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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#41 - 2013-03-03 22:10:40 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Make a trial account. Forget about the contacts you have made over the long periods of time that you have been playing.
With no help from anyone like a normal new player will be exposed too, go see just how useless you truely are in the first few months to a year of eve..


*Looks at less than year old main character*. Nope, not feeling useless today. Didn't feel useless in the first week I played (and yes, I do remember that, it wasn't that long ago), didn't feel useless in the first month either.
A month old character is far from useless unless the player's convinced they can't do anything without a year of training.

And no, go back and read what I wrote, with all your talk of 'character assassinations', you ignored everything but the last sentence.

You bought a character that probably has been specifically designed to be a perfect battleship and Tengu pilot (full T2 fit most likely) and do nothing else, that's what's done on the character bazaar, train and sell characters with very narrow specialisations, that's not how one would typically train or fly for the first 2 years of their main and 2 years are not required to fly a battleship at a good competency level, nor would it be something where you're sitting useless in station until the training's finished.

Train frigates, fly frigates, they're loads of fun (ask the RvB guys). Maybe train destroyers or maybe skip them for cruisers. Fly cruisers, they can also be loads of fun too. Get a battlecruiser, or maybe go straight for T2 frigates, etc, etc.


Narrow specializations is a huge advantage.
Something a new player won't have.
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-03-03 22:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Debra Tao
There is so much wrong in your post. Also please read carefully my posts, i have mentioned that i bought a char on my first post but that doesn't make "all my posts pointless". Again, basic logic.

You have mentioned buying a char, it happens that in the process you displays basic error in your choice. Errors that are linked to understanding what matters in skill training.
Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-03-03 22:15:57 UTC
Quote:
character assassination

You like to use that phrase a lot, don't you? Big smile

Quote:
The second day of my trial account I accidentally found a WH and inside of that WH I found 2 mag sites with no sleepers.
I analyzed the cans and opened them. Went to the second site I found and did the same.
Didn't even know what I just did was virtually impossible.

Not only did you accidentally find a WH, you also found 2 mag sites with no sleepers! On your 2nd day no less! Big smile

I'd like to learn more! Please continue. Big smile
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#44 - 2013-03-03 22:17:09 UTC
It's funny just how broken the internet is.
Here I wanted to discuss how punishing this game is for new players.
Talk to the right person.
All I got is a bunch off butthurt nerds.

This isn't about me or you.
This is about all the new players that feel useless.
If CCP showed you the stats of actual players in EVE, you would see just how few people there is.
Very few people only have one account.
Allot of people I spoke to have an average of 2-5 accounts.
You should speak to miners. They have so many accounts.
My stat of unique players being 30-50% of the population is probably not even off by much.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#45 - 2013-03-03 22:20:52 UTC
Debra Tao wrote:
There is so much wrong in your post. Also please read carefully my posts, i have mentioned that i bought a char on my first post but that doesn't make "all my posts pointless". Again, basic logic.

You have mentioned buying a char, it happens that in the process you displays basic error in your choice. Errors that are linked to understanding what matters in skill training.


Sorry you don't make much sense. That last sentence read it.

So this post is about new players and how punishing the game is for them.
We both cheated.
That means we saw the SP wall and paid $ to bulldoze over it.
You prove just what my post is about get it?
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#46 - 2013-03-03 22:20:59 UTC
You can buy SP in form of a toon from bazaar but you cannot buy game knowledge and experience. And you are clear proof of that.

Everyone of us started lost and without SP needed to fly shinies and do cool stuff.

Chill da frakk down, keep playing or GTFO. Why would anybody play the game he hates? That's just like most st00pid thing you can do with your time and money.

Invalid signature format

Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-03-03 22:25:01 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
It's funny just how broken the internet is.
Here I wanted to discuss how punishing this game is for new players.
Talk to the right person.
All I got is a bunch off butthurt nerds.

This isn't about me or you.
This is about all the new players that feel useless.
If CCP showed you the stats of actual players in EVE, you would see just how few people there is.
Very few people only have one account.
Allot of people I spoke to have an average of 2-5 accounts.
You should speak to miners. They have so many accounts.
My stat of unique players being 30-50% of the population is probably not even off by much.

Yes. Fascinating, isn't it?
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-03-03 22:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Debra Tao
Hefty TheFirst wrote:

That means we saw the SP wall and paid $ to bulldoze over it.



