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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#801 - 2013-04-11 01:49:44 UTC
Here's my question: Why do the most powergrid intensive weapon systems boats all have 8 slots?


I just glanced through EFT and all the lasers have a solid 2-300 more powergrid than their hybrid/artillery counterparts. Yet all of the Amarr ships have 8 turret points to fill. If Tachyons will ever be used (ignoring cap issues, I've beat that dead horse for a long time now), they'll need a ship that can...well...fit them. Taking a page from a Jack C Hughes, here's what I've come up with:

Apocalypse:

7- 6 Hardpoints
4
8 (satisfies those who like 8 slots, though to be honest it seems a sentimental thing)

Bonuses:
+10% Damage/Level
+7.5% Tracking/Level

Powergrid would remain mostly the same.

I think tracking is a "better" bonus. Pulse lasers already reach pretty far with scorch, and the bonus will make it more usable against rats of all kind. Maybe overpowered in PvP with a tracking bonus, but it doesn't have the slots for a bunch of webs in order to wreck small ships without sacrificing propulsion, capacitor, or something.

Maybe range would suit it better, but actually making it worthwhile to fit beams on a ship could be interesting.

I'd like to also point out as a side note: Currently the Apoc/Abaddon have the exact same slot layout. In my opinion, it's easy to tell what a ship does from the layout. 8-4-7 and 8-4-7 laser platforms isn't exactly diversifying the Amarr setup, even if one of them does have paper thin tank.

If you really want a crazy idea, what about turning the apoc into a

8 hardpoints/turrets
5 midpoints
6 lowslots
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#802 - 2013-04-11 01:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
I missioned (solo) just fine in an Abaddon as a newbie (a long time ago) with mediocre capacitor skills and a T1 tank, and no cap boosters (too expensive). The Abaddon does not have a capacitor use bonus, and it was and is considered the best Amarr T1 battleship for PvE. I don't understand all the concern about new players of a sudden being unable to use any of the Amarr battleships for missioning and general PvE, especially since the new Apoc will have a stronger capacitor than the Abaddon.

Sure, the Apocalypse's cap use bonus is nice for the week or two it takes to skill up all the cap skills to IV or V. But this is a long-term game, and there's no sense at all in building a ship hull around the premise that a player will use it for a little while and then go on to something better. The whole tierecide is supposed to move us away from ships designed around progression.

As well, the tracking bonus will free up slots in PvE that would otherwise be dedicated to tracking computers or enhancers, and which can be filled with cap mods.

As far as Tachyons go, two things to note:

First, Tachyons are oversized long-range guns. They're not supposed to be easy to fit. We see the same philosophy with Neutron blasters -- they tend to require fitting mods/rigs to fit properly. Some factions get oversized guns in a specific category; some do not. I'm fairly sure that 1400mm artillery is not an oversized gun platform, and so should be usable without fitting mods. If that is not the case, and 1400mm artillery is supposed to be an oversized platform, then 1400mm artillery fitting requirements should be increased to be in line with Tachyons.

Second, the Apocalypse will never be as good a sniper as an Oracle. Its align time is too high, its velocity is too low, and its signature radius is too high to be able to get out before getting probed down. Its cachet is damage projection with Scorch.
Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#803 - 2013-04-11 02:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rikimaru Ichikawa
Nikolai Vodkov wrote:
Go and try to run a level 5 mission with an Apoc, then tell me about it's cap stability. To be honest unless you planning a MAJOR DPS upgrade or CAP AND PG downgrade on lasers across the board, Amarr ships will be simply unusable. Guns, Armor and Cap mods are all heavy PG users and these ships just can't afford to be nerfed in any of those areas without getting massive buffs in others.


^^This. Yes exactly, how can something be nerfed more when it's so tight already, doesn't make sense. What? I don't think some of these changes to the Amarr BS's have been well thought through, especially the proposed changes that affect the Solo pilots / PVE'rs so badly.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#804 - 2013-04-11 02:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Naso Aya
Alice Katsuko wrote:
I missioned (solo) just fine in an Abaddon as a newbie (a long time ago) with mediocre capacitor skills and a T1 tank, and no cap boosters (too expensive). The Abaddon does not have a capacitor use bonus, and it was and is considered the best Amarr T1 battleship for PvE. I don't understand all the concern about new players of a sudden being unable to use any of the Amarr battleships for missioning and general PvE, especially since the new Apoc will have a stronger capacitor than the Abaddon.

