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[Odyssey] Module Rebalancing Part One: RSBs and TEs

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seth Hendar
I love you miners
#481 - 2013-03-27 16:42:43 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
IWolfMasterI wrote:
why you no like minmatar ccp, your **** us so hard the past year Cry

Maybe CCP sees the problem with Winmatar and is starting to cut them down making fleet doctrines with other ships, let alone give players the option to fly what they want and not what the top ship is.

yea, matar ships are so "i win" that the drake is STILL the most flawn ship....
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#482 - 2013-03-27 16:42:49 UTC
Suyer wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Most of the times a ship with active tank can tank a kiting ship almost forever. Or at least long enough for it to return to gate and jump. That has always been the balancing. And that is why nerfing TE helps. The dps will be a bit lower, so easier to tank.

Now if people do not want to use active tank.. that its their problem, or better and entirely different problem that arises due to different issues.


All fights don't happen on gates. Engaging a kiting ship in a ship that is slower than it and doesn't have an ability to catch it is a terrible idea unless you know you can escape.

What is your point? That for active tanked setups close to a gate that can tank a talos for one minute to deaggro this change is benefical? We're talking about a whole range of ships here, not just edge cases. Plus, tbh if you were in a myrm trying to deaggress on a gate all I have to do is sit at 17km and shoot you. TE or not that doesn't change. I already mentioned in my previous post how this is does very little to effect 1v1 scenarios, as range control versus one person is very easy. So your point is moot.



Just pointing that range control is not the end of the world on most scenarios. Range control is exaclty somethign that demands you to not be alone when fighting a ship that can kite you. Those ships are weaker and you ahve 2 options. Boating back or bring help to kill them. That is balance. If minmatar ships could not kite then they would be FAR inferior.

If there should be no kiting at all. Why ships must move then? Why don' t we start the fight all at station undock?

Just trying to point that things are not simply black or white.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Blackhole's Revenge
CareBear Gankers
#483 - 2013-03-27 16:43:40 UTC
El 'Terrible wrote:
A blanket nerf to TE is very lazy and inconsiderate. How about looking individually at what needs rebalancing rather than trying to rush half thought ideas out?



Because they don't care.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#484 - 2013-03-27 16:44:16 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Perhaps the middle ground is to change the Optimal-Falloffl range split....

Rather than 10-20... perhaps they should be 15-15... (granted, that would be a direct nerf to auto-cannons)



I'm personally just really confused about the purpose of this nerf in general-- if the problem is not that shield / kiting ships are "too good" but that they're "too good relative to armor tanked ships," why not buff tracking computers so that ships without tracking enhancers can project damage better?

Alternatively, they could just nerf autocannons directly if that's what they're so concerned about. v0v


Kiting is about flying in the zone where you can stay out of your enemies (often overwhelming) firepower, while still dealing enough damage to take them down.

This change just narrows that zone, making kiting a bit more difficult so more people will get their throats cut when dancing on the razor's edge.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#485 - 2013-03-27 16:47:48 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
It was never about the range, or Caldari would've been top of the hill for the past few years.

It was always about the speed - kite something forever until it dies, if not, gtfo. What took over since the nano nerf? Oh yeah, the next fastest thing.Roll

TE nerf hits all turret boats, especially the blasterboats that don't need a nerf.

Minmatar falloff should be increased, and their speed decreased to below shorter range boats, so you get to do a mental calculation: Can I whittle away enough of this thing's hp before it catches up to win the dps race?



Speed does not kill anyone without range. And caldari have been the king on larger scale warfare for quite some time. That is why heavy Missiles were nerfed.


Minmatar concept is speed. They have less EHP, capacitor, sensors etc. They cannot defeat other races on direct confrontation, you cannot expect them to do anything but kite.

I repeat MINMATAR CONCEPT IS SPEED. gallente Concept is firepower. Caldari concept is range and Ammarr concept is endurance. DO not try to make races equal...


tl;dr:
Winmatar's "concept" is to win?

I decree you the boss of what Eve should be. Your "concept," however flawed and unbalancing, shall be.Lol

When you can just "gtfo" at will, nothing else (especially ehp) matters. Nothing will be balanced until "gtfo" speed is balanced. Period.

TE nerf hit all turrets, include blasters that don't need a nerf. All races get their gun range nerfed except... rats. Balance is pvp. It's a meaningless pve nerf that does nothing.



if you could gtfo at will then no or almost no minmatar ships would die. But that is not true! You could for example use brains, use a smaller ship to tackle then bring that blaster boat in a warp to zero and TOAST the MUCH less sturdy minmatar ship.


