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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Frigates

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#261 - 2013-03-21 09:12:10 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
TDs are OP enough that you can run around killing most frigates in a heron, which has precisely 0 bonuses related to combat. (Just a lot of mids)


Can't kill dual rep incursuses =< They are to good at killing drones and end up permatanking you =<

Its pretty amusing though


Its possible to kill them. Bleed them dry of cap boosters, and use tracking speed script to make it harder for it to kill your drones. You dont even need to range TD it to take no damage at 7k.

But yeah, because ewar is so OP, you can use a completely unbonused frigate to kill most t1, faction and pirate frigates without a care
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#262 - 2013-03-21 09:14:35 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:

Still get a sneaky suspicion the proposed firetail is going to be overpowered.


I feel quite the opposite :S

All in all at min frig lvl 5, firetail gets a grand total of %12.5 increase on DPS. Not bad but will not make a big change.

The other REAL big buff to firetail is done to all ships: Capacitor.

Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 (+30) / 140s (-47.5) / 2 (+0.667)

All faction ships are brought to "2" base recharge value. Firetails old capacitor really sucked. With the new one firetail gets a whopping %50 increase on cap recharge, which will enable some previously not so valid fits (Arty kiter for example)

What I would REALLY like is changing the tracking bonus with a falloff bonus. We already have 2 tracking bonused ships (rifter and slasher).
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#263 - 2013-03-21 10:01:10 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
TDs are OP enough that you can run around killing most frigates in a heron, which has precisely 0 bonuses related to combat. (Just a lot of mids)


Can't kill dual rep incursuses =< They are to good at killing drones and end up permatanking you =<

Its pretty amusing though


Its possible to kill them. Bleed them dry of cap boosters, and use tracking speed script to make it harder for it to kill your drones. You dont even need to range TD it to take no damage at 7k.

But yeah, because ewar is so OP, you can use a completely unbonused frigate to kill most t1, faction and pirate frigates without a care


Yea i decided to try that next time, problem is the cycle time on td's and the fact that an incursus CAN actually hit you at 7km if he has neutrons and null.. and no tank.

So its risky but its what i'll do if i ever bring out the mighty battle heron again.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#264 - 2013-03-21 11:05:20 UTC
And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#265 - 2013-03-21 11:09:22 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:

Still get a sneaky suspicion the proposed firetail is going to be overpowered.


I feel quite the opposite :S

All in all at min frig lvl 5, firetail gets a grand total of %12.5 increase on DPS. Not bad but will not make a big change.

The other REAL big buff to firetail is done to all ships: Capacitor.

Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 (+30) / 140s (-47.5) / 2 (+0.667)

All faction ships are brought to "2" base recharge value. Firetails old capacitor really sucked. With the new one firetail gets a whopping %50 increase on cap recharge, which will enable some previously not so valid fits (Arty kiter for example)

What I would REALLY like is changing the tracking bonus with a falloff bonus. We already have 2 tracking bonused ships (rifter and slasher).



I think the tracking bonus is fine. This ship will be able to cause other ships to miss due to transversal if it gets in close due to its speed and size. The tracking bonus will help it score allot of damage itself.

Falloff bonus would be better but it would be too much IMO. It should already be the best brawling navy frigate.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#266 - 2013-03-21 21:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?


Because in this case the weakness is "it uses guns"

Edit: Imagine if a badger could fly around and kill cynabals and thoraxs with ease. It would be pretty stupid, wouldnt it?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#267 - 2013-03-21 22:10:57 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?


Because in this case the weakness is "it uses guns"

Edit: Imagine if a badger could fly around and kill cynabals and thoraxs with ease. It would be pretty stupid, wouldnt it?

Nope, the weakness is "it uses short range guns". Short range guns are prone to be outranged.

BTW, the problem can only exists at frigate level because of the range of small SR weapons.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#268 - 2013-03-21 23:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?