Sure, the Apocalypse's cap use bonus is nice for the week or two it takes to skill up all the cap skills to IV or V. But this is a long-term game, and there's no sense at all in building a ship hull around the premise that a player will use it for a little while and then go on to something better. The whole tierecide is supposed to move us away from ships designed around progression.

As well, the tracking bonus will free up slots in PvE that would otherwise be dedicated to tracking computers or enhancers, and which can be filled with cap mods.

As far as Tachyons go, two things to note:

First, Tachyons are oversized long-range guns. They're not supposed to be easy to fit. We see the same philosophy with Neutron blasters -- they tend to require fitting mods/rigs to fit properly. Some factions get oversized guns in a specific category; some do not. I'm fairly sure that 1400mm artillery is not an oversized gun platform, and so should be usable without fitting mods. If that is not the case, and 1400mm artillery is supposed to be an oversized platform, then 1400mm artillery fitting requirements should be increased to be in line with Tachyons.

Second, the Apocalypse will never be as good a sniper as an Oracle. Its align time is too high, its velocity is too low, and its signature radius is too high to be able to get out before getting probed down. Its cachet is damage projection with Scorch.



Just like to point out, if Tachyons were even possible to fit on an Amarr ship, it'd be nice. There's a difference between "hard to fit" and "impossible". It requires 15% extra powergrid to fit the Tachyons on an Abaddon, and two in order to get anything resembling a buffer. The situation on an Apoc would be even worse, yet an oracle can fit a full rack without any issues at all. It seems rather strange.
Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#805 - 2013-04-11 02:33:22 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:


Second, the Apocalypse will never be as good a sniper as an Oracle. Its align time is too high, its velocity is too low, and its signature radius is too high to be able to get out before getting probed down. Its cachet is damage projection with Scorch.


Seems strange to me that x8 tachy II can be fir onto an Oracle no problem (and be cap stable with armour rep and prop mod), but not any of the BS's. Ugh Armour, speed and sig being the biggest diff, but you know what I mean... Blink
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#806 - 2013-04-11 02:50:45 UTC
Mr Hyde113 wrote:

CCP Officially hates Amarr.

No Amarr BS has 8 lows. Megathron now has 8 lows.

Navy Brutix has 7/4/7, Navy Harb 7/5/6

Whats next? Abaddon with 8 Mids?

GG

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Wenthrial Solamar
Brand Newbros
#807 - 2013-04-11 03:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Wenthrial Solamar
Ok, more time for things to sink in.

Yea, The Gedden change is just not useful.

This is truly a Incarna level screw-up.

WHY, no really WHY does Amarr a line of ships that are fully Turret based for DPS need a dominix clone ( or for that matter a Myrm clone ) ?
Really I would like an answer, is is Edict from lead game designer(s) so it must be done ?
Does the balance team think this is a needed item, to help out the poor Amarr line up with a good ship ?
Is this an attempt at a disruption BS , then where is the ewar, give it TD's and make it follow on the path from the Cruicifer and the Arbitrator.
Is this a path to allow aspiring Carrier pilots to get use from there drone skills on the way to a Carrier ?
Is it just to change things up, produce change and prevent stagnation ?

Again the idea is not bad in the absence of any ship, but it is a terrible trade for the existing Gedden.

And for the people rant and raving about how wonderful/OP the 12.5km range bonus is, as a guy the spends all his time flying neut ships, I want to love this new ship, but have been truly at a loss to find a situation where the extra 12k will matter, it is just not long range enough to be tactically any different than 25k , am i missing something ? do engagement in null happen at 30k so this is a game changer.
Is it cool , kinda nice, and will come in handy, sure... does it matter.. not as far as I can tell.
Help me out here, clearly I fail at EvE 'cause I can not see how this range bonus matters.

While we are on the topic of cut and paste ships, how long does it take to cross train a BS after Odyssey 12hr's ?
If I have Drone skills, I can fly a either Armor tanked drone ship in a matter of a day or so, why would I need two of them, for the Neut bonus ?
To quote CCP Rise from the Gall thread:
Quote:

Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. ....


So The entire Neut bonus is worth two Optimal tracking Link-II module in the estimation of the Balance team ?
Can I have a Free Mid instead ?

