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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#601 - 2013-04-15 20:09:28 UTC
Kinda sad how few people are defending the old typhoon. We really need some feedback from CCP Rise on what's gonna happen. I really want to see minmatar keep at least one utility battleship.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Miss Mass
Doomheim
#602 - 2013-04-15 21:10:42 UTC
Garresh wrote:
Kinda sad how few people are defending the old typhoon. We really need some feedback from CCP Rise on what's gonna happen. I really want to see minmatar keep at least one utility battleship.
Though I think some of the comments that have been made, including yours, were quite persuasive. Unfortunately I'm not having the feeling that that's going to translate into any changes to their plans for Odyssey.

I've become somewhat resigned to simply hoping that the Typhoon Fleet Issue will maintain to the character of the Typhoon that we love.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#603 - 2013-04-15 21:41:44 UTC
On the podcast/twitch thing it seemed as if CCP Rise probably won't make many changes until after live testing.... But it would be good to get some sort of confirmation.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#604 - 2013-04-16 02:00:10 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
On the podcast/twitch thing it seemed as if CCP Rise probably won't make many changes until after live testing.... But it would be good to get some sort of confirmation.


They completely skipped over Minmatar at the beginning when discussing the BS changes. Over half way done - still listening.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#605 - 2013-04-16 02:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
On the podcast/twitch thing it seemed as if CCP Rise probably won't make many changes until after live testing.... But it would be good to get some sort of confirmation.


They completely skipped over Minmatar at the beginning when discussing the BS changes. Over half way done - still listening.


They never get back to Minmatar. I'd say it's because Kil2 and both hosts are heavily Gallente pilots.

-Liang

Ed: Kil2 does say that he feels it's kinda cool how Caldari has an ewar hull and Minmatar has two attack hulls - a point which I actually agree with.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#606 - 2013-04-16 10:20:06 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
On the podcast/twitch thing it seemed as if CCP Rise probably won't make many changes until after live testing.... But it would be good to get some sort of confirmation.


They completely skipped over Minmatar at the beginning when discussing the BS changes. Over half way done - still listening.


They never get back to Minmatar. I'd say it's because Kil2 and both hosts are heavily Gallente pilots.

-Liang

Ed: Kil2 does say that he feels it's kinda cool how Caldari has an ewar hull and Minmatar has two attack hulls - a point which I actually agree with.



Rememberign that we had to make a giatn outcry for them to perceive that race identity was more important thatn uniformity and minmatar should have 2 attack hulls.

But I agree with you... its clear that gallente received much more attention, not that they did not deserve.. but other races also deseve it. And minmatar still have the LOOONG stanting issue of lack of tempest identity.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#607 - 2013-04-16 10:48:35 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
On the podcast/twitch thing it seemed as if CCP Rise probably won't make many changes until after live testing.... But it would be good to get some sort of confirmation.


They completely skipped over Minmatar at the beginning when discussing the BS changes. Over half way done - still listening.


They never get back to Minmatar. I'd say it's because Kil2 and both hosts are heavily Gallente pilots.

-Liang

Ed: Kil2 does say that he feels it's kinda cool how Caldari has an ewar hull and Minmatar has two attack hulls - a point which I actually agree with.



Rememberign that we had to make a giatn outcry for them to perceive that race identity was more important thatn uniformity and minmatar should have 2 attack hulls.

But I agree with you... its clear that gallente received much more attention, not that they did not deserve.. but other races also deseve it. And minmatar still have the LOOONG stanting issue of lack of tempest identity.

To be fair, Gallente was always broken. When CCP Tuxford's devblog introduced the Hyperion, he half apologised for running out of ideas for the bonus and ever since then, almost every game design change or every module nerf has weakened Gallente disproportionately. Even after the hybrid rebalance no one was satisfied, and we're still waiting to see what lies in store for any ship previously focused on medium rails.

Meanwhile, minmatar had some of the biggest rebalances ever - being reborn as Winmatar. There are still a few problems though. In some ways, Artillery is papering over the cracks between the Maelstrom and Tempest and in many ways the Old and the New Tempest is uncompetitive, and not really suiting the way players generally prefer to use the ship.

Ideally, I'd restore the slot, drones and hardpoints Typhoon almost back to the way it was, keeping everything else changed including the bonuses. The 2 utility high slots would remain on the ship best, and most likely to need to use it (way better synergy with >40km torps than <50km Autocannons) and the Tempest, relatively low on flexibility given the existing weapons bonuses would get the additional flexibility 12 Mid+Lows provides.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#608 - 2013-04-16 11:43:44 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
On the podcast/twitch thing it seemed as if CCP Rise probably won't make many changes until after live testing.... But it would be good to get some sort of confirmation.


