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What does the Phantasm even do?

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Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#221 - 2013-03-21 02:45:46 UTC
Lenier Chenal wrote:


You always armor tank Machs, because you can use implants and links to make it go stupid fast still. You have awesome tank. You can also barely armor tank it and use armor implants, keeps it fast still.

Of course it can be armour tanked, or shield tanked, my point was that as a solo ship without the fleet boost or implant boosts, is it really so incredible that it needs changed to make it less incredible. For that matter if you throw 4 to 6 billion in a ship, any ship, is it going to suck. And if you don't throw a few billion into a Mach does it shine so much more that any other ship.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#222 - 2013-03-21 03:05:36 UTC
Keep in mind when you fight machs in PvP they probably have snakes, quafe zero, and loki boosters. Aswell as skill and experience.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#223 - 2013-03-22 23:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucine Delacourt
Goldiiee wrote:




I think the issue is more that the Mach is OP compared to the other pirate BS's (outside of very few specific situations) and less that it is OP in general. Realistically Pirate BS's/Marauders should be the best subcap ships. Unfortunately as it stands, Angel ships tend to be a bit better than their Gurista/Serpentis/BloodRaider counterparts and a fair sight better than the Sansha ships.


I am fine with buffing the other pirate ships instead of nerfing the Angel ships, as you suggested earlier but I think it is pretty clear that something one way or the other should be done.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#224 - 2013-03-22 23:42:52 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:




I think the issue is more that the Mach is OP compared to the other pirate BS's (outside of very few specific situations) and less that it is OP in general. Realistically Pirate BS's/Marauders should be the best subcap ships. Unfortunately as it stands, Angel ships tend to be a bit better than their Gurista/Serpentis/BloodRaider counterparts and a fair sight better than the Sansha ships.


I am fine with buffing the other pirate ships instead of nerfing the Angel ships, as you suggested earlier but I think it is pretty clear that something one way or the other should be done.



How is the Mach more "OP" than a Bhaalgorn, or a vindicator?

They perform different roles, and they are the best at what they do. So I don't see how you'd even go about comparing them.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#225 - 2013-03-22 23:48:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Diesel47 wrote:

How is the Mach more "OP" than a Bhaalgorn, or a vindicator?

They perform different roles, and they are the best at what they do. So I don't see how you'd even go about comparing them.

This. The mach isn't OP, it's just good at its role. It will never come close to being the brawler that the vindi is, nor will it ever be the support beast that is the bhaal, or the piece of overtanked **** that is the rattlesnake..?

The reason people think the mach is OP is mostly that its niche is a rather large one, as hit and run pvp is one of the main ways to pewpew in this game, and because of how it flies it's worth risking more isk in it, since it's harder to catch and kill.

EDIT: Also please fix the phantasm CCP.

EDIT AGAIN: Some more cap and an extra turret would be nice.
Tilo Rhywald
Wilde Jagd
#226 - 2013-03-25 14:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tilo Rhywald
Din Tempre wrote:
I love the phantasm. Was my first faction cruiser and still have that exact ship despite many different adventures, including several solo sightseeing tours through various null.

I'm going to suggest something radical for sansha ships - MJD spool up speed and non-covert cloak speed bonuses (while still keeping their damage). They scream predator and giving them the ability to "pounce" would be a very unique flavor to bring to EVE, and still distinct from the recons which are a true ambush.


Aren't MJDs battleship-sized modules? I think the black-ops-style cloak speed bonus is interesting, but after some consideration I find the loss of 50% of the utility highs to make use of it rather not worthwhile. Two of them is really one of the stand-out characteristics of the sansha boats, and they're what (potentially!) makes them extremely viable solo options (currently only with astronomical sums of ISK).


Liang Nuren wrote:


Many of the same problems that apply to the Phantasm apply to the Nightmare/Mach conversation. I don't begrudge it overly much. I still contend that brawling laser ships (even with a tracking bonus and enough mids for a web) is a bad idea. I'd much rather see semi fast optimal bonused laser kiting ships. :)

-Liang


Maybe I missed it somewhere else or I'm just incapable of finding it... Would you be so kind to provide me with an explanation for this opinion? I'm earnestly interested, not trying to provoke - I'll always follow the best argument. :)

I've found that for example an AB-active-brawling Phantasm with two medium nosferatus (lol, I know... I'd much rather use two medium neuts, but the abysmal cap on this thing leaves me no choice) can work extremely well. However, crystals are a must, and that shouldn't be so. Hence I repeat my suggestion to make the Caldari bonus a shield resist bonus. That makes much more sense anyway than a laser damage bonus from a storyline perspective aswell as that would be a "typical" Caldari bonus. I'm against an active shield bonus as it limits you to one form of tanking, and for example the option of a kiting buffer beam Phantasm or something should still be open.

