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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

First post First post
Author
Of Sound Mind
#61 - 2013-04-18 15:05:10 UTC
Two step wrote:
As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices).


This.

Also, I'm disappointed in CCP Stillman's lack of understanding of the cognitive dissonance induced in people that love this game enough to never want to violate the EULA.

Vague promises about "it won't be enforced" aren't really reassuring.
Vae. Victis.
#62 - 2013-04-18 15:05:49 UTC
Muscaat wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:

Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.

Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it?

This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but.

Only if you are incredibly obtuse.

Jesus, it's like a bunch of little kids nitpicking their parents...

"but you said I can have desert"
"I said you could have desert if you didin't get in trouble at school"
"but you said I can have desert".

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Amarr Empire
#63 - 2013-04-18 15:06:36 UTC
Two step wrote:
As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices).

Pretty much the identical concern I initially had. <3 My CSM
HYDRA RELOADED
#64 - 2013-04-18 15:08:08 UTC
I get why the EULA is fuzzy, but i still don't know whats allowed with ISBoxer and what is not.

Probably needs a case by case ruling when some people exaggerate, but an example would still be something i like to see.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Caldari State
#65 - 2013-04-18 15:09:05 UTC
ok well im disabling eve mon's uploader dont want to get banned
#66 - 2013-04-18 15:09:12 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:


Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.


The answer to all your questions is yes, it has always been yes. (presuming you mean illegal as in against the EULA)

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Gallente Federation
#67 - 2013-04-18 15:09:52 UTC
You've mentioned EVEMON by name, now how about ISBOXER? Does using it breach EULA/ToS through keystroke broadcasting, mouse click broacasting, dll injection? Are players allowed to control multiple accounts from one user interface using broadcasts?
Vae. Victis.
#68 - 2013-04-18 15:10:10 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
I get why the EULA is fuzzy, but i still don't know whats allowed with ISBoxer and what is not.

Probably needs a case by case ruling when some people exaggerate, but an example would still be something i like to see.

I think they were pretty clear.

If you only use ISBoxer to run multiple clients, nobody cares.

If you use it's other capabilities (parts of it can be used in a manner that is obviously a cheat) then they have reserved the right to ban you.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

The 20 Minuters
#69 - 2013-04-18 15:10:31 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

If you are using cache scraping purely for informational or utility purposes (meaning not to bot or otherwise cheat) then they excercise their right to NOT bust you for it.


That would be great, but we were previously told in forum posts, that we wouldn't be busted because it wasn't against the EULA.

We're now being told that it's against the EULA and (in a forum post) we won't be busted. Oh also that forum posts by devs should be disregarded as official policy, in favour of what's in the EULA.

So next logical step is...

I'm going to stop cache-scraping as soon as I can disable the feature in EveMon. Unfortunately I've already been breaking the EULA - and the amnesty expired 3 days before the announcement.

Also this is arguably the most important point of today's announcement - but isn't in the dev blog - it's only on the linked Wiki page.
#70 - 2013-04-18 15:11:04 UTC
TIL a EULA can be retroactive.

I shoot stuff for a living, are you made of stuff?

C C P Alliance
#71 - 2013-04-18 15:12:07 UTC
Minimax Zed wrote:
Two step wrote:
As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices).


This.

Also, I'm disappointed in CCP Stillman's lack of understanding of the cognitive dissonance induced in people that love this game enough to never want to violate the EULA.

Vague promises about "it won't be enforced" aren't really reassuring.

I'm sorry that this is how it's perceived. However the intent of clarifying this is to address in all honesty what our EULA says about specific items.

Our EULA is what it is. But if we were to make arbitrary exceptions to the EULA, that makes the EULA worthless. Misleading the player base about what the EULA entails is dishonest. We'd much rather explain what the EULA states and how it applies to different things.

But you have to remember that enforcement is an entirely different beast. I know what Team Security is tasked with, as do all of you because we discuss it and details about it on a regular basis. We focus on botting and RMT, and now also client modification used by known bots.

Just a random dude in Team Security.

#72 - 2013-04-18 15:12:08 UTC
Murder is illegal. Speeding is illegal.

CCP will bust you for murder. CCP will bust you for speeding while commiting murder.

If you're speeding, but on your way to the Dentist's office, it may or may not be enforced.

And without specifically saying it is "OK", CCP is trying to intimate that they are not looking for people speeding on their way to Walmart.

Clear as mud?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

#73 - 2013-04-18 15:12:35 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Muscaat wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:

Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.

Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it?

This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but.

Only if you are incredibly obtuse.


For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't".

That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me.

I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant.

And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have.

It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can.
C C P Alliance
#74 - 2013-04-18 15:12:40 UTC
Big Jim Slade wrote:
What about all those Overview modifications by changing the overviews .xml file? Are you also checking modified .xml files to see if players are making your game more user friendly and ban them?


Nope, no worries on that one. We are after the hackers, botters and the RMTers.

CCP Peligro - Team Security

Caldari State
#75 - 2013-04-18 15:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:


Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.


The answer to all your questions is yes, it has always been yes. (presuming you mean illegal as in against the EULA)


Perhaps you think the EULA is clear. To most people the EULA has been vague enough for them to continue with these activities in the hope that they were in a 'grey area'.

This is the first time it has been spelt out, and action threatened.

Muscaat spells it out nicely above.
The 20 Minuters
#76 - 2013-04-18 15:13:06 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.


All of those are illegal by the EULA, as they give you an advantage over other players, and allow you to gain ISK quicker than them.

No post on the forums by a dev can override what you agreed to in the EULA.
#77 - 2013-04-18 15:14:58 UTC
I'm turning my evemon market uploader back on now that this clarification is out.

Spaceship Pilot.

Caldari State
#78 - 2013-04-18 15:15:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
Quote:
All of those are illegal by the EULA, as they give you an advantage over other players, and allow you to gain ISK quicker than them.


So can a well designed spreadsheet. Is that illegal too?

See? Vague.
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#79 - 2013-04-18 15:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Selena Na'sharr
Edit: Thanks for the answer. :)
C C P Alliance
#80 - 2013-04-18 15:16:35 UTC
Muscaat wrote:


For years, CCP have been saying "cache scraping is OK". Then out of the blue we get a dev blog and wiki page telling us exactly the opposite: cache scraping is banned and CCP can ban you for doing it. Then, in the comments thread accompanying the dev blog, we get a dev saying in effect "it's banned and we can ban you for it, but we probably won't".

That's not exactly clarifying the situation to me.

I have a personal interest here: I have both written a market cache scraper and also run a website that uses scraped market data. Now, after investing years of development effort into both having been told it's OK to do so, CCP suddenly tell me I could be banned for it? That's not pleasant.

And there are many more people out there who've invested way more time and effort into developing third-party applications than I have.

It might seem like nitpicking, but when you've made a heavy investment into a game, suddenly being threatened with a ban for it rather makes one want to seek as much clarity as one can.

Let me reiterate again. The EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This clarification is a response to the request of countless people who read a post by CCP Sreegs that claimed that it was technically against the EULA. This caused a lot of confusion, and we are here to clarify what he meant. Because he was right. Here's the post.

Just a random dude in Team Security.

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