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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-04-18 14:44:17 UTC
Oh well. Much of the infrastructure that players have built up over the years comes tumbling down...

This is a very sad day IMO.

Sorry Steve, I know you have put in a lot of work for the community on it.
CCP Stillman
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2013-04-18 14:45:46 UTC
Fade Toblack wrote:

Hell, let's take this further. On one hand, in the devblog you state that you'll never approve any piece of 3rd party software, meanwhile individual CCP staff are stating that people won't get banned for using EveMon - surely that's an endorsement of a particular piece of 3rd party software?

Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?

Just a random dude in Team Security.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#43 - 2013-04-18 14:48:29 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Fade Toblack wrote:

Hell, let's take this further. On one hand, in the devblog you state that you'll never approve any piece of 3rd party software, meanwhile individual CCP staff are stating that people won't get banned for using EveMon - surely that's an endorsement of a particular piece of 3rd party software?

Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?



What we're saying is:

You're giving us a very mixed message.

You're saying, in a posted policy document: Cache scaping is against the rules and can get you banned.

And you're saying, in a forum post: You won't get banned for using a specific cache scraper (the one built into Evemon)


That, by itself, is a /hideous/ thing to do to your customers.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-04-18 14:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
double post
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-04-18 14:49:21 UTC
Quote:
Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?


Do you think its fair to threaten them all with being banned?

Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans).
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
#46 - 2013-04-18 14:52:27 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?


That's not the point. The point is that your message is confusing.

The wiki page says that I can now be banned from Eve for using a feature in EveMon that is on by default - because that feature breaks the EULA (reverse engineers cache files).

Meanwhile you're posting here saying that I can happily use EveMon (presumably as it comes out of the box) without fear of being banned.

Those two statements are contradictory - so which should I be adhering to?
Ahri Firestar
Terrulian Exo Arcologies
#47 - 2013-04-18 14:52:51 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Fade Toblack wrote:

Hell, let's take this further. On one hand, in the devblog you state that you'll never approve any piece of 3rd party software, meanwhile individual CCP staff are stating that people won't get banned for using EveMon - surely that's an endorsement of a particular piece of 3rd party software?

Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?

That can be thrown right back at you, with the same vague undertone;

Do you think they should be banned for using isboxer?
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#48 - 2013-04-18 14:53:47 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

The EULA has always been completely vague. The nearest we have had previously was that cache scraping was legal.

All EULAs are vague, on purpose. Why? Because they are written to allow the first party to cover all eventualities and do whatever they want with you. The EULA also makes it clear that CCP can ban you for whatever reasons they feel like, should it come to that.

A dev saying that something is okay or another dev saying something should be okay to do doesn't actually void the agreement you've accepted which states that doing so is not okay. The EULA is written by lawyers to protect the company, and random members of staff can't alter its clauses.

What they can do is opt to enforce or not enforce the clauses on a case-by-case basis, which CCP's security staff does. They could just as easily take a blanket approach to the TOS and EULA and enforce it by the letter, which wouldn't just ban everybody using EVEMON but also everybody who's ever used Triexporter to play around with EVE's 3D models, textures, or fonts. But they haven't, because they value these things in the community and don't consider you a bad person. CCP has made an effort to separate botters from other people who violate the EULA, which is more than you can expect from most companies.

"Is this in violation of the EULA" and "Will I get banned for this" are two completely different questions.

Amarrad - Amarr language project
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#49 - 2013-04-18 14:54:20 UTC
Ahri Firestar wrote:


Do you think they should be banned for using isboxer?


Yes.

.
Nicen Jehr
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#50 - 2013-04-18 14:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicen Jehr
jeez calm down stillman has clearly articulated:

- the cache-scraping ban in the EULA allows CCP to take action against those doing it
- but Team Security won't take action against cache scrapers unless they are also botting or otherwise gaining game advantage
Horatius Caul wrote:
"Is this in violation of the EULA" and "Will I get banned for this" are two completely different questions.

Little Things to improve ≡⋁≡ | My Little Things posts
CCP Stillman
C C P
C C P Alliance
#51 - 2013-04-18 14:55:56 UTC
Horatius Caul wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

The EULA has always been completely vague. The nearest we have had previously was that cache scraping was legal.

All EULAs are vague, on purpose. Why? Because they are written to allow the first party to cover all eventualities and do whatever they want with you. The EULA also makes it clear that CCP can ban you for whatever reasons they feel like, should it come to that.

A dev saying that something is okay or another dev saying something should be okay to do doesn't actually void the agreement you've accepted which states that doing so is not okay. The EULA is written by lawyers to protect the company, and random members of staff can't alter its clauses.

