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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

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Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#81 - 2013-03-04 20:29:33 UTC
Darius Brinn wrote:
Quote:
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?


That's absurd. Precisely because it's THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

In WoW and similar games, someone at a lower "lower" level has nothing to do against "max level" characters.

In EvE, a 30 days player can consistently DESTROY a veteran player at EVERYTHING. Be it business success, commanding other players or simply 1vs1 PvP.

In EvE, your success is determined by your numbers, talent and preparation, and MUCH LESS BY TIME SPENT SUBSCRIBED than in ANY other games out there.




This is the most absurd thing I have ever read.
A new player in eve barely understands game mechanics.
What you are talking about is a vet that made an alt with low SP into one specific role to outplay some one.
In other MMOS all you have to get is gear. After that you can do anything you want.
You don't have to spend month to learn how to wear a pair of boots.

I will say it again this post is about new players and the 'SP wall".
Go read one of my earlier replies about roles. Maybe then you will understand what I mean :).
Prekaz
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#82 - 2013-03-04 20:33:31 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


I will say it again this post is about new players and the 'SP wall".
Go read one of my earlier replies about roles. Maybe then you will understand what I mean :).


There is no "SP wall".
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#83 - 2013-03-04 20:33:58 UTC
Tom Hagen wrote:
I agree that the SP system is broken!
But I don't recognize what Hefty describes. I have been around for some time now, and every now and then some noob (less then 4 years) comes by and shoots me down Shocked.

How is this possible? I mean I most likely have more SP then him, I think it would only be fair if, whenever someone initiate combat a SP check was made. The person with lower SP should get a x% miss chance depending on how big the difference in SP is...

It's only fair to us old timers!


It's an honor to meet some one that has been playing for so long.
But that time has gotten you so far away from that wall that I don't think you would understand what I mean.
Earlier I had a reply about an example that I made about roles and why it's so punishing for new players.
Go read it, quite interesting.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#84 - 2013-03-04 20:36:22 UTC
Prekaz wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.


This statement is completely untrue, but it is definitely the case that this perception exists.

That's a marketing problem more than a game mechanics problem, though. They definitely should do more to address the erroneous belief that you need 1.5 years of training to be slightly effective.

I am curious: What is it that you/your friends were interested in doing that simply could not be done without 1.5 years of training? Someone else asked you this on the first page, and you didn't really furnish a response.


My point is this... ( the 1.5 years that I am talking about )

As the game progresses the "SP wall" keeps on getting bigger.
When you play a game you don't want to stick to one specific role and tunnel vision it to be good.
You want to experience multiple roles and see different sides of everything.
In eve you simply cannot do that.
Mining for new players is the worst thing I could imagine for them...
Sitting there mining with low skills when they are simply fueling the bigger players.
To be good at mining and actually breach the wall to be effective you need mining skills and refinery skills.
That's 2 totally different skill paths that makes the wall even bigger.
Now this is only an example... So say this new player gets sick of mining. Guess what?
You are stuck with mining since it would open up a third path where you have to now start training.
That makes the wall even bigger. You want to still train mining and refining to be good but now you want to pvp or run missions. That increase in roles makes the SP training 3x harder... You have to step back and see just how useless new players feel. Now this new player wanting to run mission has to train weapon skills, tanking skills,core skills and piloting skills. Each one of those paths makes the wall tremendously bigger.

I guess I should have explained my post better but it would have been the biggest wall of text ever.
I really hope that I am making sense.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#85 - 2013-03-04 20:39:00 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
This isn't the game for you.



You didn't understand the whole reason about this post.
I am past the wall that I am talking about.
I love the game because I am now able to do things anyone with less than a year of training can't dream of.

So again this post isn't about me.
I am not butthurt in any way.
I am not complaining in anyway that I can't do anything or feel useless.
This post is about new players and the SP wall that they face.

Here is my example.

