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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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CCP Peligro
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-04-18 14:25:53 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?


Yes


We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.

CCP Peligro - Team Security
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#22 - 2013-04-18 14:26:10 UTC
Imagine if you'd rely on actual ingame mechanics to play the game, what would become of it.

.
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2013-04-18 14:26:11 UTC
Thanks for putting out this devblog.

It's nice to hear from Team Security about policies that seemed a little unclear in the past. It's also nice to know that multiboxing is allowed, and one can use software to do it provided it doesn't modify the client or how the game is played.

The cache scraping ban was unexpected, though. How are eve-central et al going to get their market data? I've configured my EveMon to not send in the market data now (and I assume any wise player will do the same). It kind of sucks that clarifications like these result in viable, useful third-party sites finding themselves in a position of being rules-lawyered out of being viable, especially after all those folks put in such massive effort to make something all of us players can use.

You've said that you're trying to lobby for getting Eve marketeers a feed they can use to get market data; did you consider putting a halt to cache scraping bans until you knew the outcome of that effort, or is it an instance where something bad out there is doing cache scraping (or using cache scraping to control something) and you need to act on it more immediately?
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-04-18 14:27:13 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
When will you be taking down your illegal Eve Market endpoint Steve?

lol



EMDR, by itself, is fine. As it does no scraping. It does takes data from clients (like evemon) which do the scraping, but it does no scraping itself.

What'd be a semi-workable solution, would be for CCP themselves to feed data into EMDR.


And you are happy to run for CSM pushing data that has all been obtained through officially banned means?

Isn't that a bit laughable?
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-04-18 14:27:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Caviar Liberta
Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero and clicking autopilot in route to the gate so your ship jumps when it reaches the gate. Disable the autopilot as soon as you jump the gate and repeat.

So this is an offending action now?

-edit-

I was doing this before the jump option was added to the warp to gate features.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#26 - 2013-04-18 14:29:53 UTC
"Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero"

m8

.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-04-18 14:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
CCP Peligro wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?


Yes


We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.


And how will you tell the difference between an EVEMON user that you are 'not looking for' and an evil botter?

There is no difference. It is totally unenforceable. So why ban it?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#28 - 2013-04-18 14:30:13 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero and clicking autopilot in route to the gate so your ship jumps when it reaches the gate. Disable the autopilot as soon as you jump the gate and repeat.

So this is an offending action now?

-edit-

I was doing this before the jump option was added to the warp to gate features.



No. Having software that does it for you is an offending action.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-04-18 14:30:19 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero and clicking autopilot in route to the gate so your ship jumps when it reaches the gate. Disable the autopilot as soon as you jump the gate and repeat.

So this is an offending action now?

-edit-

I was doing this before the jump option was added to the gate warp to gate features.

There is apparently a specific client modification that turns off your need to turn the autopilot on/off, so you can AFK autopilot-to-zero.

Kudos to them for finding that one, and banning the people doing it.
CCP Stillman
C C P
C C P Alliance
#30 - 2013-04-18 14:30:50 UTC
Mechaet wrote:

The cache scraping ban was unexpected, though. How are eve-central et al going to get their market data? I've configured my EveMon to not send in the market data now (and I assume any wise player will do the same). It kind of sucks that clarifications like these result in viable, useful third-party sites finding themselves in a position of being rules-lawyered out of being viable, especially after all those folks put in such massive effort to make something all of us players can use.

You've said that you're trying to lobby for getting Eve marketeers a feed they can use to get market data; did you consider putting a halt to cache scraping bans until you knew the outcome of that effort, or is it an instance where something bad out there is doing cache scraping (or using cache scraping to control something) and you need to act on it more immediately?

I want to clarify that the cache scraping ban isn't new. If you read the EULA, this isn't a new thing. It has never been allowed by the EULA.

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.

Just a random dude in Team Security.
Prince aikka
#31 - 2013-04-18 14:31:35 UTC
3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.