I'm really trying to understand this... and am just not getting it, every way I look at it this is a half baked design, or a pet project, or driven by some other mechanic that we ( or at least I ) don't see.

To quote CCP Fozzie: ( talking about the changes to the Navy Omen )
Quote:

So far when we've given ships entirely new roles we have usually used ships that previously have no good uses.


This is a second time in the same racial line that this has come up, and it has not happend ( as far as I know) to any other racial line, something is afoot.
Nolove Trader
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#808 - 2013-04-11 03:32:59 UTC
The more I think about the Apoc and it's intended role as an attack BS, the more I am falling for a 6 gun, 10% damage/level design of the ship:

Amarr Battleship skill bonus:

10% to Large Energy Turret Damage per level
7.5% to Large Energy Turret Optimal Range per level

Slot Layout: 7H, 4M, 8L; 6(-2) turrets, 2 launchers (for nostalgic value)
Fittings: 19000 PWG, 540 CPU
Defense (Shield / Armor / Hull): 6000 / 7000 / 7000
Capacitor ( Amount / Recharge Time / average recharge rate): 6400 / 1143 s / 5.6
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 113 / .119 / 97100000 / 16.02s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 73km/ 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Radar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 380

Why the damage bonus? Because the Apocalypse is an Attack Battleship, which are designed to hit hard and good. As it stands now, all other Attack BS share the attribute of having one damage bonus and a second weapon bonus, sometimes for damage projection (Raven, Apoc), sometimes for damage application (Megathron, Typhoon) and in the case of the Tempest going for all out damage. A further common trait is that none of them has a full rack of 8 turret/missile hardpoints, typicalle sporting 6 or 7 weapons, typically featuring 1 or 2 utility highs instead (with the exception of the Mega)

The current Apoc is very odd. Neither does it have a damage bonus, but it does have to feed 8 guns. Let's take a short look on the effective guns/launchers of the attack BS (for the sake of comparability at BS V):

Megathron: 9,3
Tempest: 10
Typhoon: 8
Raven: 8
Apoc(now): 8
Apoc(proposed): 9

Pro-Tipp why missile boats might suck: 8 effective launchers will not cut it in most cases. (Indeed no Missile BS has more than 9.3 effective launchers, while gun-BS cap at 11.6 effective turrets)

The proposed version will bring the Apoc more in line with the other gunnery ships in the attack line, while still trading raw damage against damage projection, which was the traditional strength of laser boats in the last years. The Apoc will especially amplify this role, becoming somewhat like a longrange-version of the Mega2.0, with identical slot design and comparable damage, while being geared more torwards range while the Mega will be the close-range alternative.

All in all, currently the Apoc feels like a bombardement BS that wasn't informed that there are no bombardement ships, only range-inclined attack vessels.
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#809 - 2013-04-11 03:47:43 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Mr Hyde113 wrote:

CCP Officially hates Amarr.

No Amarr BS has 8 lows. Megathron now has 8 lows.

Navy Brutix has 7/4/7, Navy Harb 7/5/6

Whats next? Abaddon with 8 Mids?

GG

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
Wenthrial Solamar
Brand Newbros
#810 - 2013-04-11 04:09:34 UTC
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#811 - 2013-04-11 04:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
Naso Aya wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:
I missioned (solo) just fine in an Abaddon as a newbie (a long time ago) with mediocre capacitor skills and a T1 tank, and no cap boosters (too expensive). The Abaddon does not have a capacitor use bonus, and it was and is considered the best Amarr T1 battleship for PvE. I don't understand all the concern about new players of a sudden being unable to use any of the Amarr battleships for missioning and general PvE, especially since the new Apoc will have a stronger capacitor than the Abaddon.

Sure, the Apocalypse's cap use bonus is nice for the week or two it takes to skill up all the cap skills to IV or V. But this is a long-term game, and there's no sense at all in building a ship hull around the premise that a player will use it for a little while and then go on to something better. The whole tierecide is supposed to move us away from ships designed around progression.

As well, the tracking bonus will free up slots in PvE that would otherwise be dedicated to tracking computers or enhancers, and which can be filled with cap mods.

As far as Tachyons go, two things to note:

First, Tachyons are oversized long-range guns. They're not supposed to be easy to fit. We see the same philosophy with Neutron blasters -- they tend to require fitting mods/rigs to fit properly. Some factions get oversized guns in a specific category; some do not. I'm fairly sure that 1400mm artillery is not an oversized gun platform, and so should be usable without fitting mods. If that is not the case, and 1400mm artillery is supposed to be an oversized platform, then 1400mm artillery fitting requirements should be increased to be in line with Tachyons.