As the game progresses the "SP wall" keeps on getting bigger.
When you play a game you don't want to stick to one specific role and tunnel vision it to be good.
You want to experience multiple roles and see different sides of everything.
In eve you simply cannot do that.
Mining for new players is the worst thing I could imagine for them...
Sitting there mining with low skills when they are simply fueling the bigger players.
To be good at mining and actually breach the wall to be effective you need mining skills and refinery skills.
That's 2 totally different skill paths that makes the wall even bigger.
Now this is only an example... So say this new player gets sick of mining. Guess what?
You are stuck with mining since it would open up a third path where you have to now start training.
That makes the wall even bigger. You want to still train mining and refining to be good but now you want to pvp or run missions. That increase in roles makes the SP training 3x harder... You have to step back and see just how useless new players feel. Now this new player wanting to run mission has to train weapon skills, tanking skills,core skills and piloting skills. Each one of those paths makes the wall tremendously bigger.

I guess I should have explained my post better but it would have been the biggest wall of text ever.
I really hope that I am making sense.
Prekaz
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#86 - 2013-03-04 20:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Prekaz
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
...blather...


You did not answer the question. Here, allow me to try a different presentation.

You said in your OP:

Quote:
Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training... So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away.


1. Slightly effective at WHAT?
2. What SPECIFIC ACTIVITY/ACTIVITIES did they want to engage in that was "years of training away"?

These seem like simple questions. You could probably provide a complete answer in one or two sentences each - a four paragraph exposition on the plight of new players in Eve is unnecessary.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#87 - 2013-03-04 20:45:27 UTC
Ravenal wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

There are two sides to this problem - like people have already hinted at. The first aspect is goal and the second is the journey.

If people see the goal as amassing skill points to get into the big ships without there being anything worth doing in between then yes, that's a huge problem. Some people might even see that there is fun stuff to do before they get the skill points to do the 'big' stuff. The character bazaar is the solution for those people. Yes, it's costly and as such not the 'best' solution. Is there a different and better solution to allow new people quickly get to that point? Maybe, by removing the prerequisite skills so that you could train titan (or whatever) right from the start. Well, they could but it'd just be compromising the 'feel' of a skill system. You know how to fly a titan but not a frigate ... what's wrong with you?

So the answer to this question:
- There is value to taking the time to train ... represented by skill points
- There is stuff you can do for fun while you attain your skill point goals, the character bazaar is an alternative for those that don't want to wait.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

Forums, run for CSM. CCP does listen to the community. If you have an alternative solution and support that's the best route to success.


Hefty TheFirst wrote:

This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

Yes - like I said before. No, you will never get a new character into the skill point heights of the older characters. But the skill point system also levels out. Put my character in an assault frigate against a 10m skill point character and there could be no discernible difference in the number of EFFECTIVE skill points. Sure, I could jump into a t3 cruiser, carrier, or something and have a lot more effective skill points. I'm just saying - once you pick a ship to fly you are leaving a LOT of skill points behind.

The only difference between a new player and an old player are options. You say that it takes too long to acquire some options and you might be absolutely correct. But I say there is also value in having those kinds of options. I've gone through the phase where there isn't anything really the 'need' for anything new to train. This, in my opinion is worse than having long term skill training options.



Perfect you get the jest of my posts.
New players have very few option and it makes the game boring and leads them to the "great SP wall"
Now I am not saying make it easy for new players to get a Titan.
But the wall right now give less and less options for new players.
They either are stuck at training for one path to be good at it or wait for months of training to finish so that they can finally pick up that other role they wanted to play. Then they only have the "good basics" of the one role not even the optimal skills.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#88 - 2013-03-04 20:49:41 UTC
Katarina Reid wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?


There is no problem but there is things being done to help new guys like tiericide so t1 ships are nearly as good as t2

Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?


CSM

Hefty TheFirst wrote:
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?


Specialization dont try to do everything. Join a new player friendly corp.