What I could agree is that in eve we lack reasons why someone should STAY and fight. There are not enough fighting conditions that a force that stay and control a specific point wins. Well.. those exist, in blob warfare and are called POS. But we could use something in smaller scale, where for example the staying power of amarr would be rewarded.

I remember in past, when we had to scout freighters trough low sec and 0.0 (no jumping freighters) that the defending force would not have won at all if they disengaged and warped off just because they were faster.... Well this is just a mini rant of how much I hate what jump freighters made to the game.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#486 - 2013-03-27 16:49:10 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
[quote=Ganthrithor]
Kiting is about flying in the zone where you can stay out of your enemies (often overwhelming) firepower, while still dealing enough damage to take them down.

This change just narrows that zone, making kiting a bit more difficult so more people will get their throats cut when dancing on the razor's edge.


But this will only affect turret based kiting. Best frigate kiters currently are Caldari missile spammers and they don't get affected by this at all... together with their spare slots for TD they even get improved by the TE nerv.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2013-03-27 16:50:03 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

it measn that when eve was created blasters were not conceptualized as something you use to kite. You should rush into the opponent, grab him at very close range and over helm him if your superior dps.


I mean ok, that's what CCP assumed when they dreamt up the weapon category, but then nobody used them outside lowsec gate-brawling BC/BS fits because for 90% of engagements the whole idea of point blank weapons on slow armor bricks is a terrible idea.

I still contend that what CCP need to do to give Gallente a viable niche is to drop blaster range, re-orient their ships towards either shield tanking or armor tanking with a bonus that ~*completely*~ offsets the penalties of armor plates (either a bonus that does that explicitly or simply through great base speed / agility stats) and add a bonus to afterburner speed bonuses that lets them use an AB to hit MWD-like speeds.

Point-blank weapons wouldn't be a massive problem if there was some possibility of disengaging. If you're just going to get scrammed and killed like any other chucklefuck though, then blasters are gonna need to be set up to be used like an autocannon-- from outside hard-tackle range-- if you want to see them used.



Do not disagree that there are issues. See my previous post. I think the overvalue of gtfo card comes from the fact that there are not anymore combat scenarios where its more important to stay and fight, than to kill somethign and GTFO.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#488 - 2013-03-27 16:51:20 UTC
Haha, man, this thread is great, i think more people should ask CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise if they've ever played the game, or flown minnie ships, or kiting ships.

You couldn't script this if you tried.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#489 - 2013-03-27 16:52:21 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Best frigate kiters currently are Caldari missile spammers and they don't get affected by this at all... together with their spare slots for TD they even get improved by the TE nerv.


Yea so if you read they've already stated that this is being looked at

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
FireusI
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#490 - 2013-03-27 16:54:41 UTC
Is nice to see these numbers

Name OldFalloffNewFalloff OldOptimal NewOptimal
Azimuth Descalloping Tracking Enhancer 11 7.4 5.5 3.7
Basic Tracking Enhancer 10 6.6 5 3.3
Beam Parallax Tracking Program 12 8 6 4
Beta-Nought Tracking Mode 10.5 7 5.25 3.5
F-AQ Delay-Line Scan Tracking Subroutines 11.5 7.6 5.75 3.8
Tracking Enhancer I 20 13.4 10 6.7
Sigma-Nought Tracking Mode I 21 14 10.5 7
Auto-Gain Control Tracking Enhancer I 22 14.6 11 7.3
F-aQ Phase Code Tracking Subroutines 23 15.4 11.5 7.7
Fourier Transform Tracking Program 24 16 12 8
Tracking Enhancer II 30 20 15 10
Domination Tracking Enhancer 30 20 15 10
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer 30 20 15 10
Mizuro's Modified Tracking Enhancer 31.5 21 15.75 10.5
Hakim's Modified Tracking Enhancer 33 22 16.5 11
Gotan's Modified Tracking Enhancer 34.5 23 17.25 11.5
Tobias' Modified Tracking Enhancer 36 24 18 12

But please leave spaces gaps make it much more easyer to read them insteand of bunching the whole dam thing up


MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#491 - 2013-03-27 16:58:25 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Haha, man, this thread is great, i think more people should ask CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise if they've ever played the game, or flown minnie ships, or kiting ships.

You couldn't script this if you tried.



grath i am slowing starting to like you bro!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#492 - 2013-03-27 16:59:08 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Best frigate kiters currently are Caldari missile spammers and they don't get affected by this at all... together with their spare slots for TD they even get improved by the TE nerv.


