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[Odyssey] Module Rebalancing Part One: RSBs and TEs

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Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#501 - 2013-03-27 17:35:04 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:



So tl;dr: kiting is an extremely engaging, tricky, and fun style of gameplay, while brawling is simplistic, deterministic, and frustrating. And your recommendation is that they nerf the fun thing so its not as viable of an option. Because more people should do the annoying, frustrating thing instead?

Ok...


How very dramatic of you.

Its hilarious to watch your posting sperge about how they're removing kiting set ups when thats not even close to whats happening.

Do carry on though.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#502 - 2013-03-27 17:36:45 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Mariner6 wrote:


I hear you man...Like I said I'm a bit ambivalent but I can see the need to bring the two a bit closer vice being miles apart. And even with these changes, I don't think its kills kiting. It just won't be quite as lopsided as it is now. I mean to be honest, it needs to hit sisi and test it some. But of course I've noticed that rarely does anything get put into sisi and despite thousands of suggestions does it result in anything, you know like medium rails.


SiSi isn't for testing, its for familiarizing yourself with impending changes :\

Also most fighting on SiSi just isn't useful for evaluation unless you put together your own group of players for testing. Otherwise its just faggots sitting on the combat beacons with their faction battleships / gimmick fits waiting for you to engage them so they can warp in a a few carriers and kill you.


you do know there is more then CA1-3 right? try the others or a next door system if you want to test actual pvp.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#503 - 2013-03-27 17:38:11 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Mariner6 wrote:
@CCP Rise: Don't get frustrated. A lot of people are comfortable in what they know and have come to enjoy it. Change can be painful for anyone. Just pull the salient points when they are made. That said.....

So why kiting and thus all the complaints? I'm tracking on the frustration because having always been an armor brawler I recently have started trying it out because frankly I was getting tired of losing ships particularly when the gang is bigger, and if your armor you either win or lose. Rarely is there a GTFO option. And when roaming in Null its fun to be able to engage some groups even if they are bigger, particularly when your in a small corp. But the only way you can attack a big group is via kiting or very shiny ships, maybe bombs but you all get the point.

So I started flying this Omen that one of my Corps mates recommended, at first I was very skeptical as it has only hull tank 10K EHP, but goes 2500m/s and puts out 343 DPS at 29+8.2 with lolscorch (perfect skills, no implants, no boosts.)

[Omen, Man Tank]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Overdrive Injector System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I

Hornet EC-300 x5

And you know what's funny, this cruiser with the least tank I've flow has been the most survivable ship I've ever flow. Now I've been into structure nearly every fight but I've killed plenty with it, attacked a wide range of targets and sized groups, and amazingly this gets out of more "should have died" events than I can believe. Its absolutely a blast. So not as good as Cynabal mind you, but pretty damn cheap to fly so you don't care if you lose it. And I find you really have to work on your manual piloting, manage your cap, stay in tune to everything going on. So its fun and can be used over a broader envelope of engagements you might find where as in most of my armor boats I have to be more choosy about what fights I take or not.

So my point is that it makes some sense that CCP would want to tone this down some because it does seem a bit lop sided when an amarr kiting cruiser with zero tank outperforms an amarr armor cruiser for so many types of uses. Now that doesn't say there are not times and places where I still prefer armor depending on what your doing and what kind of fleet but for small gang work....well kiting is hard to beat.

Summary:
I guess the nerf is needed, but your going to get some tears CCP. I also think you'll need to take a look at ships now across the board that become now unbalanced due to this (ie the missle boats, definitely the Caracal) and maybe some gun boats that tend to kite will need a look at (like can they kill anything at all with lower dps defore they run out of CAP?) Even with the Nerf though, I guess my Favorite Omen will still be good.






So tl;dr: kiting is an extremely engaging, tricky, and fun style of gameplay, while brawling is simplistic, deterministic, and frustrating. And your recommendation is that they nerf the fun thing so its not as viable of an option. Because more people should do the annoying, frustrating thing instead?

Ok...


lawl! that's exactly how i read it.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#504 - 2013-03-27 17:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
Grath Telkin wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:


a 2 TE slicer for instance, at lvl 5 goes from 22+4.1 to 20+3.5. ask any slicer pilot, that's a big difference.

i don't know why it's hard for you to understand that sometimes a 2km change can make a bigger difference than a 5km change.


I am a slicer pilot, and I'm telling you that 2km doesn't really matter because its generally out of point range since most slicers are forced to fit a faint warp disruptor and fight right around 18km, give or take.

The 2km difference means nothing.


well that has all the makings of complete fabrication. it goes against my experience from fit to finish.

in all sincerity, would you care to share some of those mails in your t1 point slicer, unboosted, where you're not blobbing people to death?

i'd be genuinely interested.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#505 - 2013-03-27 17:41:20 UTC
dp sorry
BigSako
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2013-03-27 17:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: BigSako
1. I can absolutely see the point of remote sebos being nerfed (hopefully not below normal sebos), however, how about the ability to overheat sebos and remote sebos?