I build characters to sell and aslong as you dont try to do everyting with one character you dont have to train to long. janna pw 123 thats a 6 months tengu i did.


evemon plans download


freighter 32 days
tengu 111 days
cap 6months
manifacture/research 60 days
P.I. 45days

The cap character is the basic you need but the rest are solid. My 3m sp alt karma kills hulks fine kills . My trader alt only has 3m sp and my pve alt that i was using only had 10m sp and i made loads of isk running ded sites.


When a new player gets stuck with only one role the game gets very boring.
As the other great aspects of eve are a different role and months of training away.
New players have a MASSIVE "SP wall" they have to climb.
When your MMO goes on for as long as EVE has something needs to be done to fix the way skills scale in training time.
With each passing patch and new skills added the wall just gets bigger and bigger for new players.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#89 - 2013-03-04 20:52:19 UTC
Eve Amada wrote:
OP, go back to WoW.

This game is not for you, it is only for MATURE players :P


Good one.
Note that this post is about new players and not myself.
If all you gathered was that I am butthurt because I can't fly a Titan your reply has backfired and you should feel bad.
Wow was an example...
Jou dom vokken poes.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#90 - 2013-03-04 20:53:35 UTC
Ravenal wrote:
The only difference between a new player and an old player are options.


This.

I will concede that the first 6 months of EVE you are pretty scrubbish.

Not today spaghetti.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#91 - 2013-03-04 20:53:52 UTC
Ravenal wrote:
As a matter of fact, concerning pvp, you don't want to have too many skill points. Makes for more expensive clones and the "need" to fly more expensive shi(t)ps.


This post is about new players not PVP and the cost of expensive clones.
Hahahah new players will never get to feel the cost of an expensive clone.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#92 - 2013-03-04 20:56:32 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Ravenal wrote:
As a matter of fact, concerning pvp, you don't want to have too many skill points. Makes for more expensive clones and the "need" to fly more expensive shi(t)ps.

My PvP alt stopped training at 15m SP, and he doesn't even have perfect skills in anything. That's roughly 7 months of training though.


Thats an alt... 7 months and you can only fly basic pvp ships and have one role.
Now that you do pvp and have a pvp skilled pilot how are you going to pay for that PVP?
That's right with your main... That means you have multiple accounts that surpass the wall that I speak of.
Also with each alt account the roles you can play greatly increase.
Here is an example....

My point is this...As the game progresses the "SP wall" keeps on getting bigger.
When you play a game you don't want to stick to one specific role and tunnel vision it to be good.
You want to experience multiple roles and see different sides of everything.
In eve you simply cannot do that.
Mining for new players is the worst thing I could imagine for them...
Sitting there mining with low skills when they are simply fueling the bigger players.
To be good at mining and actually breach the wall to be effective you need mining skills and refinery skills.
That's 2 totally different skill paths that makes the wall even bigger.
Now this is only an example... So say this new player gets sick of mining. Guess what?
You are stuck with mining since it would open up a third path where you have to now start training.
That makes the wall even bigger. You want to still train mining and refining to be good but now you want to pvp or run missions. That increase in roles makes the SP training 3x harder... You have to step back and see just how useless new players feel. Now this new player wanting to run mission has to train weapon skills, tanking skills,core skills and piloting skills. Each one of those paths makes the wall tremendously bigger.

I guess I should have explained my post better but it would have been the biggest wall of text ever.
I really hope that I am making sense.
Prekaz
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#93 - 2013-03-04 21:01:57 UTC
Oof. I give up.

Thread summary: Dunning-Kruger poster-child has all the answers, will copy+paste them until you agree.
Vin King
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-03-04 21:04:43 UTC
Prekaz wrote:
Vin King wrote:
It doesn't feel as if there's enough information presented to new players in the game as to what direction they should go in sometimes.


Well, that's sort of the thing - there really isn't a direction they "should" go. It's entirely dependent on what you want to do.

Also, I think a lot of people get hung up on flying a given ship or ship class as being something they want to do. New players will frequently say something like, "I want to fly a battleship," instead of, "I want to run level 4 missions," whereas older players generally recognize that ships are frequently-interchangeable tools for accomplishing whatever it is you actually want to do, and not, themselves, the thing that you do.