Once more about the role: What would be unique about the Phantasm if it became a Zealot with a better shield tank and a lot less damage if nano'd or a Vagabond with lasers? I believe there are enough very good cruiser-sized kiting setups. Also... what use are two med neuts if you're constantly fighting outside their effective range (yes, combating tacklers etc., but I'm a fan of applying the power of all my mods on one opponent, and not having to waste pg/cpu for mere "back-up"-mods). With web/scram and an AB the Phantasm is capable of dictating range within brawling (scramming) distance to make effective use of the relatively long laser optimal and certain utility highslot options - at least once its base speed has been brought up to at least t1 cruiser level. -.-

To sum up my suggestions again:

- better cap (20%?)

- more speed (at least comparable to rebalanced t1)

- role bonus: 167% damage to medium energy turrets instead of 100% (equals an increase of about 6,7% in damage or 8 effective turrets versus currently 7,5)

- swap Caldari bonus from 5% damage to 5% shield resist bonus per level

- (a little more pg or an additional lowslot would be quite nice, but that might be op, so that's not to be prioritised)

Cheers,
Tilo R.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#227 - 2013-03-25 14:53:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Cambarus wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:

How is the Mach more "OP" than a Bhaalgorn, or a vindicator?

They perform different roles, and they are the best at what they do. So I don't see how you'd even go about comparing them.

This. The mach isn't OP, it's just good at its role. It will never come close to being the brawler that the vindi is, nor will it ever be the support beast that is the bhaal, or the piece of overtanked **** that is the rattlesnake..?

The reason people think the mach is OP is mostly that its niche is a rather large one, as hit and run pvp is one of the main ways to pewpew in this game, and because of how it flies it's worth risking more isk in it, since it's harder to catch and kill.

Good point. Fix TEs and you'll see how "OP" Machariel really is and what actually comes from one single OP module.

It still might be a little OP, but surely not that much as some people tend to believe.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#228 - 2013-03-25 16:38:02 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:

How is the Mach more "OP" than a Bhaalgorn, or a vindicator?

They perform different roles, and they are the best at what they do. So I don't see how you'd even go about comparing them.

This. The mach isn't OP, it's just good at its role. It will never come close to being the brawler that the vindi is, nor will it ever be the support beast that is the bhaal, or the piece of overtanked **** that is the rattlesnake..?

The reason people think the mach is OP is mostly that its niche is a rather large one, as hit and run pvp is one of the main ways to pewpew in this game, and because of how it flies it's worth risking more isk in it, since it's harder to catch and kill.

EDIT: Also please fix the phantasm CCP.

EDIT AGAIN: Some more cap and an extra turret would be nice.



Not sure what niche the NM really fits in but you guys are more or less right about the Bhaal, Vindi, Rattler and Mach. My issue(others may disagree) is that the Mach's "Niche" is far larger and more typical of the standard Eve experience. That and it is also the second best at all of the other Pirate BS's roles.

I happen to be in the group that is pulling for keeping the Angel shipline where it is and giving varying amounts of love to the other pirate hulls. The Vindi and Bhall need only the slightest nudge. The Rattler is barely better than the Gila rather than being a linear improvement. The Sansha ships are the weakest of the group and the Phantasm is the poster child for their plight.

Maybe using the term OP in my first post was overstating the discrepancy in hull quality. While they might not be OP, the Angel ships are the best of the group and the Phantasm specifically is bringing up the rear.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#229 - 2013-03-25 16:41:54 UTC
I bet the trend will continue with the noob ships, despite the sansha one having a utility slot

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#230 - 2013-03-25 17:31:49 UTC
Tilo Rhywald wrote:
Din Tempre wrote:
I love the phantasm. Was my first faction cruiser and still have that exact ship despite many different adventures, including several solo sightseeing tours through various null.

I'm going to suggest something radical for sansha ships - MJD spool up speed and non-covert cloak speed bonuses (while still keeping their damage). They scream predator and giving them the ability to "pounce" would be a very unique flavor to bring to EVE, and still distinct from the recons which are a true ambush.