Does this effect use of a game pad like the Belkin Nostromo?
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-04-18 14:32:18 UTC
Roime wrote:
"Warp to zero autopilot? You can do that manually by warping to zero"

m8



The jump option lets you warp to zero and jump the gate.

Prior to the jump feature being added, a way to do that was warping to zero and clicking autopilot so you jumped the gate without having to do anything once you reached the gate.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#33 - 2013-04-18 14:32:35 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
When will you be taking down your illegal Eve Market endpoint Steve?

lol



EMDR, by itself, is fine. As it does no scraping. It does takes data from clients (like evemon) which do the scraping, but it does no scraping itself.

What'd be a semi-workable solution, would be for CCP themselves to feed data into EMDR.


And you are happy to run for CSM pushing data that has all been obtained through officially banned means?

Isn't that a bit laughable?



I'm not going to knee jerk take it down. What happened before the cache scraping became common was an uploaded based on manually exported market data (using the export button in client). I'd be surprised if that's not reimplemented, as an unified uploader feeder. It'll be a PITA, because it will massively impact the relevance of the data, but it's still possible.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Ishihiro tanaka
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2013-04-18 14:34:20 UTC
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :))


This ^^ needs an answer.

Proud recruiter for the Goonswarm Federation. We have space for rent, contact me ingame! Supers for sale via the trusted third-party service of TheMittani. Dozens of satisfied customers bought or sold their super, join their ranks. Convo me!
CCP Peligro
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-04-18 14:34:53 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?


Yes


We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.


And how will you tell the difference between an EVEMON user that you are 'not looking for' and an evil botter?

There is no difference. It is totally unenforceable. So why ban it?


I don't know where you got that from, but we can tell the difference between a bot and a legitimate player.

Cache scraping can be used for botting purposes, in which case we will action against it. EVEMon clearly isn't botting software.

CCP Peligro - Team Security
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-04-18 14:35:03 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Mechaet wrote:

The cache scraping ban was unexpected, though. How are eve-central et al going to get their market data? I've configured my EveMon to not send in the market data now (and I assume any wise player will do the same). It kind of sucks that clarifications like these result in viable, useful third-party sites finding themselves in a position of being rules-lawyered out of being viable, especially after all those folks put in such massive effort to make something all of us players can use.

You've said that you're trying to lobby for getting Eve marketeers a feed they can use to get market data; did you consider putting a halt to cache scraping bans until you knew the outcome of that effort, or is it an instance where something bad out there is doing cache scraping (or using cache scraping to control something) and you need to act on it more immediately?

I want to clarify that the cache scraping ban isn't new. If you read the EULA, this isn't a new thing. It has never been allowed by the EULA.

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.


Sorry but that is rubbish.

The EULA has always been completely vague. The nearest we have had previously was that cache scraping was legal.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9

We have CCP Sreegs' *opinion* that he thought it should be illegal.

You have just spelt out in plain language that it is illegal. This is the first time you have done this.
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-04-18 14:39:34 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Mechaet wrote:

The cache scraping ban was unexpected, though. How are eve-central et al going to get their market data? I've configured my EveMon to not send in the market data now (and I assume any wise player will do the same). It kind of sucks that clarifications like these result in viable, useful third-party sites finding themselves in a position of being rules-lawyered out of being viable, especially after all those folks put in such massive effort to make something all of us players can use.

You've said that you're trying to lobby for getting Eve marketeers a feed they can use to get market data; did you consider putting a halt to cache scraping bans until you knew the outcome of that effort, or is it an instance where something bad out there is doing cache scraping (or using cache scraping to control something) and you need to act on it more immediately?

I want to clarify that the cache scraping ban isn't new. If you read the EULA, this isn't a new thing. It has never been allowed by the EULA.

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.

Firstly, thanks for the clarification.

I just (as a programmer myself) don't see how without hooking into the rest of the system outside of Eve's process how you would be able to determine the difference between EveMon doing cache scraping and "Bill and Ted's Excellent Haxxx" doing cache scraping.