What they can do is opt to enforce or not enforce the clauses on a case-by-case basis, which CCP's security staff does. They could just as easily take a blanket approach to the TOS and EULA and enforce it by the letter, which wouldn't just ban everybody using EVEMON but also everybody who's ever used Triexporter to play around with EVE's 3D models, textures, or fonts. But they haven't, because they value these things in the community and don't consider you a bad person. CCP has made an effort to separate botters from other people who violate the EULA, which is more than you can expect from most companies.

"Is this in violation of the EULA" and "Will I get banned for this" are two completely different questions.

This gentleman is spot on. Smile

Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.

Just a random dude in Team Security.
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
#52 - 2013-04-18 14:57:17 UTC
And sorry for the double post.

But ALSO you're saying that cache-scraping HAS ALWAYS been against the EULA - despite posts on the forums by CCP staff in the past stating the opposite.

So what notification will we get when you decide that you're going to go against ALL cache scrapers including EveMon. Are you going to back-date that too?

I also find it fairly despicable that you've offered an amnesty to people who have mistakenly done against the EULA in the past thinking that it was legitimate - however the amnesty is dated 3 days before you brought attention to it.
Dp Wiz
Iron Hands Flight School
#53 - 2013-04-18 14:57:29 UTC
I hope that modification monitoring will not interfere with running Eve on Wine/Cedega/Crossover, since the official package was abandoned. Please make a note somewhere for this case.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#54 - 2013-04-18 15:00:01 UTC
Way to over react people.

This clarification closes a loop hole and gives CCP another tool to use against bots and cheats of various types.

YES, cache scraping is illegal... and if you use cache scraping for botting purposes they reserve the right to shut you down for it.

If you are using cache scraping purely for informational or utility purposes (meaning not to bot or otherwise cheat) then they excercise their right to NOT bust you for it.

This gives them the flexibility to deal with software designed to circumvent the game rules without providing loop holes in their enforcement policy that could be exploited.

This isn't a difficult concept folks.

If you aren't cheating or botting with your cache scraping software they aren't going to ban you, but if the software is modified so as to cross that line they reserve the right to come after you at any time.

Until Crest is fully functional this is actually the smartest way to handle things. It allows them to deal with cheats and bots when necessary without being hamstrung to the point they have to disallow software that is genuinely handy.

Now calm down.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Big Jim Slade
Kentucky Fried Nightmare
#55 - 2013-04-18 15:00:55 UTC
What about all those Overview modifications by changing the overviews .xml file? Are you also checking modified .xml files to see if players are making your game more user friendly and ban them?
Muscaat
EVE Markets
#56 - 2013-04-18 15:01:08 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:

Trust me, we have no interest in banning people unless they are doing something that hurts the game.

Then why post all this crap about suddenly deciding that cache scraping has always been against the EULA and threaten to ban those who do it?

This attempt to clarify the situation seems to have done anything but.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#57 - 2013-04-18 15:02:48 UTC
As I have been saying to CCP Stillman since this went public (the CSM was not informed of this in advance), CCP should provide an API call to get market data before they declare cache scraping illegal. Many useful 3rd party applications depend on cache scraping, including just about every killboard out there (for market prices).

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-04-18 15:03:37 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

This gives them the flexibility to deal with software designed to circumvent the game rules without providing loop holes in their enforcement policy that could be exploited.

This isn't a difficult concept folks.

I want to say I also agree with the rest of your post, but what you said in the quoted section completely cleared it up for me. Thanks for that.

And thanks CCP Stillman for giving us a devblog to argue with you about :)
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
#59 - 2013-04-18 15:04:31 UTC
Horatius Caul wrote:
"Is this in violation of the EULA" and "Will I get banned for this" are two completely different questions.


Not entirely.

Is this in violation of the EULA = YES you can be banned.

So your second question then becomes: "What's the risk that I'm going to get banned for breaking the EULA in this way"

Now I've done something that was previous stated to be not covered by the EULA. So I couldn't be banned.

For the last three days, I have been inadvertently breaking the EULA. This means that I've been personally unable to make the risk assessment over whether I will get banned before breaking the EULA.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-04-18 15:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
Ranger 1 wrote:
Way to over react people.

This clarification closes a loop hole and gives CCP another tool to use against bots and cheats of various types.

YES, cache scraping is illegal... and if you use cache scraping for botting purposes they reserve the right to shut you down for it.

If you are using cache scraping purely for informational or utility purposes (meaning not to bot or otherwise cheat) then they excercise their right to NOT bust you for it.

This gives them the flexibility to deal with software designed to circumvent the game rules without providing loop holes in their enforcement policy that could be exploited.

This isn't a difficult concept folks.

If you aren't cheating or botting with your cache scraping software they aren't going to ban you, but if the software is modified so as to cross that line they reserve the right to come after you at any time.

Until Crest is fully functional this is actually the smartest way to handle things. It allows them to deal with cheats and bots when necessary without being hamstrung to the point they have to disallow software that is genuinely handy.

Now calm down.


Much more clarity is needed.

Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?

'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.