I didn't pay with real money or PLEX, but with isk i earned. Big difference in what you are saying.

There is a minor problem about new players getting into the game, i don't deny it. I consider it part of the "grinding" that happens in all MMO and in EVE that with that initial grinding comes game knowledge, i think that i had enough knowledge to not make mistake with a higher level of SP.
That's not because i bought a char that i have to think that SP are a huge problem for new player, yeah that's annoying but you can still have a lot of fun. That's not a big issue, you don't need to talk about this with a Dev and your stats are worth nothing. P
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#49 - 2013-03-03 22:26:29 UTC
Frank Millar wrote:
Quote:
character assassination

You like to use that phrase a lot, don't you? Big smile

Quote:
The second day of my trial account I accidentally found a WH and inside of that WH I found 2 mag sites with no sleepers.
I analyzed the cans and opened them. Went to the second site I found and did the same.
Didn't even know what I just did was virtually impossible.

Not only did you accidentally find a WH, you also found 2 mag sites with no sleepers! On your 2nd day no less! Big smile

I'd like to learn more! Please continue. Big smile


That single moment is why I love the game so much.
Freelancer is one of my top 5 games.

You see without that big moment I would still be stuck doing stupid stuff like grinding lvl2 missions.
My 2 month old account can't even use the isk I made 2 months ago.
If making this post doesn't help I could just physically go to CCP for an interview since I like this game so much.
I just want to speak to the right people. Too many new players can't see the great things that are hidden behind that SP wall.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#50 - 2013-03-03 22:33:49 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
You can buy SP in form of a toon from bazaar but you cannot buy game knowledge and experience. And you are clear proof of that.

Everyone of us started lost and without SP needed to fly shinies and do cool stuff.

Chill da frakk down, keep playing or GTFO. Why would anybody play the game he hates? That's just like most st00pid thing you can do with your time and money.


I am clear proof. Proof of what exactly? I have been playing this game for 2 months and for that amount of time I have played and what I have accomplished I'm pretty proud.
See this post isn't about me but the high rate of new players that quit.
As far as a new player goes I think I did very well.
Can you say that you made 170m on your second day of trial?
No help, no guidance from friends?
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#51 - 2013-03-03 23:35:47 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


Again just character assassination.


Inigo Montoya wants a word with you.
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-03-03 23:39:59 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:

As far as a new player goes I think I did very well.
Can you say that you made 170m on your second day of trial?
No help, no guidance from friends?


Oh this is amazing, now you are taking credits for a lucky event ?

P.S. this isn't intended as an assassination, please talk to my lawyer if this message has hurt your honor. We can settle this in a duel, undock, Jita 4-4.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-03-04 00:10:37 UTC
this is sh*t.
there's a ton of stuff to do in eve for brand new players.

you DONT need all skills at 5 to be effective.
skills at 4 are, generally, 90-95% as effective as skills at 5 for anything a new player is likely to be doing.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#54 - 2013-03-04 01:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.

I think it takes under 2 hours to fit a warp disruptor so you can head out and start hero-tackling.

There are several large entities that accept 0-day characters too, if you have some time in their online community, for example dreddit / fweddit have gotten people into the mix in lowsec and nulsec within about 2 hours.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:
My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics.

You weren't playing EVE then, that's a common first mistake.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:
So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.

Sounds like mistakes 2 and 3 there. You developed SP greed instead of having fun, and you bought a character without knowledge of how to use it.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

Unlike WoW though, in EVE you don't need endgame level to have fun though.

I hated being forced to grind 5-10 levels every WoW expansion just to be able to have fun. I was a Paladin main tank (and guild officer) in a raiding guild (#3 on server), and saw all of WoW and done all the personal and raid achievements and special mounts, up to Uldum which is when I quit, because I had been made redundant by dual talent specs and new classes. I wasn't the only one it seems, as my guild apparently dissolved about a month later I later learned.

I came to EVE where I started having fun from day one, and bought a full year subscription the same day.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:
So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

I think first you have to convince people there is a problem. It seems more like the tutorials system could be better, to guide people like you and your friends into having fun from day one, and not worrying about skills.

Skills should be looked at as making you better at something you already have fun at, rather than roadblocks to having fun.

I started before Apocrypha, so the "tutorial" started with placing me in space near a hostile NPC frigate near an asteroid, and that was it. There was no instruction on what to do. I decided I wasn't going to shoot anything until I knew what was up, so I figured out how to warp away. I never could return to that hostile NPC frigate (didn't know about bookmarks). Thus ended the tutorial. Yet I still figured out how to have fun without it.