Because in this case the weakness is "it uses guns"

Edit: Imagine if a badger could fly around and kill cynabals and thoraxs with ease. It would be pretty stupid, wouldnt it?

Nope, the weakness is "it uses short range guns". Short range guns are prone to be outranged.

BTW, the problem can only exists at frigate level because of the range of small SR weapons.


Long range guns you just tracking speed disrupt and orbit close. Ive killed artywolves, rail catas, etc in a probe.

(Note that both the wolf and rail cata are both range AND tracking bonused)
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#269 - 2013-03-22 04:37:15 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?



a heron can kill a combat frigate, you just need to fit exactly for what your opponent is flying.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#270 - 2013-03-22 08:20:02 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Because in this case the weakness is "it uses guns"

Edit: Imagine if a badger could fly around and kill cynabals and thoraxs with ease. It would be pretty stupid, wouldnt it?

Nope, the weakness is "it uses short range guns". Short range guns are prone to be outranged.

BTW, the problem can only exists at frigate level because of the range of small SR weapons.


Long range guns you just tracking speed disrupt and orbit close. Ive killed artywolves, rail catas, etc in a probe.

(Note that both the wolf and rail cata are both range AND tracking bonused)[/quote]
Catalyst are slower than cruisers... And AF are not that fast either, and often use a MWD.

As I said multiple times already, it's only a matter of speed here. Any attack frigate would prevent you from using such tactics. Not to mention any drone or missile ships.

What I don't understand is why a heavy blaster environment (incursus/merlin of the first days of frigate tiericide) making the meta to shift to scram kiting tactics isn't bad, but TD forcing the meta to shift is bad and a proof that TD are OP. People have such a hate against EWAR, it's not rational. People accept to adapt to weapons, but not to EWAR, because they see it as unfair.

These high utility ships are so lightly tanked, anything catching them will eat them, the only exception being the Hookbill, and yet I'm sure another navy frig would be able to kill it.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#271 - 2013-03-22 09:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


As I said multiple times already, it's only a matter of speed here. Any attack frigate would prevent you from using such tactics. Not to mention any drone or missile ships.

What I don't understand is why a heavy blaster environment (incursus/merlin of the first days of frigate tiericide) making the meta to shift to scram kiting tactics isn't bad, but TD forcing the meta to shift is bad and a proof that TD are OP. People have such a hate against EWAR, it's not rational. People accept to adapt to weapons, but not to EWAR, because they see it as unfair.

These high utility ships are so lightly tanked, anything catching them will eat them, the only exception being the Hookbill, and yet I'm sure another navy frig would be able to kill it.


Nope nope nope. Attack frigates die just as well to this. Blasters, railguns, autocannons, arty, pulse lasers, beam lasers. It doesnt make any difference at all.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#272 - 2013-03-22 09:22:16 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?



a heron can kill a combat frigate, you just need to fit exactly for what your opponent is flying.


and by "fit exactly for what your opponent is flying" you mean "fit to fight a ship that has guns."
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#273 - 2013-03-22 12:52:44 UTC
Problem is that there is no way to stop these cries outside of nerfing TD to uselessness, because as long as TD will have any use, this tactic will be usable. And this is because speed superiority along with the ranges and speed involved in frigate fights allow for this to happen.

After a TD nerf, the hookbill will use triple web and do the same as before, because only the speed difference allow a ship to fool the tracking of another ship.

The module to blame is not the TD, it's the web.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#274 - 2013-03-22 14:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Michael Harari wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?



a heron can kill a combat frigate, you just need to fit exactly for what your opponent is flying.


and by "fit exactly for what your opponent is flying" you mean "fit to fight a ship that has guns."


I do allot of frigate fights.