Aren't MJDs battleship-sized modules? I think the black-ops-style cloak speed bonus is interesting, but after some consideration I find the loss of 50% of the utility highs to make use of it rather not worthwhile. Two of them is really one of the stand-out characteristics of the sansha boats, and they're what (potentially!) makes them extremely viable solo options (currently only with astronomical sums of ISK).


Liang Nuren wrote:


Many of the same problems that apply to the Phantasm apply to the Nightmare/Mach conversation. I don't begrudge it overly much. I still contend that brawling laser ships (even with a tracking bonus and enough mids for a web) is a bad idea. I'd much rather see semi fast optimal bonused laser kiting ships. :)

-Liang


Maybe I missed it somewhere else or I'm just incapable of finding it... Would you be so kind to provide me with an explanation for this opinion? I'm earnestly interested, not trying to provoke - I'll always follow the best argument. :)

I've found that for example an AB-active-brawling Phantasm with two medium nosferatus (lol, I know... I'd much rather use two medium neuts, but the abysmal cap on this thing leaves me no choice) can work extremely well. However, crystals are a must, and that shouldn't be so. Hence I repeat my suggestion to make the Caldari bonus a shield resist bonus. That makes much more sense anyway than a laser damage bonus from a storyline perspective aswell as that would be a "typical" Caldari bonus. I'm against an active shield bonus as it limits you to one form of tanking, and for example the option of a kiting buffer tachyon Phantasm or something should still be open.

Once more about the role: What would be unique about the Phantasm if it became a Zealot with a better shield tank and a lot less damage if nano'd or a Vagabond with lasers? I believe there are enough very good cruiser-sized kiting setups. Also... what use are two med neuts if you're constantly fighting outside their effective range (yes, combating tacklers etc., but I'm a fan of applying the power of all my mods on one opponent, and not having to waste pg/cpu for mere "back-up"-mods). With web/scram and an AB the Phantasm is capable of dictating range within brawling (scramming) distance to make effective use of the relatively long laser optimal and certain utility highslot options - at least once its base speed has been brought up to at least t1 cruiser level. -.-

To sum up my suggestions again:

- better cap (20%?)

- more speed (at least comparable to rebalanced t1)

- role bonus: 167% damage to medium energy turrets instead of 100% (equals an increase of about 6,7% in damage or 8 effective turrets versus currently 7,5)

- swap Caldari bonus from 5% damage to 5% shield resist bonus per level

- (a little more pg or an additional lowslot would be quite nice, but that might be op, so that's not to be prioritised)

Cheers,
Tilo R.


Sure, no problem. I made a long detailed post in the first couple of pages of this thread where this opinion was established.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Lord Fudo
Doomheim
#231 - 2013-03-25 19:21:30 UTC
As much as I love the Mach, i can see CCP nerfing it quite a bit. Most likely they will nerf its fitting in some way. I doubt they will reduce its speed since ACartel are naturally fast ships. They will probably bloat its sig radius. I could see them doing that to the Cynabal.
Tilo Rhywald
Wilde Jagd
#232 - 2013-03-25 19:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tilo Rhywald
Liang Nuren wrote:


Sure, no problem. I made a long detailed post in the first couple of pages of this thread where this opinion was established.

-Liang


Ah, I suppose you mean the following:

Liang Nuren wrote:
First, I think it needs to be said that medium pulse is not long range enough when compared to blasters and (especially) autocannons. A large part of the problem is that I naturally expect pulse lasers to be able to attack throughout a typical engagement range. FMP was conceived with a "natural" range of 20km and Heavy Pulse with a "natural" range of about 24km. Since that time, we've seen T2 points and overheat and the proliferation of skirmish links.

In a fairly typical small gang we can see engagement ranges stretch out to somewhere between 30km (overheated T2 point) and 45km (overheated T2 point, loki links). This makes "kiting" in a laser ship a dubious affair IMO. More importantly, it also removes the ability for lasers on the more painfully slow hulls to fight off kiting ships. If we were just talking about the longer ranged projectile ships like the Vagabond or optimal bonused ships like the Zealot I don't think this would matter as much as it does. However, we're facing the situation where blaster ships trivially outrange T2 point range - and medium pulse range.