I think CCP realizes the tutorial could be better, but ideas on improving it should be posted in the ideas forum.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#55 - 2013-03-04 02:02:55 UTC
My 2 cents:

First off, I played Freelancer too. I was an admin on 2 different servers and had some global stats there.
Awesome game, but it was so small compared to EVE. Small solar systems, small community. NO payed accounts. And I could literally log in and fly the best ship in the game 5 hours later.

With EVE being a payed subscription, I do NOT want new players to be able to do what I do in a short amount of time. I have payed, played, and learned almost everything the hard way. When I see a multi-year veteran player, I have to respect that he has done the same. Hopefully when you have played for some time, you will feel the same.

As for new players haveing fun? Fun is a state of mind.
A good group of players can lose every ship and still have fun.
A bad group of players can win everything in EVE, and still log off mad.

As for friends. Keep your RL friends seperate from your EVE friends.

As for skills: I have like,, 130 skills at level V. They do not save my ship when I make a mistake. They do not make me have 'more fun'. But they do give me some milestones, goals, intermitent achievements. And I earned every one.
I am still learning things all the time, that are not in any skill book.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#56 - 2013-03-04 02:32:21 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


Again just character assassination.


Inigo Montoya wants a word with you.


I was gonna link the video, but hey, that works too.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#57 - 2013-03-04 02:57:44 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
Eve has more subs ALTS than ever.


FIXED
An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-03-04 05:42:49 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

You weren't playing EVE then, that's a common first mistake.


Maybe the OP is dumb but he raises a couple of good point, one being that a new player cannot do much in the first couple of months. You cannot realistically pvp all day long and as you mentioned most of the large entities that accept day 1 toon are community-based.

So they have to fill their day with pve and pve in EVE is horrible, lvl1 missions are really easy but some lvl2s missions will be tricky/impossible to run with poor skills in a cruiser, even with a good fit. I ended up after my first week wondering what i could do... Yes new players can mine and it's even easier now with the venture but that's a very specific gameplay, i would define it as "boring as f*ck". An active new player, that don't like mindless grinding and wants to play Eve maybe 1-2 hours per day just won't have much to do.

Over time the problem solves itself, players are able to do pvp with being podded in the first few seconds, and to run missions/rats/explore effectively. Myself i just went all-in with trading while learning about the community and the game but then again trading is a very specific type of gameplay.


I am not saying that this is a "huge problem" nor do i want newbies to be effective in high-end ships quickly but i think there is room for content here and CCP should work on that. Ofc you can find a charitable carebear that will let you salvage and loot some wrecks in lvl4s... that's not really fun either and you are left with the impression to clean the dishes. And a game that relies on vets'kindness to provide content to newbies... isn't that a flawed design ?
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#59 - 2013-03-04 06:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Candy Oshea
Debra Tao wrote:
pve in EVE is horrible


Needs more expletives.

On topic, Games like WoW have an entry barrier for there end game content, which is "gear", "gear" takes alot of time to gather & is a grind, before players are exposed to the end game content (raids) You don't just join WoW as a noob & do endgame content straight away, you have spend time "leveling" & "gear grinding. Fanatical players will rush & spend countless days grinding fast to acheive "geared". for instance my first WoW character took me 2 months to level, and about 3-4 months to gear. to be ready for end-game. there's fanatics that do it in a week.

You can't do that in EVE, the faster you grind isk/mine/LP by missions or w/e, has no correlation between isk & skillqueue.

And that's the key issue, players come from fast paced games where "grind" means "skill" & expect eve to be the same, well it isn't.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!

Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#60 - 2013-03-04 10:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
OP, I'm having more fun in this 1.5m SP character than I have ever had in my PvE mains. In fact, I think of Zaps as my main now since my high SP characters just seem stale in comparison.

One of the most important things you can learn about EVE is that the skill point journey is very enjoyable. Sure, a four year old thinks you need to 'get a bigger ship so I can get the baddies' but I realise that small ship PvP is fantastic:

1. Cheap (let's you learn by lots of mistakes)
2. Very fun
3. Arguably harder than large ship PvP due to the short time frame

Remember that skill points does not equate to skill. I can guarantee that a noob who buys a high SP character will die in lots of expensive explosions.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.