I see both sides of this. I do use tds allot with my kestrel (actually I love the fit and have lost close to 100 of them) However the fights are close. Most other t1 frigates can come in close and then I need to wait for the td cycle to end and switch to the tracking script and try to start orbiting close. With good pilots there is allot of this back and forth. Meanwhile I am doing maybe 150 dps while the incursus/merlin is doing 250ish dps at least on paper. The tristans are also always tough because of the drone damage they do that are immune to tds.

Sometimes I win sometimes I lose but againts equivalently skilled pilots, they are all pretty much good fights where both end up in structure. If the enemy never bothers to overheat his ab to close range, has no web and ab in a low sec brawling ship, I don't have allot of sympathy. Putting mwds on everything is just not smart or if you do you shouldn't be fighting other ships with 4 or more midslots. If a ship is fit with an ab and web they should be able to overheat ab and close range or try to break out of scram range and escape. Keeping someone at 7k with a scram that only reaches to 9 k (10 k with heat)is not always so easy.

I'm also not a big fan of people using booster alts and orbitting at 28 k and killing my ship in a non-fight. This is much too easy and ccp should change ogb asap. In the mean time the td is effective to force them to come in close enough where I at least have a chance of landing a scram or at least do the much lower damage of javelin rockets after a reload. The swarm of kiting missle ships are the exception to this and that is why I never jump in a plex with a condor/hookbill in it.

So while I agree its powerful, the web is more powerful, and tds lead to allot of good/interesting fights. So I am not in favor of nerfing them right away. I would like to see how people adapt. If people adapt by just no longer using turrets then I think ccp should consider boosting turrets.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
#275 - 2013-03-22 15:17:13 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I'm also not a big fan of people using booster alts and orbitting at 28 k and killing my ship in a non-fight. This is much too easy and ccp should change ogb asap.


With the absurd off grid boosts gone, the meta would change so dramatically , most of the fine balance issues could end up fixed. This includes damp/TD effectiveness at the frig level. Without 36km points, kiting will become tricky again. So for now I'm hoping that Fozzie's implied meta shift is ogb going the way of the dodo. Big smile

Minmatar Balancing, 3 suggestions.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2013-03-22 15:40:11 UTC
The problem with TD is that it can be used to not just decrease incoming DPS but to pretty much eliminate it; maybe the answer is not to nerf TD but tweak ammo.

Ammo such as spike can be used to counter optimal range disruption but the tracking is so poor it can still be tricky to hit a fast opponent, if long range ammo like Iron/radio S became more like carbonised lead which already has tracking bonus (could be increased) then at least turret users would have a low dps ammo that could reliably at least get hits and this ammo could be used in both long range and short range weapons (perhaps may need to introduce a falloff bonus to them to benefit short range weapons)
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#277 - 2013-03-22 15:51:35 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Problem is that there is no way to stop these cries outside of nerfing TD to uselessness, because as long as TD will have any use, this tactic will be usable. And this is because speed superiority along with the ranges and speed involved in frigate fights allow for this to happen.

After a TD nerf, the hookbill will use triple web and do the same as before, because only the speed difference allow a ship to fool the tracking of another ship.

The module to blame is not the TD, it's the web.


That's so true. The problem of web is that there is no real way to counter web. While one web is not a big problem two or more webs are. A ship with more medium slots can always dicate range towards a ship with less slots due to the capability to fit more webs.

I think CCP should consider to either limit the number of webs to one per ship or preferably they should provide a low-slot anti-web module which significantly reduces the effect of a web on your ship. This would add some spice since you would be able to counter double-webs (medium slot) for example with two anti-web modules (low slot).
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#278 - 2013-03-22 16:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Meditril wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Problem is that there is no way to stop these cries outside of nerfing TD to uselessness, because as long as TD will have any use, this tactic will be usable. And this is because speed superiority along with the ranges and speed involved in frigate fights allow for this to happen.

After a TD nerf, the hookbill will use triple web and do the same as before, because only the speed difference allow a ship to fool the tracking of another ship.

The module to blame is not the TD, it's the web.