But you're not talking about medium blasters here? Only Eagle, Ferox, Vulture and Vigilant can outreach T2 disruption range with heavy neutron blasters and null, and it's anything but trivial: You're already beyond falloff with most fittings. So in this regard heavy pulse lasers aren't outclassed, and when it comes to the tracking-bonused Phantasm, the heavy pulse lasers with scorch track only about 6% worse than heavy neutrons with null. That's not nearly enough of a distinction to say that the Phantasm can't brawl effectively. (only comparing to blasters atm, as they use cap and are chained to fixed damage tyoes aswell)

Liang Nuren wrote:

That is to say that conceptually I'd say lasers should both be the best kiting weapon (when mounted on an appropriate hull) and the best anti kiting weapon (when not). They should have fairly high DPS (which they do), be fairly weak up close (which they are), and restricted in damage type (which they are).


I can follow you here to some extent, but brawling doesn't neccessarily mean sitting at zero. Even within scram/brawling range, distance dictation does matter, obviously.

Liang Nuren wrote:

All of that said, I think the ship could be basically ok with 4 turrets (5 highs) and the equivalent of a LCB II stuffed into its pathetic capacitor. You might also want to nudge up the speed and agility on the ship because you only have 3 lows to stuff the requisite 2 HS, 2 TE, 2 Nano, DC into.

An optimal bonus would also help emphasize the kiting role over a brawling role - because let's just be honest: a brawling laser ship with like 10 capacitor in a land where every ship in the game has a "utility/anti-frig neut" fit is just ******* stupid.


I think we all agree that with its current capacitor even a single medium neut can pose a serious threat to a close-range active (cap-injected) Phantasm. But when we're talking about giving it a certain role, and hopefully buffing it in the process, the argument that the brawling role is generally "******* stupid" simply makes no sense. And since everybody does seem to consent that its speed/agility should be enhanced aswell, why not give it a set of boni that leave both options open to the fitting skills of the pilot (beam kiter, pulse brawler, e.g.). The tracking/resist-boni-combination might just achieve that.

As for the 4th turret... why? It'd pretty much negate any future buff to the capacitor, would gimp the powergrid (unless trading a T2 heavy pulse laser for a T2 medium neut), and would make it just yet another one of those "X turrets/launchers + 1 utility" hulls, which are so commonplace it's just annoying. Pirate faction ships are supposed to excel beyond T2 boats in their abilities (which include a range of viable fitting possibilites), not just in their ehp/dps-ratio. :)

Cheers,
Tilo R.
Din Tempre
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#233 - 2013-03-25 20:41:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Din Tempre
Tilo Rhywald wrote:
Din Tempre wrote:
I love the phantasm. Was my first faction cruiser and still have that exact ship despite many different adventures, including several solo sightseeing tours through various null.

I'm going to suggest something radical for sansha ships - MJD spool up speed and non-covert cloak speed bonuses (while still keeping their damage). They scream predator and giving them the ability to "pounce" would be a very unique flavor to bring to EVE, and still distinct from the recons which are a true ambush.


Aren't MJDs battleship-sized modules? I think the black-ops-style cloak speed bonus is interesting, but after some consideration I find the loss of 50% of the utility highs to make use of it rather not worthwhile. Two of them is really one of the stand-out characteristics of the sansha boats, and they're what (potentially!) makes them extremely viable solo options (currently only with astronomical sums of ISK).


True they only introduced the one module so far, but that can easily be remedied with a fitting bonus or giving us the other classes of MJD. As far as the two utility highs, what if they add the turret or launcher (or both) and the cloak bonus? Neuts are what people want to fit in utility highs 99% of the time, but those are a staple of the blood raiders, which is very synergistic with their lore. Sansha doesn't drain people, he comes from the shadows to enlighten them. A very dark illuminati vibe. Hence why I suggested playing up the ability to slip into and out of a fight. If the phantasm is supposed to be a brawler, the ability to jump from out of range to in their face is a very powerful ability. And if they successfully disengage, you will never find them again until they choose.

Sounds viable solo and in groups to me...

Furthermore, nothing is to say you would have to use the cloak after all. You'd still have 2 slots for unbonused neuts if you wanted to preserve that fitting style.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#234 - 2013-03-27 02:42:10 UTC
Well we can stop discussing the Mach in this thread now, the new and improved (proposed) tracking enhancers will ballance the Mach with the precision of a chainsaw pruning a rosebush.

Dropping falloff from 60km to 45km with two TE's II.

My math could be wrong anyone else checking this?

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#235 - 2013-03-27 17:51:07 UTC
The TE changes are interesting and I'm not sure how things will shake out. I'll need to play with it some.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#236 - 2013-03-27 17:59:08 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Well we can stop discussing the Mach in this thread now, the new and improved (proposed) tracking enhancers will ballance the Mach with the precision of a chainsaw pruning a rosebush.