They completely skipped over Minmatar at the beginning when discussing the BS changes. Over half way done - still listening.


They never get back to Minmatar. I'd say it's because Kil2 and both hosts are heavily Gallente pilots.

-Liang

Ed: Kil2 does say that he feels it's kinda cool how Caldari has an ewar hull and Minmatar has two attack hulls - a point which I actually agree with.



Rememberign that we had to make a giatn outcry for them to perceive that race identity was more important thatn uniformity and minmatar should have 2 attack hulls.

But I agree with you... its clear that gallente received much more attention, not that they did not deserve.. but other races also deseve it. And minmatar still have the LOOONG stanting issue of lack of tempest identity.

To be fair, Gallente was always broken. When CCP Tuxford's devblog introduced the Hyperion, he half apologised for running out of ideas for the bonus and ever since then, almost every game design change or every module nerf has weakened Gallente disproportionately. Even after the hybrid rebalance no one was satisfied, and we're still waiting to see what lies in store for any ship previously focused on medium rails.

Meanwhile, minmatar had some of the biggest rebalances ever - being reborn as Winmatar. There are still a few problems though. In some ways, Artillery is papering over the cracks between the Maelstrom and Tempest and in many ways the Old and the New Tempest is uncompetitive, and not really suiting the way players generally prefer to use the ship.

Ideally, I'd restore the slot, drones and hardpoints Typhoon almost back to the way it was, keeping everything else changed including the bonuses. The 2 utility high slots would remain on the ship best, and most likely to need to use it (way better synergy with >40km torps than <50km Autocannons) and the Tempest, relatively low on flexibility given the existing weapons bonuses would get the additional flexibility 12 Mid+Lows provides.


damm... lets kick the bucket!

3/8/8 with 3 turrets and 10% rof per level and 10% damage per level :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#609 - 2013-04-16 11:46:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
It should also be mentioned that we hope to have a look at cruise missiles and torpedos in time for the summer expansion as well.


Can we please get the thread about this rolling too? It is a crucial piece of rebalancing and should be taken into account.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#610 - 2013-04-16 11:47:22 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


damm... lets kick the bucket!

3/8/8 with 3 turrets and 10% rof per level and 10% damage per level :P

Where do I sign? :P

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#611 - 2013-04-16 13:46:10 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rememberign that we had to make a giatn outcry for them to perceive that race identity was more important thatn uniformity and minmatar should have 2 attack hulls.


Exactly ^ :) I think we were the biggest advocates along with a few others of reducing the Tempest signature initially, but now CCP Rise is taking all the credit for our idea. :)
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#612 - 2013-04-16 13:53:11 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Ideally, I'd restore the slot, drones and hardpoints Typhoon almost back to the way it was, keeping everything else changed including the bonuses.


I wouldn't mind the old layout either. That way you not getting quite the versatility with the medium slots though.

I made my proposal for the Typhoon in another thread. This way you can keep some of the utility of the old Typhoon but still keep the mid slot which I think was a good addition by Rise.

Typhoon:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher explosion velocity

Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 5 turrets, 5 launchers (-1)
Fittings: 12500 PWG, 640 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 6000 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1087s / 4.97
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .11 / 103600000 / 15.8
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 (+25) / 200 (+100)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 115 / 7
Sensor strength: 19 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 330[/quote]


I can imagine fitting the Typhoon proposed above something like this

[Typhoon, Typhoon]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Target Painter II
Target Painter II

Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Hobgoblin II x10
Ogre II x6


The torp launchers put out 826 dps at max skills, the unbonused autos would put out an extra 111 dps, then unbonused heavy drones an additional 317.

This way the Typhoon still can fully utilise all 3 weapon systems, including a decently sized drone bay, and does not simply become and armoured Raven.

Looks quite fun to fit and fly, and still maintains a good use for all 3 weapons systems if required. That is pretty cookie cutter though, I'm sure the ship engineers could come up with something much better.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#613 - 2013-04-16 14:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Garresh wrote:
Kinda sad how few people are defending the old typhoon. We really need some feedback from CCP Rise on what's gonna happen. I really want to see minmatar keep at least one utility battleship.


I've been defending to keep the old Typhoon character through out this thread. But with nothing new coming from CCP Rise for a while now I think people have dropped off until some new information comes out. I reckon they will be back when we get some more news though.