Second, the Apocalypse will never be as good a sniper as an Oracle. Its align time is too high, its velocity is too low, and its signature radius is too high to be able to get out before getting probed down. Its cachet is damage projection with Scorch.



Just like to point out, if Tachyons were even possible to fit on an Amarr ship, it'd be nice. There's a difference between "hard to fit" and "impossible". It requires 15% extra powergrid to fit the Tachyons on an Abaddon, and two in order to get anything resembling a buffer. The situation on an Apoc would be even worse, yet an oracle can fit a full rack without any issues at all. It seems rather strange.


Exactly my point. Tachyons can be fitted onto an Abaddon or an Apocalypse, but at the cost of some tank or damage mods, because they are an oversized gun, are not supposed to be the default long-range weapon for all circumstances. That role is filled by Mega Beams. If Tachyons could be fit onto those hulls without fitting mods, they would wholly outclass Mega Beams.

If 1400mm artillery is supposed to be an oversized turret along the lines of Tachyons, then its fitting requirements should be raised so that they cannot be fit onto the Maesltrom and Tempest so easily. I am leaning more towards this approach, since the relationship between 1200mm and 1400mm artillery is more akin to Mega Beams and Tachyons; 1200mm and 1400mm artillery deal similar dps, but 1400mm artillery has superior range and alpha.

The Oracle is a specialized sniper platform, and even it has to sacrifice a good chunk of tank to fit a full rack of Tachyons .The lack of tank doesn't matter as much for an Oracle because it's not supposed to be able to tank.
Gordon Esil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#812 - 2013-04-11 04:28:36 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Mr Hyde113 wrote:

CCP Officially hates Amarr.

No Amarr BS has 8 lows. Megathron now has 8 lows.

Navy Brutix has 7/4/7, Navy Harb 7/5/6

Whats next? Abaddon with 8 Mids?

GG

^^ This
We gave up on keeping the current BS roles/layout
But give us new ships with a messed up fitting slots??? come one do something about that CCP...
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#813 - 2013-04-11 04:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Naso Aya
Alice Katsuko wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:
I missioned (solo) just fine in an Abaddon as a newbie (a long time ago) with mediocre capacitor skills and a T1 tank, and no cap boosters (too expensive). The Abaddon does not have a capacitor use bonus, and it was and is considered the best Amarr T1 battleship for PvE. I don't understand all the concern about new players of a sudden being unable to use any of the Amarr battleships for missioning and general PvE, especially since the new Apoc will have a stronger capacitor than the Abaddon.

Sure, the Apocalypse's cap use bonus is nice for the week or two it takes to skill up all the cap skills to IV or V. But this is a long-term game, and there's no sense at all in building a ship hull around the premise that a player will use it for a little while and then go on to something better. The whole tierecide is supposed to move us away from ships designed around progression.

As well, the tracking bonus will free up slots in PvE that would otherwise be dedicated to tracking computers or enhancers, and which can be filled with cap mods.

As far as Tachyons go, two things to note:

First, Tachyons are oversized long-range guns. They're not supposed to be easy to fit. We see the same philosophy with Neutron blasters -- they tend to require fitting mods/rigs to fit properly. Some factions get oversized guns in a specific category; some do not. I'm fairly sure that 1400mm artillery is not an oversized gun platform, and so should be usable without fitting mods. If that is not the case, and 1400mm artillery is supposed to be an oversized platform, then 1400mm artillery fitting requirements should be increased to be in line with Tachyons.

Second, the Apocalypse will never be as good a sniper as an Oracle. Its align time is too high, its velocity is too low, and its signature radius is too high to be able to get out before getting probed down. Its cachet is damage projection with Scorch.



Just like to point out, if Tachyons were even possible to fit on an Amarr ship, it'd be nice. There's a difference between "hard to fit" and "impossible". It requires 15% extra powergrid to fit the Tachyons on an Abaddon, and two in order to get anything resembling a buffer. The situation on an Apoc would be even worse, yet an oracle can fit a full rack without any issues at all. It seems rather strange.


