Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Maybe because webs affect all ships the same independent of their weapon system?

Web ? Situational ?! This module a frigate is considered unapt to brawl if unable to fit it ? You can't be serious !

As for TD, a module only working against turrets (hence useless against about 40% of combat ships), useless without speed superiority, counterable with long range weapon or speed (not to mention tracking/range modules), neutering is not the right word.

I may understand the anti ECM crowd, because of the mecanic of ECM and the only counter being useless for almost any other cases, but TD ? That's only childish cries... Moreover when you consider what is actually needed to stop these cries (same as ECM) and what that would do to the metagame.

IMPERIAL NAVY SLICER need much max targeting range. SLICER has bonus on optimal, but have targeting range less then CALDARI NAVY HOOKBILL. Why? When somebody will use one Sensor Dumper on SLICER, it will be not able to fire on full optimal range, but other navy ships can. It is not honest.

No one is comparing webs to TDs, we have said that the COMBINATION is lethal.

Anyway, I didn't really feel that TDs were that OP, but I can see that theyvare a little too effective while unbonused.

Is it possible to make TDs work in reverse with regards to their optimal and falloff? Have them be weak close up but stronger from far away?

Authority argument from the renowed Garviel Tarrant, Beholder of Truth !

Are you sure a frigate is large enough to hold your ego ?

TD OPness is a perception.

Only effect of TD is to convert a speed supremacy into a short range turret invulnerability shield. Counters exists : for example, the slicer could use beams instead of pulse, and then be allowed to use long range cristals to negate the effect of the TD at the price of lower damage ; but then, it's suboptimal compared to a pulse slicer when not facing TD. People could adapt, but when it comes to EWAR, that's always "unfair". People want optimal fits, and because EWAR ruin their optimal fits, it's unfair.

There is absolutely no more argument supporting "TD is OP" than "web is OP" or "blasters are OP" or "scram is OP". TD are only an effective module with the particularity to add very well to speed superiority modules, because it exarcebate their effect. It's simple : what speed superiority gives is the ability to outrange or outtrack the ennemy, or the negation of these ; TD only help doing it. If that works well at frigate level, it's because of speed and ranges involved. Frigate speed, even webed, is enough to fool the tracking of almost any turret or quickly put enough distance with the enemy.

TD is not more OP than web or scram or MWD or anything else. It's only a useful module people consider fitting on their ships, and mid slots desperatly more modules like this, because the trio "prop+scram+web" is boring.


Double web + TD is only possible on the hookbill. That's more of a hookbill problem than anything else.

For frigate brawl, if you remove TD, the one with the more speed will still dictate range and tracking of the fight. What will be the difference from now ? And what will be fitted instead of the TD ? What do you hope from a TD nerf ?

If any, TD promote the use of small LR weapons.

I would encourage you to go back and read it, because you are basically making your argument irrelevant by not explaining your perspective within the context of controling range. Bouh has outlined a huge flaw in your general whining about TDs.

So, Garviel pretend I am stupid for a minute and explain to me how I can use an overpowered TD to win in a situation where I don't have range control.

Dude, thanks for taking the time to outline your perspective within that context, because I personally come away from that post with an attitude of ‘agree to disagree’. There is no correct or easy answer to whether TDs are overpowered or not because there is no correct or easy answer to if range control has a healthy amount of influence on the outcome of a frigate engagement right now. Arguments can be made for or against that premise with equal legitimacy, depending on where you happen to fall on the spectrum of opinion, and perhaps that is a type of ‘balance’ that CCP is content to maintain for the time being. Tough to say.

I think cap usage would be an interesting way to change the employment of TDs (and other EWAR) on unbonused frigs (with the caveat that EWAR hulls were adjusted to compensate). A problem being that it obviously doesn’t scale well as anything balanced around frigate cap usage will be trivial for larger hulls, and if it is balanced for EWAR cruisers or something then it could be completely unworkable for small ships.

Just changing the effectiveness like you are advocating (I think) to something around 40% for a scripted TD might swing it to far away from being an effective 1-mid counter to turret damage in a fit with range control. Maybe if TDs worked on missiles as well that might be a good number, but I think that level of nerf (to unbonused usage) would mean you would never see a TD chosen for a utility mid pushing the choice even farther towards ‘moar range control’ (tackle or dual-prop), and that leads to a dull meta imo.

Turret might be OP, but a launcher slot like the firetail might work.

TDs are OP enough that you can run around killing most frigates in a heron, which has precisely 0 bonuses related to combat. (Just a lot of mids)

...? What? Who? ...What?

So few gunboats left in game?

They make up at least half the ships (which actually use weapons instead of Ewar) still in game.

T1 alone we have

Frigates:
Merlin
Executioner
Tormentor
Punisher
Atron
Incursus
Slasher
Rifter

Making it 8/24 frigates are gun ships, but it's more along the lines of 8/16 if you remove exploration ships and Ewar boats. (neither meant to use guns beyond *maybe* shooting drones)

4/8 Destroyers are gun ships.

6/16 Cruisers are, but since 5/16 don't use weapons at all (logi + BB) it's like 6/11. (same as at the frigate level)

8/12 BC's are gunships.

8.5/12 BS's are gunships. ('Phoon is the .5)

Out of all the ships that are actually in the role of dealing damage in the tech 1 (non-faction) bracket, 34.5/59 are gun ships. A majority. Admittedly, the other 24.5 split 2 weapons between them, as opposed to the 34.5 splitting 3. But the fact remains that a majority of damage dealing ships are turret based.

But I also agree that I don't think drones/missiles would be the fix for the Slicer. Giving it drones would make it step on the toes of the Comet. Giving it missiles... well, an unbonused launcher doesn't do much DPS at all. And it would require a large addition of fitting space for a light missile launcher, because it definitely won't be in range to use a rocket launcher.

And that utility high isn't helping it at all. I'm not sure what they could do. I don't mind it being forced into a kiting role, I just wish that it did it well enough that it warranted using it over any other ships that do the same.