I knew at the time I wrote that that I should probably clarify what I meant by direction a little better. No, I am not advocating a clear path for everything. Trying to figure out progression in certain things can be very very unclear, and a process of trial and error that ends with you doing a week's worth of training only to find out you still don't have enough of some skill you weren't aware of that prevents you from doing it.

Proud member of the New Order of HighSec
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#95 - 2013-03-04 21:05:26 UTC
Vin King wrote:
I've been playing for just over a month now, and I have to admit, the skill system is still a bit boggling and arcane to me. I can investigate simple questions such as "What does it take to fit T2 guns on my boat?" and get an answer and follow it, only to find out when I get there, I still can't fit T2 guns on my boat because I don't have enough cpu/power/smurfberries/etc. Trying to figure out what skills I need to do various things typically ends in me finding a guide someone wrote, and hoping it's somewhat accurate. It doesn't feel as if there's enough information presented to new players in the game as to what direction they should go in sometimes.


Thank you Sir I really need posts like yours to explain my whole idea.
You need months of training before you can fit those modules because of CPU and PG.
Now after months you can finally fit those t2 guns but now you want to try something new.
Guess what? You just waited for months of training for one role. The next role that has your interest that's another
couple of months to wait. This isn't even advanced roles that I am talking about.

If we had a system where we could train for two roles at once new players would rejoice.
Then they could for example still mine and use that isk to PVP. Since now they can train mining which is one role and weapon skills etc which is the total opposite.
Mining has nothing to with PVP and that's a totally different role.
If I just started playing the game and I got to the "great SP wall" and some one said " hey you can train for two roles so you aren't stuck with mining". That would be great and allot of people wouldn't quit.
This is an example BTW.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#96 - 2013-03-04 21:10:52 UTC
Prekaz wrote:
Vin King wrote:
It doesn't feel as if there's enough information presented to new players in the game as to what direction they should go in sometimes.


Well, that's sort of the thing - there really isn't a direction they "should" go. It's entirely dependent on what you want to do.

Also, I think a lot of people get hung up on flying a given ship or ship class as being something they want to do. New players will frequently say something like, "I want to fly a battleship," instead of, "I want to run level 4 missions," whereas older players generally recognize that ships are frequently-interchangeable tools for accomplishing whatever it is you actually want to do, and not, themselves, the thing that you do.


This game would so great with a role system.
It would make thing allot easier for new players to help them with the "SP wall".
Imagine you could train 2 roles at once. If they place skills in roles and you could do 2 at a time EVE would be great.
That's why people have so many ALTS. One alt is a miner the other PVP for example.
You know a game is broken when people have to pay for 2-5 accounts just to have their monthly fun.
There would be more players sticking around to make $ off of instead of banking in of the hooked vets.
Since they know the game is great and have multiple accounts to do different roles.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#97 - 2013-03-04 21:11:37 UTC
Prekaz wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


I will say it again this post is about new players and the 'SP wall".
Go read one of my earlier replies about roles. Maybe then you will understand what I mean :).


There is no "SP wall".


Since you missed it.
This is the wall that I speak of.
My point is this...

As the game progresses the "SP wall" keeps on getting bigger.
When you play a game you don't want to stick to one specific role and tunnel vision it to be good.
You want to experience multiple roles and see different sides of everything.
In eve you simply cannot do that.
Mining for new players is the worst thing I could imagine for them...
Sitting there mining with low skills when they are simply fueling the bigger players.
To be good at mining and actually breach the wall to be effective you need mining skills and refinery skills.
That's 2 totally different skill paths that makes the wall even bigger.
Now this is only an example... So say this new player gets sick of mining. Guess what?
You are stuck with mining since it would open up a third path where you have to now start training.
That makes the wall even bigger. You want to still train mining and refining to be good but now you want to pvp or run missions. That increase in roles makes the SP training 3x harder... You have to step back and see just how useless new players feel. Now this new player wanting to run mission has to train weapon skills, tanking skills,core skills and piloting skills. Each one of those paths makes the wall tremendously bigger.