Would you let us know before you start throwing bans out to half the player base that non-malicious-intent cache-scraping is now up on your priority list so we can fall into line? I think I can say the majority of the players are not out to harm or game the system; we're just here to play the game :) If that means turning off our market data uploaders in our skill planning programs, I'm pretty sure we'd be fine with that. You'll notice my original response was that of concern for the third-party ecosystem people have built around Eve, not necessarily our fates as players. I'm fairly certain I'm not going to feel the ban hammer for running a simple skill planning software suite (that also happens to cache-scrape for non-botting/RMT purposes).
CCP Peligro
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-04-18 14:40:24 UTC
Ishihiro tanaka wrote:
Selena Na'sharr wrote:
What's the position on gaming keyboards with macro-capabilities, such as the Logitech G15? Its driver inherently supports some level of user-initiated automation. (in short, do I need to look for a new keyboard? :))


This ^^ needs an answer.


I'm typing on a G15 right now. If you turn your keyboard into a bot, we'll deal with that, but otherwise you are perfectly safe.

CCP Peligro - Team Security
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#39 - 2013-04-18 14:40:34 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
Mechaet wrote:

The cache scraping ban was unexpected, though. How are eve-central et al going to get their market data? I've configured my EveMon to not send in the market data now (and I assume any wise player will do the same). It kind of sucks that clarifications like these result in viable, useful third-party sites finding themselves in a position of being rules-lawyered out of being viable, especially after all those folks put in such massive effort to make something all of us players can use.

You've said that you're trying to lobby for getting Eve marketeers a feed they can use to get market data; did you consider putting a halt to cache scraping bans until you knew the outcome of that effort, or is it an instance where something bad out there is doing cache scraping (or using cache scraping to control something) and you need to act on it more immediately?

I want to clarify that the cache scraping ban isn't new. If you read the EULA, this isn't a new thing. It has never been allowed by the EULA.

In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.


Sorry but that is rubbish.

The EULA has always been completely vague. The nearest we have had previously was that cache scraping was legal.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9

We have CCP Sreegs' *opinion* that he thought it should be illegal.

You have just spelt out in plain language that it is illegal. This is the first time you have done this.


This. I'll be disabling my own uploads from Evemon, as we had been running under a 'It's ok to do' from a number of GMs. And I'd expect anyone else to do the same. (To clarify an earlier point, if there's no alternate uploader for EMDR made available, that will also be disabled.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
#40 - 2013-04-18 14:42:40 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.


You're saying that in the forums, but the wiki page reads like this:

Quote:
We recognize that some players have engaged in cache scraping in the past, and we want to be clear this practice is not permitted. That said, unless there is an extreme case (i.e., cache scraping combined with other EULA violations), we will not penalize players who have engaged in this practice prior to 15 April 2013. Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans). In addition, we also may consider eliminating the cache to eliminate this practice and for performance reasons.


Which basically says that any player who uses a cache scraper after 15th April 2013 (3 DAYS AGO!) can now be banned for that purpose.

ALSO SURELY THAT PARAGRAPH IS SO IMPORTANT THAT IT SHOULD BE ON THE DEV BLOG?

Thing is, I've used EveMon to cache scrape in the last 3 days. So in theory by the rule of the EULA you can ban me at any time.

I've used it in the past due to messages from CCP staff stating that cache-scraping was not reverse-engineering and outside the client and therefore not covered by the EULA.

Basically I'm finding the mixed messaging confusing, and this attempt at clarifying your position is only aiding to confuse things. In the dev-blog you're referring to the wiki page as being the official stance - eg cache scraping is now a bannable offence, meanwhile at the same time you're posing messages here saying that you're not going to ban people for using EveMon to cache-scrape.

Hell, let's take this further. On one hand, in the devblog you state that you'll never approve any piece of 3rd party software, meanwhile individual CCP staff are stating that people won't get banned for using EveMon - surely that's an endorsement of a particular piece of 3rd party software?