Dropping falloff from 60km to 45km with two TE's II.

My math could be wrong anyone else checking this?

59 -> 50.7 actually.

36 is base falloff with 800s and no extra mods.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Tilo Rhywald
Wilde Jagd
#237 - 2013-03-28 15:20:52 UTC
Din Tempre wrote:
Tilo Rhywald wrote:

Aren't MJDs battleship-sized modules? I think the black-ops-style cloak speed bonus is interesting, but after some consideration I find the loss of 50% of the utility highs to make use of it rather not worthwhile. Two of them is really one of the stand-out characteristics of the sansha boats, and they're what (potentially!) makes them extremely viable solo options (currently only with astronomical sums of ISK).


True they only introduced the one module so far, but that can easily be remedied with a fitting bonus or giving us the other classes of MJD. As far as the two utility highs, what if they add the turret or launcher (or both) and the cloak bonus? Neuts are what people want to fit in utility highs 99% of the time, but those are a staple of the blood raiders, which is very synergistic with their lore. Sansha doesn't drain people, he comes from the shadows to enlighten them. A very dark illuminati vibe. Hence why I suggested playing up the ability to slip into and out of a fight. If the phantasm is supposed to be a brawler, the ability to jump from out of range to in their face is a very powerful ability. And if they successfully disengage, you will never find them again until they choose.

Sounds viable solo and in groups to me...

Furthermore, nothing is to say you would have to use the cloak after all. You'd still have 2 slots for unbonused neuts if you wanted to preserve that fitting style.


Yes, but then there'd be a bonus of which I would make no use, and I consider not using (all) the specific advantages of a certain ship to be a waste in all cases - even if it works somehow (shield-Hyperion for example). Otherwise, I really like the atmospheric connotation you describe as "illuminati vibe". =)
If a medium MJD should be introduced it would still hold some problems for solo brawlers... "successfully disengaging" with any lengthy cool-down is a problem (if you have a victim isolated and killed quickly while the blob is closing in on you), otherwise a single scram will ruin your day because you lack an afterburner; fitting double-prop damages the tank of your Phantasm greatly (if you don't want to drop the web) and you probably get pg/cpu issues. For the idea to work you really have to combine it with a cloak somehow, too. Otherwise I doubt people would say "I wonder why this Phantasm is moving to 100k..." and sit still. ;)

With such a complexity of things to consider it'd probably take CCP another few years to balance this ship, so I still stand by my earlier "conventional" propositions. Please excuse this slightly polemical argument. ;)

Cheers,
Tilo R.
Din Tempre
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#238 - 2013-03-28 20:49:32 UTC
Tilo Rhywald wrote:
Din Tempre wrote:
Tilo Rhywald wrote:

Aren't MJDs battleship-sized modules? I think the black-ops-style cloak speed bonus is interesting, but after some consideration I find the loss of 50% of the utility highs to make use of it rather not worthwhile. Two of them is really one of the stand-out characteristics of the sansha boats, and they're what (potentially!) makes them extremely viable solo options (currently only with astronomical sums of ISK).


True they only introduced the one module so far, but that can easily be remedied with a fitting bonus or giving us the other classes of MJD. As far as the two utility highs, what if they add the turret or launcher (or both) and the cloak bonus? Neuts are what people want to fit in utility highs 99% of the time, but those are a staple of the blood raiders, which is very synergistic with their lore. Sansha doesn't drain people, he comes from the shadows to enlighten them. A very dark illuminati vibe. Hence why I suggested playing up the ability to slip into and out of a fight. If the phantasm is supposed to be a brawler, the ability to jump from out of range to in their face is a very powerful ability. And if they successfully disengage, you will never find them again until they choose.

Sounds viable solo and in groups to me...

Furthermore, nothing is to say you would have to use the cloak after all. You'd still have 2 slots for unbonused neuts if you wanted to preserve that fitting style.


Yes, but then there'd be a bonus of which I would make no use, and I consider not using (all) the specific advantages of a certain ship to be a waste in all cases - even if it works somehow (shield-Hyperion for example). Otherwise, I really like the atmospheric connotation you describe as "illuminati vibe". =)
If a medium MJD should be introduced it would still hold some problems for solo brawlers... "successfully disengaging" with any lengthy cool-down is a problem (if you have a victim isolated and killed quickly while the blob is closing in on you), otherwise a single scram will ruin your day because you lack an afterburner; fitting double-prop damages the tank of your Phantasm greatly (if you don't want to drop the web) and you probably get pg/cpu issues. For the idea to work you really have to combine it with a cloak somehow, too. Otherwise I doubt people would say "I wonder why this Phantasm is moving to 100k..." and sit still. ;)

With such a complexity of things to consider it'd probably take CCP another few years to balance this ship, so I still stand by my earlier "conventional" propositions. Please excuse this slightly polemical argument. ;)

Cheers,
Tilo R.