I guess I should have explained my post better but it would have been the biggest wall of text ever.
I really hope that I am making sense.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#98 - 2013-03-04 21:18:18 UTC
Prekaz wrote:
Oof. I give up.

Thread summary: Dunning-Kruger poster-child has all the answers, will copy+paste them until you agree.

Oooh I like you very much.
Prekaz
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#99 - 2013-03-04 21:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Prekaz
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Prekaz wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


I will say it again this post is about new players and the 'SP wall".
Go read one of my earlier replies about roles. Maybe then you will understand what I mean :).


There is no "SP wall".


Since you missed it.
This is the wall that I speak of.
My point is this...

As the game progresses the "SP wall" keeps on getting bigger.
When you play a game you don't want to stick to one specific role and tunnel vision it to be good.
You want to experience multiple roles and see different sides of everything.
In eve you simply cannot do that.
Mining for new players is the worst thing I could imagine for them...
Sitting there mining with low skills when they are simply fueling the bigger players.
To be good at mining and actually breach the wall to be effective you need mining skills and refinery skills.
That's 2 totally different skill paths that makes the wall even bigger.
Now this is only an example... So say this new player gets sick of mining. Guess what?
You are stuck with mining since it would open up a third path where you have to now start training.
That makes the wall even bigger. You want to still train mining and refining to be good but now you want to pvp or run missions. That increase in roles makes the SP training 3x harder... You have to step back and see just how useless new players feel. Now this new player wanting to run mission has to train weapon skills, tanking skills,core skills and piloting skills. Each one of those paths makes the wall tremendously bigger.

I guess I should have explained my post better but it would have been the biggest wall of text ever.
I really hope that I am making sense.


I didn't miss it. What I'm asserting is that it's poppycock, and that, with respect to Eve and the many nuances of its interconnected systems, you are incompetent to the point that you lack even the vaguest notion of the depths of that incompetence.

This leads you to believe that you hold the solutions to what you, in your incompetence, have perceived to be problems.

As an example: You clearly have yet to grasp the fact that the opportunity cost inherent in the skill system is a major driving force behind the functionality of the Eve economy.

Hasn't even come REMOTELY close to dawning on you, yet, that homogeneity in skill training - which is really what you're promoting here - would, by definition, kill off a huge portion of economic incentive. When everyone can do everything, nobody needs anyone else to do anything. If it's trivial for me train a combat-miner-industrial pilot, why the **** wouldn't I do that? And once I've done that, why would I ever buy minerals on the market? Or ships for that matter? I can mine on my own. I can build on my own. I can fight on my own. What do I need an economy for, now?

The "problem" you are complaining about is a feature upon which the ENTIRE rest of the game is completely reliant. It is, literally, a requirement that not everyone gets to participate in every role on a whim. It was built that way, ON PURPOSE, and you - some arrogant, know-nothing scrub with a bought character - are sitting here trying to tell us that, for the good of the game, it must be changed to suit you and your impatient friends, without even a moment's consideration for why it was built that way, or what impact such a change would have outside of the tiny, insignificant portion of the game you're familiar with.

And for the love of god, please spare us any more of this insipid nonsense about new player retention. The game is currently enjoying the highest PCU numbers it has seen since the Great Monocle Debacle, so that argument is a non-starter.

Earlier, I was humoring you. I'm quite certain that, short of hopping in a capital ship, whatever the **** your friends wanted to do, it would not have taken them "years" of training to do it. Had you furnished an actual reply to the question (instead of copy-pasting the same ignorant, uninformed drivel over and over and over again), I probably could have given you realistic time estimates, as well as a host of intermediate activities for fun and profit to be done along the way.
Filip Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-03-04 21:31:04 UTC
OP is just unexperienced player.

I started playing 3 months ago and I don't feel that there is any "SP wall"

I have fun, can do almost anything and I haven't even joined corp yet. (Will do soon)