Yea so if you read they've already stated that this is being looked at



fingers crossed for td's affecting missiles...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Casha Andven
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#493 - 2013-03-27 17:04:30 UTC
Let me look at a classic kiting Talos fit:

[Talos, KIter]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

I will assume you want to shoot from optimal + falloff/2 for most effective applied DPS while staying safe from a larger gang.

Effective range before pre-nerf: 16 + 28/2 = 30 kms

Effective range before post-nerf: 15 + 24/2 = 27 kms

So when it comes to ships like Talos, Cynabal and Mach, yes the difference is not that much and can be worked around. So I will agree with CCP Rise and Grath Telkin on that.
However what riles so many players with this is what is the necessity of this change?
Is it to feature more armor ships as part of nano gangs? Because the answer is NO, as so many users have pointed out, armor ships will not feature in small gangs as they require full commitment when fighting and will never make out alive when caught by a bigger gang.

One scenario that this changes is in a 1v1 with an armor ship, yes the kiting ship has to come a bit closer, but in that case why not buff the range on unscripted Tracking Computers as so many have already pointed out?

Meanwhile smaller ships like the Stabber, nano frigates using turrets lose 1-2 kms of precious range that is required to keep out of overloaded webs/scrams.
Overall of course this change will not break nano-kiting and small gang meta it will just make it harder but the question remains why, when you could have buffed armor tanking ships (increase in range of unscripted TC) without effecting this.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#494 - 2013-03-27 17:13:14 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Haha, man, this thread is great, i think more people should ask CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise if they've ever played the game, or flown minnie ships, or kiting ships.

You couldn't script this if you tried.



grath i am slowing starting to like you bro!


I grow on you.



Like fungus.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#495 - 2013-03-27 17:15:32 UTC
Its just kind of silly to look at the game and say "kiting ships are super prevalent, it must be because they do too much damage" when the real reason has a lot more to do with how tackling works than kiting ships' amazing dps output (hint: it's pretty mediocre except for the Talos).

I assume CCP Rise must be kil2? The fact that kil2 of all people would be pushing kiting nerfs just blows my mind... you'd think someone who'd had so many extremely close fights while flying kiting ships would appreciate how little room there is for error as it is.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#496 - 2013-03-27 17:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
@CCP Rise: Don't get frustrated. A lot of people are comfortable in what they know and have come to enjoy it. Change can be painful for anyone. Just pull the salient points when they are made. That said.....

So why kiting and thus all the complaints? I'm tracking on the frustration because having always been an armor brawler I recently have started trying it out because frankly I was getting tired of losing ships particularly when the gang is bigger, and if your armor you either win or lose. Rarely is there a GTFO option. And when roaming in Null its fun to be able to engage some groups even if they are bigger, particularly when your in a small corp. But the only way you can attack a big group is via kiting or very shiny ships, maybe bombs but you all get the point.

So I started flying this Omen that one of my Corps mates recommended, at first I was very skeptical as it has only hull tank 10K EHP, but goes 2500m/s and puts out 343 DPS at 29+8.2 with lolscorch (perfect skills, no implants, no boosts.)

[Omen, Man Tank]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Overdrive Injector System II (yes, I know the nano, but when your only tank is from the DCU the nano isn't ideal I find)

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I

Hornet EC-300 x5

And you know what's funny, this cruiser with the least tank I've flown has been the most survivable ship I've ever flown. Now I've been into structure nearly every fight but I've killed plenty with it, attacked a wide range of targets and sized groups, and amazingly this gets out of more "should have died" events than I can believe. Its absolutely a blast. So not as good as Cynabal mind you, but pretty damn cheap to fly so you don't care if you lose it. And I find you really have to work on your manual piloting, manage your cap, stay in tune to everything going on. So its fun and can be used over a broader envelope of engagements you might find where as in most of my armor boats I have to be more choosy about what fights I take or not.

So my point is that it makes some sense that CCP would want to tone this down some because it does seem a bit lop sided when an amarr kiting cruiser with zero tank outperforms an amarr armor cruiser for so many types of uses. Now that doesn't say there are not times and places where I still prefer armor depending on what your doing and what kind of fleet but for small gang work....well kiting is hard to beat.

