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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#441 - 2013-04-12 13:02:59 UTC
We gained GeDomis and RaPhoons. Cool
Caius Moneo
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#442 - 2013-04-12 13:10:50 UTC
I'd like to see CCP RIse considere an EHP increase for all battleships. This is just for the sake to differentiate them even more from battlecruisers and can be viewed separately from balancing battleships vs battleships.

I just hope CCP will keep iterating the ship balance and not loose focus like many times before.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#443 - 2013-04-12 13:19:02 UTC
I Just want the drones back. The more I think about it, the more I realize how useless unbonused guns are with the new layout. I really just want the phoon to retain its utility. Like the new phoon is strong but it looks very unminmatar in its current state.

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Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#444 - 2013-04-12 13:27:04 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:
So the only attack BB is going to be a missile boat. Ugh I am not saying that the new phoon isn't going to be decent. I just don't like projectiles being omitted out of a whole subclass of ships when it is the signature weapon of the race.



I heartily agree with this.. The phoon is the first BS I ever owned way back.. and promptly lost not long after!

It's one of those Rare ships in game that can do everything & nothing, yet in the right hands can be devastating on the field.

Disco Phoon, Neut-a-phoon, Jam-a-phoon, bait-a-phoon - just some of the numerous fun fittings that could be had with this ship.

Personally, I'd like it left how it is - the odd man out, that unique ship where no-one really knows what you're fit is.

By saying you want shot of the tiers, what will happen is 1 will be preferred over 2 over 3.

So in peoples minds, there will always be a " Use 1 > 2 > 3 "

Lets keeps each ship unique

Mael - King of the Alpha - Med~Long Range Arty Boat
Pest - Short~Mid range AC brawler
Phoon - the "roll the dice" utility BS

That's my personal take on things (good or bad) Cool

Not fired a shot in anger since 2011.... Trigger finger is starting to get somewhat itchy.......
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#445 - 2013-04-12 13:53:54 UTC
Well, these changes seem quite good... I'll miss the Typhoon's large drone bay though...
Liastr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#446 - 2013-04-12 14:34:54 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:
Well, these changes seem quite good... I'll miss the Typhoon's large drone bay though...


Likewise. I would've almost preferred seeing the Typhoon as a combat drone boat with missiles or guns as secondary. Maybe a resistance bonus + drone damage/hp bonus. I get this is a way-off idea though.

I can see the logic behind the proposed changes, but would it really hurt to keep the bigger drone bay? Even with a limited bandwidth?
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#447 - 2013-04-12 15:07:00 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The previous Tempest iteration was better than what's up here now.
The people complaining about the signature radius are high.
Now the ship is woefully inadequate compared to every other BS.



You are the one high. The 2 secodns extra that other battleships take to lock a tempest provide WAY more Effective hitpoints thatn the little bit it lost. Its very adequate for qhen you want to oerate in an attack role, kill somethign and get out. Very minmatar and much more interesting that simply having more HP taht is a role the tempest would ALWAYS loose to the abaddon.


Those two extra seconds mean very very little when you're damage AND tank is lower than the competition by a fair bit.
None of the battleships are really so cap insecure that dual heavy neuts will make up for the ships lack of dps or hitpoints.
The only thing this ship does is a half-baked nano attempt What?

You've basically just talked yourselves out of a decent armor tanking Tempest, all because you like to think the Tempest is a fast kitey ship with a small sig.

Within your own race you're being outperformed:
For long range the Maelstrom is better.
For nanoing the Typhoon is better.
For brawling either the Typhoon OR Mael do a better job.
For mobile pot shots where you aren't taking any damage, the Tornado is better.

Once you start bringing in the other races, you're even further up **** creek.
Keep in mind that the Megathron is BARELY larger (20m3), quicker and more agile, despite being plated up.

Not the mention the amount of hate for the new Typhoon. Sure I love split weapon systems, and there was nothing really wrong with the old Phoon. HOWEVER, the new one is a better ship.
You people ARE aware how much that ship is going to hurt right?
You're also aware of how bloody fast / agile it is right?

