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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#181 - 2013-04-09 15:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
I fear that racial traits are being scrubbed away in the name of balancing. No one is really saying that the ship changes being purposed makes these ships non-viable. But they really don't feel very minmatar either. Perhaps one day we will all be flying the same ship but with different colors and shapes to chose from. *shrugs*

It would explain why this thread hasn't seen any Dev replies. From their point of view they are happy with the balancing results, and we really can't say they aren't balanced. The main complaints in this thread are about how the ships feel.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#182 - 2013-04-09 15:12:35 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:
No one is really saying that the ship changes being purposed makes these ships non-viable.


Yes, they certainly are. Although as you say the Typhoon is having its unique minmatar flavour wiped away and essentially being turned into an armored raven, it would still be a useful ship for sure.

But that is not the case with the Tempest. I can't see any useful role for it now which either another ships, or simply the maelstrom would perform much better.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#183 - 2013-04-09 15:25:32 UTC
I rather feel I have to join in the chorus of people declaring the Typhoon changes an overall nerf... I'm not going to exaggerate, it's not a huge nerf, but it IS a nerf. Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that a lot of people flew it with all 8 highs fitted with weapons. I know I do; leave neuting to the Dominixes. With the loss of the turrets and the gain of one more launcher, this gives it a more streamlined and clearly defined role and boosts its missile DPS output somewhat, though its versatility is reduced a little bit and overall its DPS is decreased.

This would all be perfectly fine, but adding to this a rather gaudy nerf to drone capabilities, losing 25 band and 75 bay, turns the change from a tolerable adjustment into a definite nerf.

I for one don't know what is so wrong about a non-drone-bonused ship with a full drone complement. I don't want to see the Typhoon relegated from a staple damage dealer to a glorified Armor Raven.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2013-04-09 15:28:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
IF and this is a BIG IF>>> IF THEY REALLY NEED to make the typhoon easier to fly

and require a bit less SP they coudl make the following

7 highs 6 launchers 6 projectiles
7.5% torpedo rof
7.5% projectile rof
old 125/175 drones



Ok now you can decide what of the 2 weapons you want to use and not care much on the other.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#185 - 2013-04-09 15:36:53 UTC
CCP Rise there's only 45 difference in sig radius between the phoon and the brutix any particular reason?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2013-04-09 15:40:13 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
CCP Rise there's only 45 difference in sig radius between the phoon and the brutix any particular reason?



That is normal. That is minmatar or should be style they larger class ship are only slightly larger than the other races smaller class ships. But they shoudl pay with Hit points. But ccp is tryign to remove all races differences! In fact thyey NERFED minmatar sig .



Tempest should also have low signature and the ships should pay that with less EHP.


I just fear that we wil have to post a lot of garbage in this thread to achieve 40 pages and get same attention as the gallente one had. Even this thread being MUCH more one sided towards "WE HATE THE CHANGES"than the minmatar thread.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#187 - 2013-04-09 15:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
seems odd that the phoon has 7 lows but is a shield tanker..... i would suggest you minus 500 shield add 1300 armour and reduce its mass down to about 95,500,000kg.

And do a similar mass on the mega say 94,000,000kg
and Apoc to about 96,500,000kg and raven about the same

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Alek Row
Silent Step
#188 - 2013-04-09 15:44:15 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:
I fear that racial traits are being scrubbed away in the name of balancing.


Yep, it seems that the lack of replies is "normal" for a thread with so few posts when compared to others.
(It also leads to concerns in how they are interpreting their so many ship statistics).

But that exact issue as been discusses in LOT'S of threads, and there are ZERO ccp responses about those concerns.
This Typhoon was expected to be honest, just look at the past Cyclone.

The Tempest is 'in line' with what they are doing to the Minmatar race traits lately.
The 10 years "survivor"... I think you finally killed it, gratz.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#189 - 2013-04-09 15:48:40 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Krell Kroenen wrote:
No one is really saying that the ship changes being purposed makes these ships non-viable.


Yes, they certainly are. Although as you say the Typhoon is having its unique minmatar flavour wiped away and essentially being turned into an armored raven, it would still be a useful ship for sure.

But that is not the case with the Tempest. I can't see any useful role for it now which either another ships, or simply the maelstrom would perform much better.


I will confess that I haven't used any of my Tempests in some time. Especially after the Teir 3 BC's came out. And you make a good point that the proposed changes most likely won't change that. What stood out to me about it was that it was gaining sig and some hit points. Which isn't very matar like. But because the ship was already pretty much retired for my uses and the changes didn't inspire me to reconsider that status, I failed to really look at it further.

For that I apologize.

Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#190 - 2013-04-09 15:48:48 UTC
I just hope that CCP Rise will act in the face of such overwhelming negativity. Sure you would expect some negative responses, but it is difficult to find anyone with a positive response to these proposals.

And I have yet to hear what exactly the new role of the Tempest will be, because from what I can tell, no one will use it.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2013-04-09 15:53:01 UTC
We have been tryign to brign up the lack of tempest role for years. Back when projectiels were changed.. there already was a tempest need to be changed thread with more than 60 pages, for months. And it stood growing up to 130 + pages. And yet.. all was ignored trough all these years. And now that they finnaly had a chance.. they decide to not only ignore tempest. But NERF it hard!

Yes 80 extra signature diminishes the survivability WAY more than 1500 armor increases. And the PG boost is almost useless. Not needed on AC fit and changes NOTHIGN on how to fit with arties ( you still need the RC II for use the MWD anyway or the MJD). So its a FAKE buff and a NERF .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#192 - 2013-04-09 15:55:51 UTC
The way I saw it was that the low signature was pretty much the only thing the Tempest had going for it. At the moment it is a bit of a jack of all trades, and master of none when it comes to its slot layout. I quite like this approach but it needs something extra such as a low sig to make it work. With a lot of the other BSs now encroaching on its previous roles, and massive sig bloom, I am confident that if these changes go ahead then it will definitely kill the small niche roles it has found itself thus far.
Phee Phi PhoPhum
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#193 - 2013-04-09 15:56:13 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!

Typhoon:


Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 0 turrets(-5) , 6 launchers(+1)




Please stop with the missile boat mania!! You've already turned the Bellicose and Cyclones into Caldari boats.

Minnie ships are meant to have projectile weapons on them.





CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#194 - 2013-04-09 16:00:00 UTC
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)

@ccp_rise
Shrrrg
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#195 - 2013-04-09 16:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Shrrrg
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
seems odd that the phoon has 7 lows but is a shield tanker..... i would suggest you minus 500 shield add 1300 armour and reduce its mass down to about 95,500,000kg.

And do a similar mass on the mega say 94,000,000kg
and Apoc to about 96,500,000kg and raven about the same

what? since when is the phoon a shield tanker? It can at the moment be tanked on shield and armour and in the future both tankvariants will be possible.

That said I dont like the new Phoon. Yes it will still be a good ship maybe even better than before but it loses a lot of that "swiss army knife" feeling. At the moment a phoon can be either tanked on shield(not very good but it can work) or on armour. It can either use torps or autocannons as main weapons and can use the other as support or can use the rest highslots to either use neuts or remote rep.

After those changes this variability isnt given anymore.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#196 - 2013-04-09 16:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
CCP Rise wrote:

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.


Great! That is really good to hear. If sig can be bought back down to current Tempest levels, even if a HP nerf is necessary, then I am sure it can still find a niche role.

I think having two attack BSs in the minmatar lineup would be a nice break from the current tiericide treatment also. Confidence has been restored, thanks for listening to the proposals on the Tempest.

Now just need to address the typhoon drone bay nerf in my opinion and things are looking very good once again.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#197 - 2013-04-09 16:07:41 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)


Really the phoon comparison is a surprise?............ and its also clearly a shield tanker according to its higher shield HP than armour HP despite the odd slot layout as plating it will kill its speed and these attack battleships aren't nearly as fast and agile as you seem to think..
Make the pest a heavy armour tanker

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#198 - 2013-04-09 16:12:47 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

Really the phoon comparison is a surprise?............ and its also clearly a shield tanker according to its higher shield HP than armour HP despite the odd slot layout as plating it will kill its speed and these attack battleships aren't nearly as fast and agile as you seem to think..
Make the pest a heavy armour tanker


I don't know how you managed to come to this conclusion. Typhoon is quite clearly an armour tanker, and the Tempest is quite clearly a dual tank. I wouldn't want to see this changed personally, I like the option to be able to dual tank.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#199 - 2013-04-09 16:13:12 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.
Thank you CCP Rise! Two Attack BS's is very Minmatar, and giving the Tempest its speed and agility back is the way to go. Thanks for listening to my fellow Minmatar pilots Big smile
Legault Revan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2013-04-09 16:14:40 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

I think having two attack BSs in the minmatar lineup would be a nice break from the current tiericide treatment also. Confidence has been restored, thanks for listening to the proposals on the Tempest.

Now just need to address the typhoon drone bay nerf in my opinion and things are looking very good once again.


Kind of fits the Minmatar "all guns blazing" idea I've always had. Two attack BS's in the Minmatar lineup is a great idea.

On drones: drone bays should be larger than bandwidth as a general rule, I think. It allows for versatility. Also, no battleship should be stuck with 50mb of bandwidth. It's a battleship, not a battlecruiser.