Exactly my point. Tachyons can be fitted onto an Abaddon or an Apocalypse, but at the cost of some tank or damage mods, because they are an oversized gun, are not supposed to be the default long-range weapon for all circumstances. That role is filled by Mega Beams. If Tachyons could be fit onto those hulls without fitting mods, they would wholly outclass Mega Beams.

If 1400mm artillery is supposed to be an oversized turret along the lines of Tachyons, then its fitting requirements should be raised so that they cannot be fit onto the Maesltrom and Tempest so easily. I am leaning more towards this approach, since the relationship between 1200mm and 1400mm artillery is more akin to Mega Beams and Tachyons; 1200mm and 1400mm artillery deal similar dps, but 1400mm artillery has superior range and alpha.

The Oracle is a specialized sniper platform, and even it has to sacrifice a good chunk of tank to fit a full rack of Tachyons .The lack of tank doesn't matter as much for an Oracle because it's not supposed to be able to tank.


But you also used neutron blasters as an example of oversized system; while the mega ends up sacrificing tank, it can still FIT the guns on without requiring any powergrid moduals. Just to fit prop, armor, etc, it'll need extra.

EDIT: Hell, I don't know how many people do it, but the hype fits on a full rack of tech II neutron blasters with 4.7k powergrid leftover!
Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#814 - 2013-04-11 04:42:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
May Wanderdriven wrote:
I don't understand why they can't remove 1 gun from the apocalypse and double the damage bonus.


The biggest reason is that there isn't a damage bonus Smile



So instead of responding to the _many_ people that posted well thought out opinions on why the ABADDON and not the Apoc should get this -2 turret 10% treatment +1 lowslot, you respond to the one person that is easiest to target and poke fun at.

Awesome.

Please re-read these responses. There are very good points about cap issues on all Amarr BSs, lack of mid slots on the Apoc (take a high out), and serious doubts on why not a single Amarr BS has 8 lows.
Clark Swanson
Barbs Hammer
Xenta.
#815 - 2013-04-11 05:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Clark Swanson
Selling all my amarr bs.....this is so sad. amarr was reasonably acceptable for pvp...mediocre pve...now, pvp abby is nerfed, apoc usless pve bs, geddon is a neut domi...all good left is the harbi and t2 bs...touch that...and its minus 14.95 from this one and brothers main, alts, friends.

amarr...should have a rate of fire bonused bs...at least...give it to the apocSad
George Boothe
Blootered Bastards
#816 - 2013-04-11 05:25:23 UTC
ITT: "Oh no! My standard fits will not work anymore! Everything is bad! I want the apoc, arma and geddon to keep having the exact same roles with only a price difference!"

:areyouserious:

I for one cannot wait for the new ships. Where most people only see the change to the ship they fly, they often miss the part where all the other ships are getting changed too! I can still remember the cries that the Merlin would be unusable when it was announced that it will get its split weapons removed, now look at how powerful it has become.

I believe that it is beneficial for the game that the BS line is now only one hunk of armor sitting still, shooting and shrugging of the enemy fire, one sightly less tanky hunk of armor that can actually apply its dps to stuff below its size at good ranges, and one hunk of armor that can suck you dry and let its drones do the hard work. This is a lot better in my opinion than three hunks of armor sitting still, shooting and shrugging of enemy fire, where one is a little tankier, one has better cap use, and the third is cheap.
Ryan Easte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#817 - 2013-04-11 05:31:05 UTC
I can't say much as I am not that experienced however I did focus alot of time training towards the Abaddon and being able to fit it correctly, I fell in love with the ship, I think it is one of the most beautiful in game and longed to fly it in PVP so to my understanding is this no longer going to be possible?

Why can't each ship have a valuable role on a battlefield?

I am saddened by this news if I am reading correctly, I don't want to fly something that looks like a fish frame or a fat lady wrapped in spandex and ill be .... if i ever fly a drake again and be another minion.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#818 - 2013-04-11 05:35:27 UTC
George Boothe wrote:
ITT: "Oh no! My standard fits will not work anymore! Everything is bad! I want the apoc, arma and geddon to keep having the exact same roles with only a price difference!"

:areyouserious:

I for one cannot wait for the new ships. Where most people only see the change to the ship they fly, they often miss the part where all the other ships are getting changed too! I can still remember the cries that the Merlin would be unusable when it was announced that it will get its split weapons removed, now look at how powerful it has become.

