit worrisome that CCP is stating that they're simply going to use their discretion to overlook the violations caused by the EVEmon market scraper, rather than providing an EULA-compliant alternative and allowing worried people to get back within the bounds of the agreement, but that's the way it works in the real world as well, I suppose...

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

#84 - 2013-04-18 15:20:49 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Quote:
All of those are illegal by the EULA, as they give you an advantage over other players, and allow you to gain ISK quicker than them.


So can a well designed spreadsheet. Is that illegal too?

See? Vague.


If the spreadsheet gets it's data through cache scraping then yes.

If the data is manually inserted by the user then no.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#85 - 2013-04-18 15:21:04 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:


Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.


Use some common sense FFS.
#86 - 2013-04-18 15:21:19 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Let me reiterate again. The EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This clarification is a response to the request of countless people who read a post by CCP Sreegs that claimed that it was technically against the EULA. This caused a lot of confusion, and we are here to clarify what he meant. Because he was right. Here's the post.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. The logical conclusion, then, seems to be that all those who have developed cache reading technologies over the years should cease doing so, because while the letter of the EULA has not changed, the interpretation of that EULA has, and CCP are now threatening to ban those who read the game's cache files?
C C P Alliance
#87 - 2013-04-18 15:21:30 UTC
Muscaat wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Muscaat wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:

Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.

Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it?

This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but.

Only if you are incredibly obtuse.


For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't".

That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me.

I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant.

And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have.

It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can.


I absolutely understand your frustration. This was not intended as a threat in any way.

Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game, such as for example market bots. The policy is in place to protect the game and our players ability to enjoy the game.

A blanket yes or no is not possible in this case. With our statement of intent, I sincerely hope that our legitimate players don't worry about catching the ban hammer for something we genuinely aren't concerned about.





CCP Peligro - Team Security

WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#88 - 2013-04-18 15:22:12 UTC
Salpun wrote:
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :))

Sorry for quoting myself, but since the heated debate on cache scraping I figure it'd be overlooked. :)

He answered that on the second page. He uses one so you are safe Twisted

I saw that, too. I overlooked the reply because he actually replied to someone who quoted me. ;) All good.

I've got no intentions of turning my keyboard into a bot. (why'd I pay a monthly fee just for my keyboard to have all the fun. ;))
#89 - 2013-04-18 15:22:12 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?


Yes


We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not CURRENTLY looking for EVEMON users WHO ARE BREAKING THE EULA AND COULD BE PUNISHED AT OUR DISCRETION. Basically, please don't worry.


FIXED Blink
Was there a granfathering of this warp to 0 ban? Or was it everyone that has used it in the past 1 year (or just last week? )

So if everyone now stops using EveMON & other cache scrappers will they escape the wrath of PERMAban or are they still subject to it they ever used it ex post facto this warning?

An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-04-18 15:22:18 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:


Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.


Use some common sense FFS.


Humor me and answer the questions.
C C P Alliance
#91 - 2013-04-18 15:22:57 UTC
Lallante wrote:

Here's a summary:
1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught;
2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.


This is spot on, thank you.

CCP Peligro - Team Security

Of Sound Mind
#92 - 2013-04-18 15:23:17 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:


Our EULA is what it is. But if we were to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA, that makes the EULA worthless. Misleading the player base about what the EULA entails is dishonest. We'd much rather explain what the EULA states and how it applies to different things.


CCP Stillman, I understand that you don't want to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA.

But why not have a discussion with CCP Legal to change the EULA to address something that the vast majority of the playerbase does? If it won't be enforced anyway, why have it in the EULA at all?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but saying "it is what it is" is a cop-out, IMO.
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2013-04-18 15:24:21 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
It's a bit worrisome that CCP is stating that they're simply going to use their discretion to overlook the violations caused by the EVEmon market scraper, rather than providing an EULA-compliant alternative and allowing worried people to get back within the bounds of the agreement, but that's the way it works in the real world as well, I suppose...

Stillman is lobbying for a EULA-compliant method as well so we won't have anything to worry about.

Thankfully EveMon does no interaction with the client (aside from scraping market data to send to a third-party distributor) so it can't be mistaken for botting, so I'm much more at ease with my fate in this game.
The 20 Minuters
#94 - 2013-04-18 15:25:20 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:

But you have to remember that enforcement is an entirely different beast. I know what Team Security is tasked with, as do all of you because we discuss it and details about it on a regular basis. We focus on botting and RMT, and now also client modification used by known bots.


That may be, but your statements on the forum are what's wrong.

If the EULA says that cache-scraping is illegal because it's reverse engineering.

Then you should be stating as fact, that EveMon's cache scraping feature is against the EULA.

Whether or not you're currently enforcing that is not a consideration. You SHOULD NOT be posting statements on the forum that imply that violating the EULA in this particular way is actually OK.

Now I realise that saying EveMon breaks the rules is a PR problem. But what you should be doing is offering an amnesty for some *future* date that until that date you will offer an amnesty to EveMon users.
#95 - 2013-04-18 15:25:25 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:


Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.


Use some common sense FFS.


lol this is EVE for FFS common sense is about as common as an honest man JUST ASK DIOGENESAttention
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
No Handlebars.
#96 - 2013-04-18 15:26:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cal Stantson
CCP Peligro wrote:
Muscaat wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Muscaat wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:

Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.

Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it?

This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but.

Only if you are incredibly obtuse.


For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't".

That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me.

I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant.

And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have.

It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can.


I absolutely understand your frustration. This was not intended as a threat in any way.

Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game, such as for example market bots. The policy is in place to protect the game and our players ability to enjoy the game.

A blanket yes or no is not possible in this case. With our statement of intent, I sincerely hope that our legitimate players don't worry about catching the ban hammer for something we genuinely aren't concerned about.







Then it shouldn't be cache scraping that's considered illegal, it should be the things people are doing with it to cheat that's considered illegal.
#97 - 2013-04-18 15:27:19 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?


Absolutely, yes.

Half the player population are now breaking the EULA. Nice job CCP.

This really is pathetic. How can you pop up and say half the player base are breaking the EULA and we will 'enforce at our discretion'? Please explain.

Our EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This is the EULA we've always had. We have not outlawed cache scraping as of today. It has always been against our EULA. It's at our discretion as to enforcing it.

Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.


so can you explain to us why you don't do anything against this: http://i.imgur.com/kT9qs.jpg since it IS macro ?

and it leads to kills: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17365238
The 20 Minuters
#98 - 2013-04-18 15:27:26 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

So can a well designed spreadsheet. Is that illegal too?

See? Vague.


No because your spreadsheet is entirely out of the scope of what the EULA can cover.
#99 - 2013-04-18 15:28:24 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:


I absolutely understand your frustration. This was not intended as a threat in any way.

Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game, such as for example market bots. The policy is in place to protect the game and our players ability to enjoy the game.

A blanket yes or no is not possible in this case. With our statement of intent, I sincerely hope that our legitimate players don't worry about catching the ban hammer for something we genuinely aren't concerned about.



Thanks for the reply. (Two dev replies on the same day - I feel privileged! Smile)
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2013-04-18 15:29:10 UTC
Cal Stantson wrote:

Then it shouldn't be cache scraping that's considered illegal, it should be the things people are doing with it to cheat that's considered illegal.

And what he's saying is that the enforcement is following this line.

They're not out to get half the playerbase swept up in a ban; bad for business and all that. I really believe we have nothing to worry about on this front.
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