That's so true. The problem of web is that there is no real way to counter web. While one web is not a big problem two or more webs are. A ship with more medium slots can always dicate range towards a ship with less slots due to the capability to fit more webs.

I think CCP should consider to either limit the number of webs to one per ship or preferably they should provide a low-slot anti-web module which significantly reduces the effect of a web on your ship. This would add some spice since you would be able to counter double-webs (medium slot) for example with two anti-web modules (low slot).

I'm not suggesting this, but it would be interesting to take this to the extreme.

Eliminate Scrams and Webs.

Introduce a new module, the Stasis Scram.

It performs as a current Web, but can have a script loaded that allows it to act as our current Scram.

Limit of one mounted per ship.

Big smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#279 - 2013-03-22 16:55:41 UTC
What the hell kind of circle jerking are you engaged in?

Web reaches 10km (heat, links and fat wallets not withstanding) and while it indirectly affects tracking a bit by creating a speed gap one must assume a target is set up to operate in those conditions .. if not then "paper, meet scissors" .. ie. working perfectly.
TD's affect tracking or range directly and does so out to a whopping 70km+, the tracking hit taken when a TD is applied is several orders of magnitude higher than if a web was applied (without doing math I'd guess 3xwebs = 1xTD).

One practically need at least twin webs to use them in place of a single TD, and due to range constraints chances are one is nearly dead by the time said tracking advantage kicks in fully (assuming it is used against kiter/high-dps-low-tracking target) .. and all the webs in the world does nothing if you are outranged rather than out-tracked.
You use triple web Hooks as a case in point .. just what game are we talking about here? You really think a brawling fit without tank has any chance of surviving against anyone with a clue or not AFK .. a generic Slicer will have you in flames before webs are even applied.

Most dangerous and versatile Hook is single web+TD, you quite simply have no hope of hitting those things unless he messes up and/or panics ahead of schedule (read: is new to the ship).

Now stop rummaging around the the barrel of Apples and come back to the Orange orchard so we can discuss this as adults Smile

PS: Arbitrarily restricting web count is bad mojo, they had to do it with AAR's due to having recently ****** up with SBA's, but we are lobbying for an eWar revision so that kind of panic button abuse should not even be on the table.
Better option is to look at cost of running the modules, we have frigates/ceptors with tackle cap bonus but only disruptors put any real strain on cap .. double (or MOAR!) scram/web consumption across the board and let people die trying to spam them.
PPS: Cap consumption can be used to balance generic eWar as well, imagine a TD with 2-3x the drain .. boats designed for their use could then have a reduction similar to the tackle frigs. Call it the indirect nerf approach.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#280 - 2013-03-22 19:28:54 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
PS: Arbitrarily restricting web count is bad mojo, they had to do it with AAR's due to having recently ****** up with SBA's, but we are lobbying for an eWar revision so that kind of panic button abuse should not even be on the table.
Better option is to look at cost of running the modules, we have frigates/ceptors with tackle cap bonus but only disruptors put any real strain on cap .. double (or MOAR!) scram/web consumption across the board and let people die trying to spam them.
PPS: Cap consumption can be used to balance generic eWar as well, imagine a TD with 2-3x the drain .. boats designed for their use could then have a reduction similar to the tackle frigs. Call it the indirect nerf approach.

This is more reasonable talks.

But you are wrong about the power of web : at frigate level, 200m/s speed difference allow you to fool the tracking of even small electron blasters. 200m/s transversale at 500m mean 50% less dps from electron blasters with navy ammo.

200m/s transversale is what you get with AB+web vs AB+2web.

Just look at the tracking formula : only the third web will be less powerful than a TD to outtrack the ennemy.

What the web don't do is giving you a tracking or range *advantage*, but you still need speed to use this advantage, or the ennemy will prevent you from using it. And when you have missiles, you already have tracking and range advantage.

A Hookbill could replace the 2 TD by tank and still win most of the fight it win with the TD.