Even if nothing else changes on the typhoon I think we can at least hopefully expect some changes in the drone bay department. At least that is what I'm gunning for, I think that is the single most important change needed throughout the whole minmatar line up right at the moment.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#614 - 2013-04-16 14:26:57 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rememberign that we had to make a giatn outcry for them to perceive that race identity was more important thatn uniformity and minmatar should have 2 attack hulls.


Exactly ^ :) I think we were the biggest advocates along with a few others of reducing the Tempest signature initially, but now CCP Rise is taking all the credit for our idea. :)



I do not care for credits.. I care for things being done right. The guys at ccp working on mechanics adn ship balance with they have memoy know who are the people that have been giving suggestions that eventually came to get into the game. I have my own few, but do not need any credits ackknowlegment.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#615 - 2013-04-16 19:29:12 UTC
Miss Mass wrote:
Garresh wrote:
Kinda sad how few people are defending the old typhoon. We really need some feedback from CCP Rise on what's gonna happen. I really want to see minmatar keep at least one utility battleship.
Though I think some of the comments that have been made, including yours, were quite persuasive. Unfortunately I'm not having the feeling that that's going to translate into any changes to their plans for Odyssey.

I've become somewhat resigned to simply hoping that the Typhoon Fleet Issue will maintain to the character of the Typhoon that we love.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#616 - 2013-04-16 21:29:46 UTC
Was just thinking of how the new ship progression would work, and I think it would be great for Rise to model any further tweaks to the Tempest on being the bigger brother to the Hurricane.

Right now the Tempest is already a lot of the old hurricane we all loved and also the current navy issue one which is being returned. They both have the two utility high slots, great projectile damage application, ability to be shield or armour tanked, and also the ability to be auto or artillery fit.

I think if we can get a sort of bigger brother version to the hurricane then that will make a lot of sense and will become a ship which everyone will really love.

That way we could have a missile and drone line of ships, and then a fast attack projectile line of ships.

Breacher > Talwar > Bellicose > Cyclone > Typhoon

Rifter > Thrasher > Stabber > Hurricane > Tempest

That would make a lot of sense if the ship progression went something like that.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#617 - 2013-04-16 21:43:24 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

I think if we can get a sort of bigger brother version to the hurricane then that will make a lot of sense and will become a ship which everyone will really love.

That way we could have a missile and drone line of ships, and then a fast attack projectile line of ships.

Breacher > Talwar > Bellicose > Cyclone > Typhoon

Rifter > Thrasher > Stabber > Hurricane > Tempest

That would make a lot of sense if the ship progression went something like that.


Assumed i have read the proposed changes correctly and haven't had a major derp, thats exactly what ccp is going for.
making the typhoon drone bay smaller is part of that. it was bigger as you would have expected.
but i would not complain for the current typhoon to get the FleetScythe treatment and otherwise stay as it is right now ^^
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#618 - 2013-04-16 21:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
The Tempest is already an overgrown hurricane (except it can still fit 1600mm plates Lol), and it still kinda sucks.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
May Ke
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#619 - 2013-04-16 21:50:39 UTC
I don't often post, but I feel the need to here.

You have torn the soul from the heart of the Typhoon.
You have also given the Minmatar 3 Attack Battleships, in your own words, so where is our alternative?


CCP Rise wrote:


Typhoon:
.... it will be sacrificing some of this utility to take on such a strong attack role – this is a point for which we are paying close attention to your feedback.



You keep nerfing Minmatar ships, are you trying to make up for that projectile weapons buff a few years back?





.

Who? Me?
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#620 - 2013-04-16 21:55:25 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Assumed i have read the proposed changes correctly and haven't had a major derp, thats exactly what ccp is going for.
making the typhoon drone bay smaller is part of that. it was bigger as you would have expected.
but i would not complain for the current typhoon to get the FleetScythe treatment and otherwise stay as it is right now ^^


Yes, I'm not sure if it is intentional by CCP to put the Tempest into that line, but it definitely would make sense, so perhaps you are right and that is what they were doing all along.

A lot of the missile ships do have a better drone bay compared to the projectile line of ships. So hopefully it wont be too out of place to give the Typhoon at least a 200m3 bay even if bw stays at 100m3.

Pattern Clarc wrote:
The Tempest is already an overgrown hurricane (except it can still fit 1600mm plates Lol), and it still kinda sucks.


Yeah, that is how me and a lot of people already fly them. They definitley don't suck though so would have to disagree on that one. :) the current Tempest is very versatile as the hurricane is so I find a lot of use for it. Seems many other do also as CCP Rise mentioned in the original post.