2. I can see the logic of changing TEs to move them somewhere inbetween scripted and unscripted tracking computer, however I am a bit unhappy with the change as it heavily nerfes smaller sniper doctrines (sniper-hacs, tier 3 snipers) for small gang warfare, as well as Cynabals / Vagabonds.
But I guess it does make sense as the Minmatar gunnery system does have a superior position.

3. Same as 1, but for tracking computer (remote tracking computer) - how about overheating them?
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#507 - 2013-03-27 17:49:00 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:



So tl;dr: kiting is an extremely engaging, tricky, and fun style of gameplay, while brawling is simplistic, deterministic, and frustrating. And your recommendation is that they nerf the fun thing so its not as viable of an option. Because more people should do the annoying, frustrating thing instead?

Ok...


How very dramatic of you.

Its hilarious to watch your posting sperge about how they're removing kiting set ups when thats not even close to whats happening.

Do carry on though.


I do bereave I said "makie it less viable" not "remove it."

Which is exactly what they're doing. But please, continue to call me dramatic.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#508 - 2013-03-27 17:53:38 UTC
So keeping range in a faster ship is "tricky", and trying to catch them with a slower ship is "simple"?

Ok.

Being able to engage larger gangs, get kills and not die is not OP?

Ok.

Nano kiting blasters ships are not broken by design?

Ok.

.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#509 - 2013-03-27 18:01:23 UTC
And again, are TDs going to be adjusted to reflect the decreased ranges of all guns?
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#510 - 2013-03-27 18:02:21 UTC
Roime wrote:
So keeping range in a faster ship is "tricky", and trying to catch them with a slower ship is "simple"?

Ok.

Being able to engage larger gangs, get kills and not die is not OP?

Ok.

Nano kiting blasters ships are not broken by design?

Ok.


It's pretty straightforward when you're fighting one other ship, but have you ever tried maintaining range from a whole bunch of things at once when they're coming at you at different speeds and from different directions? It's not so easy!

Kiting ships are able to engage larger gangs, get kills and not die when the pilots in the opposing gang make mistakes. If they maneuver carefully / intelligently you can't really kill them. You have to let yourself be kited.

Nano kiting blaster ships are absolutely not broken, I don't even know what your'e talking about (coincidentally I don't think you know either!). Blaster setups are generally slower than Minmatar cruisers, do less damage at range and have inferior tracking, so I'm not really sure what you're on about. There's a reason the only commonly-seen blaster kiter is the nano Talos...
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#511 - 2013-03-27 18:08:49 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:


in all sincerity, would you care to share some of those mails in your t1 point slicer, unboosted, where you're not blobbing people to death?

i'd be genuinely interested.


I don't use booster alts, sorry, its soft weakass game play that the young bucks in groups like Pizza can't play without.

https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=498675

Theres more, I haven't been flying them lately because slicers are fairly easy mode compared to flying some of the other frigates, especially when you actually roam pure solo.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#512 - 2013-03-27 18:10:40 UTC
Ok the goon kid is just making **** up now, I got nothing left for him since he stopped dealing in actual facts and is now just pulling random crap out of his ass.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#513 - 2013-03-27 18:11:23 UTC
Roime wrote:
So keeping range in a faster ship is "tricky", and trying to catch them with a slower ship is "simple"?





Ok. People say that its unfair that faster ships should be able to escape because they cannot overcome their speed. I can counter that with. Its completely unfair that ships with more damage should win a fight just because I cannot make more damage then they do!


The simple proposition that there is anything wrong with Kiting is beyond stupid! its just blindness! All and any argument you can make against kiting you can make against brute force combat. Always one side will loose! You need to find a way to counter the advantage of the enemy, that is the whole fun of the damm PVP!


If we cannot have kiting, then we cannot have ships with more damage then others. Also we cannot have ships with more hitpoitn or tank than others. Maybe we should all fly only mining barges!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#514 - 2013-03-27 18:11:23 UTC
I notice that people are now whining that missiles are going to be OP because of range...?

Ok, there need to be benefits and drawbacks to each weapon system. Close range turrets vs. close range missiles. Missiles have longer range, but then have to deal with flight time and damage reduction based on target velocity and size.Turrets apply damage instantly, tend to do more damage if they hit, have a critical strike chance (which can really change the outcome of a fight if you're lucky; missiles do not ever hit critically), etc.

Basically what this is doing is further differentiating missiles and turrets as well. It also helps give Caldari back their 'damage projection over more impressive ranges' role that tends to exist within their combat philosophy.

I also will not miss the days of Minmatar PvP superiority and can't wait for these changes to come to pass.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#515 - 2013-03-27 18:19:22 UTC
Aglais wrote:
I

I also will not miss the days of Minmatar PvP superiority and can't wait for these changes to come to pass.


