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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#221 - 2011-10-31 17:54:29 UTC
Prepare for ******** glory!!!

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

Celebris Nexterra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2011-10-31 17:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Celebris Nexterra
Only thing left is to make it so that when a ship is faster than a drone('s orbiting speed), THE DRONE WILL ACTUALLY GO ITS FULL SPEED THE WHOLE TIME.

Do you see car chases where the chaser is a Ferrari and the chasee is a Prius and the Ferrari just presses the gas OCCASIONALLY???

**Edited for clarity.
Sylviria
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2011-10-31 17:58:29 UTC
I am still not sure about the fitting requirements.
And then especcially about the CPU need.
We all know that PG & CPU both were an issue with fitting.
There is a -12% PG need, so that's a solved problem, which is pretty nice already.

But, then you look at the cpu need.
Let's say, we stick with the Tier 3 snipers BS's.

Maelstrom with T2 1400's and a proper fit: can't fit it due to PG needs. But with a Ancillarry Router in there if fits. Great!
Abaddon with T2 1400's (since it's used a lot nowadays), exactly the same problem.

Hyperion with T2 425's.
Now, that's were the problems start.
If you want to get a proper fit for it, you still lack a lot of CPU.
The base need of the T2 425's is 77 CPU. After the patch that would be 74 CPU.

Let's say you've got Weapon Upgrades 5. That's a -25% CPU need.
T2 425's before the patch: 57.75 CPU
T2 425's after the patch: 55.5 CPU

So that's just 2.25 CPU less. With 8 rails fitted it's a total off 18 CPU.
Still won't be able to fit a full rack of 425's then + proper fit.

Alright, the Strom & Baddon can't fit a full rack aswell without putting a rig on there.
But that's a POWERGRID rig! And the Hyperion has a CPU problem!
But there is no increase CPU output rig AT-ALL in the game.

So instead of elliminating a problem, you just make the problem, well, a bit less.
So reduce the CPU need more of add a CPU rig ingame.
Personally, i'd say the rig. So then all the Tier 3 BS's need a rig to fit 8 guns with a proper fit supporting it.
Vrykolakasis
Sparrowhawks Corp
#224 - 2011-10-31 17:58:36 UTC
This does seem to make Rokh/Hyperion fits available that weren't before, which I'm happy about. I like the ammo improvements. I think it's wise to take the changes slowly to avoid OP-ing anything. Don't stop if improvements can still be made, though.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#225 - 2011-10-31 17:59:27 UTC
Garbad theWeak wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Garbad theWeak wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Garbad theWeak wrote:

- hybrid snipers are once again top in the game. At 200k, they outperform even lasers, and shockingly, caldari are the best. I think hybrids are officially fixed. You can debate if armor snipers are still better, but its competitive, especially the naga. They also should easily outrange pulses now.


First off, 200km sniping is a dinosaur strategy for obvious reasons. The fact they "easily out-range," a short-range weapon system shouldn't be an issue. In what way does this "fix," rails? Why would you choose to abandon a mael for a rokh because of these changes? Would you ever think that an eagle was a better choice than a zealot for sniper hac in light of these changes? If your answer is "yes," to either of those you either know something Tallest isn't telling us, or you're completely off-base.
Obviously, but if things change caldari hybrids are now the kings of 200k+ sniping. And that's it. For 100k sniperhacs, eagle is still the worst (lowest dps, EM hole, superfluous range). For 150k BS, maels still dominate. For brawlers, both nanopest and hellcat still dominate hybrid platforms.


Thanks for making my point. 200km sniping is not a niche worth having on any ship. Rails, hybrids in general, are in no way "top in the game," due to the listed changes. In-fact they're all still sub-par to their laser and especially projectile alternatives.

Are you changing your mind or just insisting that 200km snipers are better than we all know them to be?
You think we are arguing, but we are saying the same things -- even with the buffs, hybrids are by far the worst. Blasters are inferior to auto/pulse in all situations, rails are inferior to beam/arty in all situations except 200k+ sniping, which is useless thanks to probers.

The hybrid changes are not enough to fix the problem. Not even close.


Sorry, my sarcasm detector must have been offline.
Reva Shakar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#226 - 2011-10-31 18:00:01 UTC
Quote:
Hybrid turret ships
While I am hesitant to boost individual ships right now,

Well when you do get to individual ships I would suggest starting with the Eagle.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#227 - 2011-10-31 18:00:44 UTC
Hybrids need to be buffed (or projectiles nerfed) to the point where a Caldari ship is better off with hybrids than projectiles.

So, Caldari turret ships users (all 10 of you), does this buff make you want to swap out your projectiles for hybrids?

EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#228 - 2011-10-31 18:01:06 UTC
All of these changes are very interesting! Very happy that close range t2 ammo has been addressed, along with blasters.

The biggest concern I have is that because railguns are supposed to be long-range, average damage weapons, they won't be able to excel at their primary goal because it is relatively simple to get on top of a ship that is sniping at long range (150km+) due to probing and warping mechanics.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#229 - 2011-10-31 18:02:05 UTC
Jeffrey Powel wrote:
carmelos53 wrote:

The proteus in particular is difficult to fit so once these changes hit maybe take another look at mega hulls, bc hulls, t3 and assault ships??


Proteus difficult to fit? lol?


Yea I usually have a noticeable amount of PG (not to mention CPU) left and always feel dirty or like I've done something wrong... who knows, maybe I have?
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#230 - 2011-10-31 18:04:43 UTC
Reva Shakar wrote:
Quote:
Hybrid turret ships
While I am hesitant to boost individual ships right now,

Well when you do get to individual ships I would suggest starting with the Eagle.


Agreed.

X Gallentius wrote:
Hybrids need to be buffed (or projectiles nerfed) to the point where a Caldari ship is better off with hybrids than projectiles.

So, Caldari turret ships users (all 10 of you), does this buff make you want to swap out your projectiles for hybrids?



I think the better question is: Will those caldari hybid ship pilots be any more or less a waste of space after replacing their AC's with Blasters or Rails. The answer is quite obivously, "no."
Garbad theWeak
#231 - 2011-10-31 18:05:08 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Sorry, my sarcasm detector must have been offline.
I can think of only one ship that the new Hybrids make effective: naga. A sniperhac style naga can now do ~450 dps between 70-120k while still being reasonably fast (~1600), cap stable, and having good tank (~45k, ~240 res). I can see these ships actually working.

But everything else hybrid related still seems like crap.
Steve4c
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2011-10-31 18:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve4c
I appreciate that Gallente ships are being looked into and hyrbid wepons are getting a long awaited fix.

I am an almost a pure gallente pilot

I see issues, with the current proposal.

Blasters: Optimal range (needs the buff)

Rails: are useable as they are now.

Powergrid usesage change on hyrbids = good


stop trying to compensate gallente ships and address the real issue here.

Blasters optimal & falloff is riddiculously weak!

For Instance Incursions, even with officer/faction fits - optimal is less than 15k, for a gallente ship to get in this range, you address that with a speed boost?

Flagship pirate faction Battleships:

Vindicator vs Machariel: you could give 100% bonus to Vindicator speed and it will not catch a Microwarpdrive mach, period.

A faster ship requires more tracking speed to actually hit at a faster velocity

how do battleships address that issue they sit there and wait for ships to come in range, mach can sit there no issues to range and just alpha/volley.

Vindicator starts moving to get in range it looses tracking can't hit until in optimal+falloff range, then still has to wait far longer than any other battleship before it can lay any dps.

Even with an Oneiros giving a optimal range boost and having fitted a t2 optimal rig ( I still can't get within a decent range to do the effective dps)

Vindicator vs Nightmare
When sansha get within optimal range of vindi (ooooh ammo runs out and needs changing) meanwhile Ammar ships still firing away and can instant swap crystals, have free cargo space -useful for lyavite etc. ( can go on running sites for longer without having to leave fleet to restock).

Yes Ammar ships doing better dps, have the best resists and armor, less ammo cost in use and above all can hit 60k+ no lag issues as everyone knows with lazer pew pew.

(logi giving either bonus of tracking speed, optimal or cap or no bonus at all will still allow a nightmare to be more effective, than its gallente Pirate faction equivalent -(Megathron based hull-hybrid wepon system)

So CCP's intentions of giving Gallente a marginal speed boost to compensate, feels like a kick in the teeth.

T3 ships Incursion:

1st: Legion (best ship for vangaurds- quickest isk grinded in Incursions)
2nd: Loki
3rd: Tengu
4th: Proteus

Proteus can't get within optimal range quick enough to do dps before the other dps have already blown up Sansha.

These days a megathron and navy mega are not deemed fit enough to compete in contested sites, therefore unlikely to be accepted to fleets. The same is beginning for the standard faction counterparts.

Marauders:

1st:Paladin
2nd:Golem
3rd:Kronos
4th:Vargur

Most people are fully aware of all of the above ships capabilities for Incursions ( which are a very popular form of end game pve in Hi sec, isk making)


Now I need address Hyrbrid turrents in Wormholes:

My Wormhole corp buddies are being very patient with me, they can see no gallente ships are fit for anything above a c3 anom.

guess what the main issue is: Optimal again
then power grid. So just 1x large active repper can be fitted, that also means not enough powergrid to fit out all of the Hyrbid turrets:

In order of preference:

Drones are primary for sleepers (not cost effective)
c3 anom:
1st: tengu
2nd: legion
3rd: loki
4th: proteus

Even Gallentes favoured pve ship ishtar, will not likely use hyrbrid.

drone boats: becoming out fo favour
then boils down to optimal not speed on gallente hybrids....