Rise is giving you guys awesome Minmatar ships on a silver platter, and you're collectively taking a dump on it because you'd prefer the race to be inferior.



You are really bad at math and how a combat works.



Imagine that 2 of the original tempest with 1200 extra HP fight 2 abaddons with pulses. Then same thign with the new proposal.. The smaller tempests take almsot 2 seconds more to be locked. That roughly equates to 1800-1900 damage sabved only there. Then the bad tracking pulses will miss a few shots from the large tempest, but MANY more from the smaller ones. At end the less HP tempest have way more effective defense than the original version. The larger the opposing force, the larger the smaller tempest advantage will be. new tempest is much better.

The new tempest just need a tiny bit more speed to match megathron speed.
Torrelus Toh'Kon
Parallax Shift
#448 - 2013-04-12 15:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Torrelus Toh'Kon
So happy to see the new Typhoon. It's always been one of my favourite ships despite its failings. Yes it was a good (schizophrenic) utility ship, but it deserves to be a full on killer.

Been wanting it to have 6 launchers all along, and that mid-slot too! Just how I always imagined it should be, I love it!

However, did we really have to lose the drone bandwitdh? The drone bay will be missed.


CCP Rise, you seem to have screwed up the defense stats on the Pest and Phoon.

Tempest -
Posted (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+46) / 7300(+1089) / 6800(+259)
Intended (shields / armor / hull) : 7300(+1089) / 7000(+46) / 6800(+159)

Typhoon -
Posted (shields / armor / hull) : 6500(+289) / 6000(+531) / 6000(-211)
Intended (shields / armor / hull) : 6000(+531) / 6500(+289) / 6000(-211)
Also the mass stat it wrong... either it is 103,600,000 (same as current) OR it has changed by -2,000,000... please clarify.

Cool
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#449 - 2013-04-12 15:34:59 UTC
How about a comment or two from CCP Rise on the unfolding debate? What are your thoughts on some of the ideas presented since the second iteration of the original proposals were made?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Icarius
The Wings of Maak
#450 - 2013-04-12 17:23:18 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Not the mention the amount of hate for the new Typhoon. Sure I love split weapon systems, and there was nothing really wrong with the old Phoon. HOWEVER, the new one is a better ship.
You people ARE aware how much that ship is going to hurt right?
You're also aware of how bloody fast / agile it is right?

Rise is giving you guys awesome Minmatar ships on a silver platter, and you're collectively taking a dump on it because you'd prefer the race to be inferior.


I am AWARE that with new typhoon i can have +8% dps for a hudge loss of versatility and it does not worth it.

Nothing personnal, i also noticed that you have a 65% pilot efficiency and 0 kills with a typhoon for the last 3 years .. I am rather skeptical
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#451 - 2013-04-12 18:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Garresh
Anabella Rella wrote:
How about a comment or two from CCP Rise on the unfolding debate? What are your thoughts on some of the ideas presented since the second iteration of the original proposals were made?


I second this. If our ideas don't fit with the new design direction might as well let us know so we can refocus accordingly. Kinda feels hard to discuss it ATM since we're not sure what's on the table.

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Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2013-04-12 18:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Seishi Maru wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The previous Tempest iteration was better than what's up here now.
The people complaining about the signature radius are high.
Now the ship is woefully inadequate compared to every other BS.



You are the one high. The 2 secodns extra that other battleships take to lock a tempest provide WAY more Effective hitpoints thatn the little bit it lost. Its very adequate for qhen you want to oerate in an attack role, kill somethign and get out. Very minmatar and much more interesting that simply having more HP taht is a role the tempest would ALWAYS loose to the abaddon.


Those two extra seconds mean very very little when you're damage AND tank is lower than the competition by a fair bit.
None of the battleships are really so cap insecure that dual heavy neuts will make up for the ships lack of dps or hitpoints.
The only thing this ship does is a half-baked nano attempt What?

You've basically just talked yourselves out of a decent armor tanking Tempest, all because you like to think the Tempest is a fast kitey ship with a small sig.