Summary:
I guess the nerf is needed, but your going to get some tears CCP. I also think you'll need to take a look at ships now across the board that become now unbalanced due to this (ie the missle boats, definitely the Caracal) and maybe some gun boats that tend to kite will need a look at (like can they kill anything at all with lower dps defore they run out of CAP?) Even with the Nerf though, I guess my Favorite Omen will still be good....OH WAIT it just got more kity with a 600K mass reduction! YES Agility! Thanks CCP.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#497 - 2013-03-27 17:21:56 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
@CCP Rise: Don't get frustrated. A lot of people are comfortable in what they know and have come to enjoy it. Change can be painful for anyone. Just pull the salient points when they are made. That said.....

So why kiting and thus all the complaints? I'm tracking on the frustration because having always been an armor brawler I recently have started trying it out because frankly I was getting tired of losing ships particularly when the gang is bigger, and if your armor you either win or lose. Rarely is there a GTFO option. And when roaming in Null its fun to be able to engage some groups even if they are bigger, particularly when your in a small corp. But the only way you can attack a big group is via kiting or very shiny ships, maybe bombs but you all get the point.

So I started flying this Omen that one of my Corps mates recommended, at first I was very skeptical as it has only hull tank 10K EHP, but goes 2500m/s and puts out 343 DPS at 29+8.2 with lolscorch (perfect skills, no implants, no boosts.)

[Omen, Man Tank]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Overdrive Injector System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I

Hornet EC-300 x5

And you know what's funny, this cruiser with the least tank I've flow has been the most survivable ship I've ever flow. Now I've been into structure nearly every fight but I've killed plenty with it, attacked a wide range of targets and sized groups, and amazingly this gets out of more "should have died" events than I can believe. Its absolutely a blast. So not as good as Cynabal mind you, but pretty damn cheap to fly so you don't care if you lose it. And I find you really have to work on your manual piloting, manage your cap, stay in tune to everything going on. So its fun and can be used over a broader envelope of engagements you might find where as in most of my armor boats I have to be more choosy about what fights I take or not.

So my point is that it makes some sense that CCP would want to tone this down some because it does seem a bit lop sided when an amarr kiting cruiser with zero tank outperforms an amarr armor cruiser for so many types of uses. Now that doesn't say there are not times and places where I still prefer armor depending on what your doing and what kind of fleet but for small gang work....well kiting is hard to beat.

Summary:
I guess the nerf is needed, but your going to get some tears CCP. I also think you'll need to take a look at ships now across the board that become now unbalanced due to this (ie the missle boats, definitely the Caracal) and maybe some gun boats that tend to kite will need a look at (like can they kill anything at all with lower dps defore they run out of CAP?) Even with the Nerf though, I guess my Favorite Omen will still be good.






So tl;dr: kiting is an extremely engaging, tricky, and fun style of gameplay, while brawling is simplistic, deterministic, and frustrating. And your recommendation is that they nerf the fun thing so its not as viable of an option. Because more people should do the annoying, frustrating thing instead?

Ok...
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#498 - 2013-03-27 17:22:54 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Haha, man, this thread is great, i think more people should ask CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise if they've ever played the game, or flown minnie ships, or kiting ships.

You couldn't script this if you tried.


I know, right?

It's further laden with the irony that they're whining about flying versus EFT warrioring changes that they themselves cannot fly and at best can only do seat of the pants EFT warrioring about.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#499 - 2013-03-27 17:31:45 UTC

[/quote]


So tl;dr: kiting is an extremely engaging, tricky, and fun style of gameplay, while brawling is simplistic, deterministic, and frustrating. And your recommendation is that they nerf the fun thing so its not as viable of an option. Because more people should do the annoying, frustrating thing instead?

Ok...[/quote]

I hear you man...Like I said I'm a bit ambivalent but I can see the need to bring the two a bit closer vice being miles apart. And even with these changes, I don't think its kills kiting. It just won't be quite as lopsided as it is now. I mean to be honest, it needs to hit sisi and test it some. But of course I've noticed that rarely does anything get put into sisi and despite thousands of suggestions does it result in anything, you know like medium rails.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#500 - 2013-03-27 17:34:25 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:


I hear you man...Like I said I'm a bit ambivalent but I can see the need to bring the two a bit closer vice being miles apart. And even with these changes, I don't think its kills kiting. It just won't be quite as lopsided as it is now. I mean to be honest, it needs to hit sisi and test it some. But of course I've noticed that rarely does anything get put into sisi and despite thousands of suggestions does it result in anything, you know like medium rails.


SiSi isn't for testing, its for familiarizing yourself with impending changes :\

Also most fighting on SiSi just isn't useful for evaluation unless you put together your own group of players for testing. Otherwise its just faggots sitting on the combat beacons with their faction battleships / gimmick fits waiting for you to engage them so they can warp in a a few carriers and kill you.