You realize there will never be a time where there not an underdog or a FOTM ?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#516 - 2013-03-27 18:23:14 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:


It's pretty straightforward when you're fighting one other ship, but have you ever tried maintaining range from a whole bunch of things at once when they're coming at you at different speeds and from different directions? It's not so easy!

.



That part , I must grant has some truthful merit. its true that keeping range from several ships in a complex battle is more complicated than trying to approach an specific ship within that same battle.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#517 - 2013-03-27 18:34:27 UTC
Weasel Juice wrote:
Rather than fancy EFT warrior skills, I present you with numbers about reality.

Rank Ships Kills
1 Oracle 54,779 Shield (primarily)
2 Naga 51,812 Shield
3 Tornado 50,412 Shield (primarily)
4 Hurricane 47,395 Shield (primarily)
5 Loki 44,967 Armor (shield possible though)
6 Talos 44,429 Shield
7 Rokh 42,509 Shield
8 Thrasher 40,014 N/A
9 Maelstrom 34,905 Shield
10 Zealot 32,453 Armor
11 Rupture 32,351 Shield
12 Caracal 32,316 Shield (missiles)
13 Sabre 31,227 N/A
14 Hound 29,868 N/A
15 Tempest Fleet Issue 29,182 Shield
16 Drake 27,872 Shield
17 Talwar 25,621 N/A
18 Cynabal 25,341 Shield
19 Stabber Fleet Issue 24,882 Shield
20 Proteus 23,988 Armor

~725,000 in the top 20
~100,000 on armor ships.
~125,000 on speed tanked ships
~500,000 kills on traditional shield ships.
~385,000 kills on shield ships that utilize TEs.


Now let's look at why this trend exists:
* Mobility. Shields are faster, accelerate better, align faster.
* Shield reps hit instantly and still rep for the same amount.
* More base damage potential due to abundance of lowslots




Oracle/Naga/Tornado/Talos shouldn't count in your list because they are the most unbalanced ships in the game. They are faster than t1 cruisers and have ridiculous range, of course they are going to be shield fit.

Rokh is up there because of PL and resistance bonuses.

Maelstrom is because of artillery, not because of kiting.

Tempest Fleet Issue is actually armour and this is goons fit with TWO TRACKING COMPUTERS. get hazed.

Stabber Fleet Issue is usually armour too, either dual rep fit if you have links or plate and sig tank. If you are fitting shield you'd just get a cynabal because fleet stabber has horrible dps.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#518 - 2013-03-27 18:39:38 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:


in all sincerity, would you care to share some of those mails in your t1 point slicer, unboosted, where you're not blobbing people to death?

i'd be genuinely interested.


I don't use booster alts, sorry, its soft weakass game play that the young bucks in groups like Pizza can't play without.

https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=498675

Theres more, I haven't been flying them lately because slicers are fairly easy mode compared to flying some of the other frigates, especially when you actually roam pure solo.


well... 1 kill against an ab frig from 2009 is hardly going to make the case. in looking at your kb, i'm not finding any solo kills for like, years. or any in frigates at all for that matter.

no offense, but i think you're a bit out of touch.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#519 - 2013-03-27 18:44:35 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:

It's pretty straightforward when you're fighting one other ship, but have you ever tried maintaining range from a whole bunch of things at once when they're coming at you at different speeds and from different directions? It's not so easy!

Kiting ships are able to engage larger gangs, get kills and not die when the pilots in the opposing gang make mistakes. If they maneuver carefully / intelligently you can't really kill them. You have to let yourself be kited.

Nano kiting blaster ships are absolutely not broken, I don't even know what your'e talking about (coincidentally I don't think you know either!). Blaster setups are generally slower than Minmatar cruisers, do less damage at range and have inferior tracking, so I'm not really sure what you're on about. There's a reason the only commonly-seen blaster kiter is the nano Talos...


If they were faster than you, it would be impossible.

I do agree that you need to be ******** to burn straight towards a faster ship with more range :D

I mean that the whole existence of nano kiting blaster ships is broken, and the single culprit is TE.

Yes, most ships are slower than the fastest cruisers in game, duh. However, post-Retribution Gallente blaster ships are very close in speed, and blasters have in fact the best tracking. This is even more prominent on tracking-bonused hulls.

I'd personally like to see close-range weapons disappear from all kiting ships, but this TE tweak is not that severe to accomplish that.

People currently think that medium LR turrets are bad, but fail to realize that one reason is the comparative goodness of close range turrets with TEs and T2 ammo.

.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#520 - 2013-03-27 18:47:23 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:

well... 1 kill against an ab frig from 2009 is hardly going to make the case. in looking at your kb, i'm not finding any solo kills for like, years. or any in frigates at all for that matter.

no offense, but i think you're a bit out of touch.


no mate ur right this whole TE NERF IS A TARGETED HIT AGAINST THE SLICER

i think its dumb that my slicer will have to engage under 22km :( :( :(