I believe that it is beneficial for the game that the BS line is now only one hunk of armor sitting still, shooting and shrugging of the enemy fire, one sightly less tanky hunk of armor that can actually apply its dps to stuff below its size at good ranges, and one hunk of armor that can suck you dry and let its drones do the hard work. This is a lot better in my opinion than three hunks of armor sitting still, shooting and shrugging of enemy fire, where one is a little tankier, one has better cap use, and the third is cheap.


Great, but the concern isn't that they'll be different, the concern is whether or not these new fits will work. The entire Amarr line-up is known for cap problems, even with a 50% reduction in cap use on half the damn ships. Taking away that bonus scares those of us who don't see any sign of a laser re-balance. I don't wanna grow into an old bittervet telling newbros to train out of Amarr if they need a mission running boat.

I'm hesitant about the Armageddon because of the weird neut bonus, but that's been covered plenty. So far, the issue has boiled down to which of the boats does CCP expect us to use for solo work? Because it's not the new Armageddon, unless you happened to train drones, and neither of the other ships have cap that'll last longer than 5 minutes with perfect skills.
Terianna Eri
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#819 - 2013-04-11 05:45:13 UTC
All I can say is that I'm glad I'm currently finishing up Battleship V for the other races.

I don't really think the Apoc would benefit that much from a tracking bonus. Lasers already have excellent tracking at their intended ranges, which only gets better with the improved range bonus. Up close, the range bonus is wasted and lasers have poor enough tracking already that I doubt it will make a difference.

Amarr not having a battleship with 8 low slots - while Gallente does - strikes me as something that shouldn't be okay.

A range bonus to neutralizers strikes me as fairly useless. 25km range on heavy neuts seems like plenty and there doesn't seem like a lot of use for a ~40km range heavy neut attached to something with a battleship's lock speed.

Also, I liked the way the Geddon looked with the 7 turrets :(
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#820 - 2013-04-11 05:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
Naso Aya wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:
Snip



Just like to point out, if Tachyons were even possible to fit on an Amarr ship, it'd be nice. There's a difference between "hard to fit" and "impossible". It requires 15% extra powergrid to fit the Tachyons on an Abaddon, and two in order to get anything resembling a buffer. The situation on an Apoc would be even worse, yet an oracle can fit a full rack without any issues at all. It seems rather strange.


Exactly my point. Tachyons can be fitted onto an Abaddon or an Apocalypse, but at the cost of some tank or damage mods, because they are an oversized gun, are not supposed to be the default long-range weapon for all circumstances. That role is filled by Mega Beams. If Tachyons could be fit onto those hulls without fitting mods, they would wholly outclass Mega Beams.

If 1400mm artillery is supposed to be an oversized turret along the lines of Tachyons, then its fitting requirements should be raised so that they cannot be fit onto the Maesltrom and Tempest so easily. I am leaning more towards this approach, since the relationship between 1200mm and 1400mm artillery is more akin to Mega Beams and Tachyons; 1200mm and 1400mm artillery deal similar dps, but 1400mm artillery has superior range and alpha.

The Oracle is a specialized sniper platform, and even it has to sacrifice a good chunk of tank to fit a full rack of Tachyons .The lack of tank doesn't matter as much for an Oracle because it's not supposed to be able to tank.


But you also used neutron blasters as an example of oversized system; while the mega ends up sacrificing tank, it can still FIT the guns on without requiring any powergrid moduals. Just to fit prop, armor, etc, it'll need extra.

EDIT: Hell, I don't know how many people do it, but the hype fits on a full rack of tech II neutron blasters with 4.7k powergrid leftover!


I was somewhat wrong on the Neutron blasters as an example. The original fitting requirements for hybrids matched the paradigm I laid out, but CCP substantially reduced their fitting requirements, instead of increasing their damage output. So now Neutrons are the default blaster, requiring some sacrifice in tank to fit; Ions are for when full-****** tank is required, and I'm not sure there's any reason to use Electrons. It may be best if CCP does not make Mega Beams obsolete by reducing Tachyon fitting requirements in the same manner.

I think the problem may be with the other weapons being too easy to fit, not with Tachyons being too difficult. As well, there should be some downsides, since a Tachyon Abaddon, even with no damage mods, can deal around 520dps from 33+25km. A Hyperion, in comparison, hits for 590dps at 4.5+13km. That's why long-range weapons in general have higher fitting requirements than their short-range counterparts.
3