Within your own race you're being outperformed:
For long range the Maelstrom is better.
For nanoing the Typhoon is better.
For brawling either the Typhoon OR Mael do a better job.
For mobile pot shots where you aren't taking any damage, the Tornado is better.

Once you start bringing in the other races, you're even further up **** creek.
Keep in mind that the Megathron is BARELY larger (20m3), quicker and more agile, despite being plated up.

Not the mention the amount of hate for the new Typhoon. Sure I love split weapon systems, and there was nothing really wrong with the old Phoon. HOWEVER, the new one is a better ship.
You people ARE aware how much that ship is going to hurt right?
You're also aware of how bloody fast / agile it is right?

Rise is giving you guys awesome Minmatar ships on a silver platter, and you're collectively taking a dump on it because you'd prefer the race to be inferior.



You are really bad at math and how a combat works.



Imagine that 2 of the original tempest with 1200 extra HP fight 2 abaddons with pulses. Then same thign with the new proposal.. The smaller tempests take almsot 2 seconds more to be locked. That roughly equates to 1800-1900 damage sabved only there. Then the bad tracking pulses will miss a few shots from the large tempest, but MANY more from the smaller ones. At end the less HP tempest have way more effective defense than the original version. The larger the opposing force, the larger the smaller tempest advantage will be. new tempest is much better.

The new tempest just need a tiny bit more speed to match Megathron speed.



Because Tempests have great tracking, and the new Apocs and Domis don't shred them right?
If you're sitting still, you're an easy target. If you're mwding around, you're an easy target.
If you're shooting a ship that has sentries deployed, lock time is negated because sentries shoot back right away.

There is only 1 situation where a Tempest works better than a Typhoon, and that's plinking small tackle from 40-50km away.
If you don't have missile skills to use the Typhoon, well yea that's a ****** deal, but at the same time, Minmatar have been a split race since day one. That's like complaining you didn't train T2 heavy/sentry drones and now you're upset because the Dominix lost its hybrid bonus.

As for wanting your "versatility" back on the Typhoon...
You folks make it sound like you ran both missiles AND ACs on your Typhoons.
But if that were the case, you'd be embracing its changes, because you've already got missile skills and the now the ship is better! If that ISN'T the case, and you DON'T have missile skills, the Tempest has always been the better of the two.
The Phoon loosing its extra heavy drones does suck a little bit overall, but at the end of the day it's not a drone ship and Minmatar is not a drone race.


And to reiterate on the Tempest..
People moaning to change one of the pests damage bonuses to falloff and change a high to a mid...
You're high. Enjoy your lame 3 slot shield tank (pvp), even weaker damage output, and now utterly useless armor setups.

The pest is not a nano ship. Especially since a good amount of BS will slap the **** out of your kiting & mwding hull. Hell, a cruise phoon (before any missile boosts) will bone your ass so damn fast, it'll make your head spin.

The pest needs to be looked at like a minmatar Megathron, because that's the kind of ship they don't have. It needs a ship in the ~110-120k + 930dps range, and it doesn't come close now that it was redacted.

The Typhoon, Maelstrom, Dominix, and any of the Amarr ships will give zero fucks how far or how kitey a Tempest is.
The Typhoon IS the better kiting and nanoing ship. The only thing the pest does better is plink frigates from 40+km.

The nanophoon does exactly what you people are asking for, but because it uses missiles, you don't want anything to do with it Roll

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#453 - 2013-04-12 20:00:21 UTC
@ Prom

The Tempest actually hits that bar you set:

Updated Traditional Setup: (takes increased PG into account)

High:
800mm II x 6
Heavy Unstable Fluctuator x 2
Mid:
Prototype 100 MN MWD
Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster
TC II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
1600 Rolled Tungsten X 2
EANM II
DC II
Gyro II x 2
Rigs:
Armor explosive
Trimark x 2
Drones:
Flight of Valkeries and warriors

861 DPS - 970 overheated. If the OH number is not legit in your eyes you can strip off the Neuts and slap on two 'Malkuth Torp Launchers on it. Your DPS range becomes 969-1098.