Perhaps that's an issue with the function of the MJD itself more than the idea of the bonus. CCP has been experimenting with dual state mods lately... perhaps the mircojump costs isotopes but unloaded it functions somewhere between the afterburner and the MWD? Or the Phantasm bonus simply could be 20% base speed/level with the MJD equiped (would also work as a blackops style speed bonus under cloak with the same bonus). Sansha clearly has the best jump drive tech as evidence by the incursions; why not play up on that?
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#239 - 2013-03-28 22:42:02 UTC
They did for a sec with the supercarrier and there was some theory craft on the implications of a super that could go really far and ya..
I thought it was awsome but most didn't and it was change to what it is today but on gird shenanigans are a diff story. really it needs a little stat shifting and way more dps, it was that way back in the day and they just never caught up.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Tilo Rhywald
Wilde Jagd
#240 - 2013-03-29 20:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tilo Rhywald
Din Tempre wrote:
Tilo Rhywald wrote:
Din Tempre wrote:
Tilo Rhywald wrote:

Aren't MJDs battleship-sized modules? I think the black-ops-style cloak speed bonus is interesting, but after some consideration I find the loss of 50% of the utility highs to make use of it rather not worthwhile. Two of them is really one of the stand-out characteristics of the sansha boats, and they're what (potentially!) makes them extremely viable solo options (currently only with astronomical sums of ISK).


True they only introduced the one module so far, but that can easily be remedied with a fitting bonus or giving us the other classes of MJD. As far as the two utility highs, what if they add the turret or launcher (or both) and the cloak bonus? Neuts are what people want to fit in utility highs 99% of the time, but those are a staple of the blood raiders, which is very synergistic with their lore. Sansha doesn't drain people, he comes from the shadows to enlighten them. A very dark illuminati vibe. Hence why I suggested playing up the ability to slip into and out of a fight. If the phantasm is supposed to be a brawler, the ability to jump from out of range to in their face is a very powerful ability. And if they successfully disengage, you will never find them again until they choose.

Sounds viable solo and in groups to me...

Furthermore, nothing is to say you would have to use the cloak after all. You'd still have 2 slots for unbonused neuts if you wanted to preserve that fitting style.


Yes, but then there'd be a bonus of which I would make no use, and I consider not using (all) the specific advantages of a certain ship to be a waste in all cases - even if it works somehow (shield-Hyperion for example). Otherwise, I really like the atmospheric connotation you describe as "illuminati vibe". =)
If a medium MJD should be introduced it would still hold some problems for solo brawlers... "successfully disengaging" with any lengthy cool-down is a problem (if you have a victim isolated and killed quickly while the blob is closing in on you), otherwise a single scram will ruin your day because you lack an afterburner; fitting double-prop damages the tank of your Phantasm greatly (if you don't want to drop the web) and you probably get pg/cpu issues. For the idea to work you really have to combine it with a cloak somehow, too. Otherwise I doubt people would say "I wonder why this Phantasm is moving to 100k..." and sit still. ;)

With such a complexity of things to consider it'd probably take CCP another few years to balance this ship, so I still stand by my earlier "conventional" propositions. Please excuse this slightly polemical argument. ;)

Cheers,
Tilo R.


Perhaps that's an issue with the function of the MJD itself more than the idea of the bonus. CCP has been experimenting with dual state mods lately... perhaps the mircojump costs isotopes but unloaded it functions somewhere between the afterburner and the MWD? Or the Phantasm bonus simply could be 20% base speed/level with the MJD equiped (would also work as a blackops style speed bonus under cloak with the same bonus). Sansha clearly has the best jump drive tech as evidence by the incursions; why not play up on that?


Yes, that's a really nice and unique idea. A lot of things have to be implemented/introduced or changed though, and while I would see it as a possible task to be handled in an acceptable time frame myself, experience with CCP raises doubts, and I'd be mutch happier if the Phantasm received its much needed buff rather sooner than later... Two iterations maybe?
This "black-ops-on-grid-mjd-puncing-role" is a really creative approach I' find very interesting.