Please do not work around the issue by Increasing damage, speed, tracking,(powergrid- this buff still needed)

Address 'OPTIMAL'

Have a hot coffee guys/gals at CCP and think this through...

* 1 fix - Address the actual issue of hybrids: Optimal

* lots of fixes - working around the actual problem, can cause even more imbalances that need later rectifying.

I hope there is enough valid points here to verify my opinion:

Starting to look like I need to Cross train for legion/Nightmare for Incursions and accept Gallente was a mistake

For wormhole life doing solo anoms, Tengu/Golem/Paladin/legion many except for gallente ships fail at grinding these sites:

Getting to the stage where i think a Thanatos is my only option for solo anoms in wormholes c3 & above, lots more risk/cost...

(PVP)
Minmatar Loki/Machariel, if you can fly these ships with t2 gun skills would you use the Gallente equivalent, i think not.

my thoughts on picking Gallente as faction: lets just rage quit and spend all my grinded isk on Blink ( 500+ bil later am broke)

Being offered 2 bil in the Eve char bazzar for this char with 7 bil+ implants goes to show what players think of Gallente pilots, you can't even sell your char for a reasonable amount.

looks Like nyx or nothing if you are gallente.. no one wants your char - your doomed to be a hulk miner with low skills otherwise, then you might get enough isk for another faction character!

This is all beacuse of Hybrid turrets optimal range.

Buffs and nerfs to factions cause tears to those factions not having any:

1 fix ( balance optimal), this helps address a fraction of the super nerf to drone boats in Eve's early days...
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#233 - 2011-10-31 18:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
X Gallentius wrote:
Hybrids need to be buffed (or projectiles nerfed) to the point where a Caldari ship is better off with hybrids than projectiles.

So, Caldari turret ships users (all 10 of you), does this buff make you want to swap out your projectiles for hybrids?



well, let's see

small rails... less DPS than AC
med rails... woo I can fit all turrets on an eagle now but it's still slow (no agility boost?)
large rails... hey can hit harder at 200km for the 3 seconds before the arty fleet lands in optimal under me. Since I'm a slow, lumbering rokh with crap agility I'm not able to warp off.

nah, I'll stick with my min/amarr char for most of my PvP.


But the big thing is, To get into web range and blaster optimal means getting into scram range which in turn means no MWD. So all canes and maels have to do is stay at longer range and kite. Loki with web bonuses means there's no way a blaster boat will catch up.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Insane Randomness
Stellar Pilgrimage
#234 - 2011-10-31 18:09:35 UTC
So people seem to be missreading this, so I'll elaborate. This is the boost to JUST the weapons and ammo. They decided t start giving us the buff's to these GUNS first, not the ships. Stay tuned for hybrid starship balancing, as well, hopefully.

Too those whom say "The speed boost isn't enough" let me elaborate on this as well. The Gallente are friends wityh the matari, and as such, their ships tend to have a decent speed next to amarrian or caldari ships. This is for a reason. A +10 m/s boost too speed translates to an extra 25 m/s with decent skills in afterburner, and an extra 250m/s with an MWD. Those whom say that there should have not been a boost too speed because of tracking are daft. Since when, in pvp, do you leave your MWD on all the time? I was under the impression that you use an afterburner all the time, at which point your new guns will certainly be able to track, or plus your mwd to get within range and then pound the **** out of them.

Finally, too the dude whom said the eagle is useless because at long range it's DPS is low. No dip sherlock, at long range, every weapons DPS is going to be low, except for cruise missiles, whom I could get off three volleies and warp out before it hits me. The railgun has the second longest range in game, next too cruise missiles, and as such, will have one of the lowest DPS at range. Try useing shorter range, 160km is a bit too much. 100km will do you good, and if you focus on your skills and fittings I'll bet you could double your firepower. If not you could at least hit 350. and if you wanted to go short range, with an eagle I'll bet 30km and 450 DPS is possible now.

I believe that this is good for the hybrid turret ships whom were fine the way they are, if not for the lack of power inthe guns, IE Megathron, Dominix, Brutix, Thorax, Incursus.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#235 - 2011-10-31 18:12:05 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Ager Agemo wrote:
hey come to look at it... what about VOID ammo ? its a short range ammo and still has a stupid tracking penalty

I think void is intended for larger targets where tracking doesn't matter. Your smaller ship uses void to lay the wood to a larger one, for example.