EHP prebuff is 97.8k EHP. The Tempest is gaining 1089 to its base armor and will easily hit that 110-120k EHP number.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#454 - 2013-04-12 20:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
That's below 110k ehp, and while it DOES do competitive damage, you're now 100% fixed to a passive armor setup. The Typhoon is clearly the superior ship, made even more obvious as soon as you try to put a rep or something on it.

The previously suggested Tempest stats were much nicer. Sure it was a little bit bigger, but it also had hitpoints similar to that of the other races. A slightly smaller sig is not worth losing 20-30k ehp.

I say keep the slot layout as it is now, but give it the stats that were originally proposed.
Hell, keep the stupid sig if it appeases the masses, it won't be a big deal.

IDEALLY Id like to see the Tempest be a 748 arrangement, but I think the nanofools will cry foul even moreso.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Luke Hammarskjold
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#455 - 2013-04-12 20:25:19 UTC
You could at least give it 125 drone bandwidth and 175 drone bay so its comparable to the geddon...
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#456 - 2013-04-12 20:27:14 UTC
I, for one, am really looking forward to the new Typhoon: at least provided they follow through with the missile tweaks. I'm excited about this expansion.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#457 - 2013-04-12 20:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
That's below 110k ehp, and while it DOES do competitive damage, you're now 100% fixed to a passive armor setup. The Typhoon is clearly the superior ship, made even more obvious as soon as you try to put a rep or something on it.

The previously suggested Tempest stats were much nicer. Sure it was a little bit bigger, but it also had hitpoints similar to that of the other races. A slightly smaller sig is not worth losing 20-30k ehp.

I say keep the slot layout as it is now, but give it the stats that were originally proposed.
Hell, keep the stupid sig if it appeases the masses, it won't be a big deal.

IDEALLY Id like to see the Tempest be a 748 arrangement, but I think the nanofools will cry foul even moreso.


So you want an armour tanking ship with large EHP, a large signature, and a 7/4/8 arrangement..... so basically you don't want a Tempest then.

Also you don't seem to realise how signature radius works.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#458 - 2013-04-12 20:29:48 UTC
On closer inspection, the Tempest is pretty bad.

I'd either go back to making it the slower combat BS with the HP to match, remove the missile hardpoints and give it 125/150 drones.

Or 7/6/6 - making it a strong shield tanker, allowing it to be faster than a Megathron, with decent EHP and DPS (somewhere around proms bench marks) WITH a web and a point. Less neuting power than before, but oh well, you can't have everything.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#459 - 2013-04-12 20:39:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Pattern Clarc wrote:
On closer inspection, the Tempest is pretty bad.

Or 7/6/6 - making it a strong shield tanker, allowing it to be faster than a Megathron, with decent EHP and DPS (somewhere around proms bench marks) WITH a web and a point. Less neuting power than before, but oh well, you can't have everything.


Why keep trying to force it to either shield or armour tank. Minmatar ships are meant to be versatile, and right now people have no idea whether a Tempest will be armour or shield fit. Switching it to have more low or med slots will simply force it to fit either one or the other. The 8/5/6 layout is actually the perfect layout for a Minmatar ship.

If it need further buffs, then buff its damage output and increase its speed and lower its sig, perhaps increas EHP slightly, although currently it is pretty decent in my opinion.

Also those commenting that it doesn't matter whether it has a low or high sig radius clearly do not understand how signature radius works, I suggest you check it out on Agony or Eve uni websites.

To put it basically, a low signature radius mitigates damage in such a way that a high sig and higher EHP ship will still die faster despite the fact it has more shield and armour. The only case this wouldn't apply is when fighting smaller ships, but against anything BS and above it has a big effect. And also that not to mention all the other tactics you run when you have a faster, lighter, and more agile ship.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#460 - 2013-04-12 20:44:36 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Hell, keep the stupid sig if it appeases the masses, it won't be a big deal.

Junko Sideswipe wrote:
I liked the tempest sig at 420. Cool

Please learn how signature radius works. :)