Also, null ammo opt+falloff increase should be increased to match range increases for lasers and hybrids (37-40%), or tracking penalty for null should be removed if you want to keep Gallente T2 ammo gimped in range.
Xenial Jesse Taalo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2011-10-31 18:12:08 UTC
Not much of a hybrids buff really when they go and buff T2 rockets, missiles and Hail at the same time.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#237 - 2011-10-31 18:13:35 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
I thought this was suppose hybrid rebalance not a projectile buff.



While hybrids are being buffed, somehow projectiles are getting even more fotom than ever.

I don't understand why since they already work perfectly in any situation a lot better than hybrids and the choice between hybrids/projectiles will still remain: projectiles.

But hybrids are buffed with those changes that's a fact. It will not be enough, and that is a fact also.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#238 - 2011-10-31 18:14:00 UTC
nice changes, but you need to go further and increase the 'on-grid' warp range and increase the max lock range, give us back our railguns!!

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

TL Castiel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2011-10-31 18:14:19 UTC
Hybrid will still suck!

Hybrid might be a little bit better for PVP but not because of the hybrid boost but because of the hybrid platform boosts (ships).

I have created a little image here to demonstrate what I mean:
Currently the DPS output on the Marauders are as follows for PvE:

http://i43.tinypic.com/s4xwmb.jpg

Kronos: Green
Vargur: Red
Paladin: Blue
Golem: Light blue


Add an Extra 10% to hybrid DPS output with Javelin (yes, t2 ammo) and you will soon realize that OMG, Railguns will never be as useful as a torp Golem, Mega Pulse paladin, AC Vargur! That 10% will mean that the DPS output of the Rails are: 487 not 443.
I believe that Cruise Missile Ravens or CNRs or golems do as much damage as a beloved Railgun fitted Kronos. AWESOME!

What if you swap the Javelin (which will give 25% tracking bonus to Rails) to Navy AM? Well, the curves will change around a bit, the intersections will be different, but at the end of the day to targets - that are closer than 35 km - rails will do significantly less damage output:
Say at 20km:
Quote:
Kronos/Paladin/Vargur/Golem /w t1 torp
685 / 755 / 806 / 816


One more thing:
I used 2 Faction MFS on a kronos where we all know there are situations where 5 lowslots are just not enough to tank the mission. So for those missions the 685 drops to 513 whereas all the other ships can afford either to have 2 lows sacrificed for DPS or even all of them. (vargur/golem)

Quote:
Railguns should do average damage at long range.

How is that average compared to other platforms at say 100km? Check the graphs out, look at the numbers.. You are right, with t2 ammo, Rails almost hit as much as other platforms but not quite yet.
Q: Have you ever seen anyone use Hybrids for Sniping? Isn't alpha worth more than DPS for sniping? Rails = low alpha.

After all: Railguns are still not usable well enough
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#240 - 2011-10-31 18:15:06 UTC
Insane Randomness wrote:
So people seem to be missreading this, so I'll elaborate. This is the boost to JUST the weapons and ammo. They decided t start giving us the buff's to these GUNS first, not the ships. Stay tuned for hybrid starship balancing, as well, hopefully.


The "lay back and take it," defense is tired, old, and needs to be put away.

Insane Randomness wrote:

Too those whom say "The speed boost isn't enough" let me elaborate on this as well. The Gallente are friends wityh the matari, and as such, their ships tend to have a decent speed next to amarrian or caldari ships. This is for a reason. A +10 m/s boost too speed translates to an extra 25 m/s with decent skills in afterburner, and an extra 250m/s with an MWD. Those whom say that there should have not been a boost too speed because of tracking are daft. Since when, in pvp, do you leave your MWD on all the time? I was under the impression that you use an afterburner all the time, at which point your new guns will certainly be able to track, or plus your mwd to get within range and then pound the **** out of them.


lol

Insane Randomness wrote:

Finally, too the dude whom said the eagle is useless because at long range it's DPS is low. No dip sherlock, at long range, every weapons DPS is going to be low, except for cruise missiles, whom I could get off three volleies and warp out before it hits me. The railgun has the second longest range in game, next too cruise missiles, and as such, will have one of the lowest DPS at range. Try useing shorter range, 160km is a bit too much. 100km will do you good, and if you focus on your skills and fittings I'll bet you could double your firepower. If not you could at least hit 350. and if you wanted to go short range, with an eagle I'll bet 30km and 450 DPS is possible now.


I guess you don't have any experience sniping at that range or you've never seen a covert ops pilot worth a ****.

Insane Randomness wrote:

I believe that this is good for the hybrid turret ships whom were fine the way they are, if not for the lack of power inthe guns, IE Megathron, Dominix, Brutix, Thorax, Incursus.


You must not fly any of them then, I take it?