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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#421 - 2013-02-12 19:18:36 UTC

What a drama. Ugh

A botter, a clear cheater, was caught and some CSM member thinks he has a right to get answers where he got all that he was entitled to.

Just keep on defending cheaters, will look good on your resume.
Nice boomerang btw. Lol
Din Chao
#422 - 2013-02-12 19:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Din Chao
Finde learth wrote:
You think CCP can remove all your assets and ISK for a 14 days ban after 21 days?

ISK confirmed to have been obtained through botting, that was tied up in goods that were then liquidated prior to self-immolation? Yes.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#423 - 2013-02-12 19:19:20 UTC
supporting wardec evasion and supporting botting go hand in hand, this development isn't surprising
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#424 - 2013-02-12 19:21:25 UTC
Din Chao wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
You think CCP can remove all your assets and ISK for a 14 days ban after 21 days?

ISK confirmed to have been obtained through botting, that was tied up in goods that were then liquidated prior to self-immolation? Yes.


CCP never said it. CCP just confirmed "John" used bot.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#425 - 2013-02-12 19:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Finde learth wrote:
Dan Leviathan wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.


Can you explain why remove all ISK because of a 14 days ban?


Can you explain how you are possibly this ignorant?

You think CCP can remove all your assets and ISK for a 14 days ban after 21 days?


If assets and ISK are acquired in a way that breaks the EULA, then yes, the assets aren't yours they are merely on loan from CCP

EULA wrote:
Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP


You and everybody else agreed to it when you started to play the game.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#426 - 2013-02-12 19:23:25 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
Dan Leviathan wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.


Can you explain why remove all ISK because of a 14 days ban?


Can you explain how you are possibly this ignorant?

You think CCP can remove all your assets and ISK for a 14 days ban after 21 days?


Yes, they can. They even can disallow you access to their game for NO reason at all.
Start reading the EULA. Their game. Their server. Their rules. You don't like them? Go somewhere else. It's not rocket science. It's all in the EULA, you agreed with. Multiple times.
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#427 - 2013-02-12 19:26:01 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
Dan Leviathan wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.


Can you explain why remove all ISK because of a 14 days ban?


Can you explain how you are possibly this ignorant?

You think CCP can remove all your assets and ISK for a 14 days ban after 21 days?


Yes, they can. They even can disallow you access to their game for NO reason at all.
Start reading the EULA. Their game. Their server. Their rules. You don't like them? Go somewhere else. It's not rocket science. It's all in the EULA, you agreed with. Multiple times.

So the topic is right
Abus Finkel
Caldari Capital Construction Inc.
#428 - 2013-02-12 19:26:32 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I think it goes a bit deeper than that. The tone of the OP on the E-Uni forums was obviously geared towards making this a personal attack from CCP on E-Uni. IMO he implicitly endorsed botting and attempted to hold (hundreds of?) noob accounts over CCP's head to force them to give him the ISK. It's made worse by the fact that he knew all of this beforehand.

I'm not sure from where you are getting that he supports botting or even wants the isk back. The heart of the matter is (in my opinion at least) this:
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
The petition was answered by the same CCP member, with another canned response, stating that there is no escalation for security matters and that they operate separately from customer support, the matter had been brought to the attention of their Director of Security, and to respond if I have any questions or concerns.

And then, its no longer about the ISK.

I started to become quite worried. The dialogue at this point suggests that the security team are operating with no oversight at all, and implies that there is no auditing or checks and balances for their actions, especially as there is no recourse for anyone who wishes to dispute their claims.

Which I believe CCP Sreegs has addressed in this thread, and I think if that had just been communicated to Kelduum in private he wouldn't have taken this public at all.
I like this game and I like most things CCP has done with it recently, but I think most people will agree with me that communication is not their strongest side.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#429 - 2013-02-12 19:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Sandrestal wrote:
Didn't someone at CCP once say, "Greed is Good"? I just find it humurous that the owners of the game can set a standard and then ban people for doing exaclty as CCP exclaimed. Gets so confusing at times.


And look where that got them, IIRC we, the playerbase, closed down at least one of the major trade hubs and many of us unsubbed multiple alt accounts in protest at the foul vision of future Eve portrayed in the leaked "Greed is good" internal news letter.

I think CCP learned something from that, namely "You do not mess with people who like to play at being bloodthirsty, psychotic demigods", especially when they hold the future of your game in their hands.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#430 - 2013-02-12 19:29:29 UTC
Abus Finkel wrote:

Which I believe CCP Sreegs has addressed in this thread, and I think if that had just been communicated to Kelduum in private he wouldn't have taken this public at all.
I like this game and I like most things CCP has done with it recently, but I think most people will agree with me that communication is not their strongest side.


He was told. He didn't like the answer and so started many threads.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#431 - 2013-02-12 19:29:44 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
So the topic is right


Are you trying hard to be this stupid, or does it come naturally?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#432 - 2013-02-12 19:31:17 UTC
Abus Finkel wrote:

Which I believe CCP Sreegs has addressed in this thread, and I think if that had just been communicated to Kelduum in private he wouldn't have taken this public at all.
I like this game and I like most things CCP has done with it recently, but I think most people will agree with me that communication is not their strongest side.


That's what you don't seem to get. It was communicated to Kelduum in private.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#433 - 2013-02-12 19:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven
So when we as players have Evemon installed which per default has "collect cached market data" enabled we are considered a botter now cause Evemon uses the cache files outside of the client? GF CCP Screegs

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#434 - 2013-02-12 19:32:03 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
So the topic is right


Are you trying hard to be this stupid, or does it come naturally?


I think the term dense is somewhat inadequate in this instance.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#435 - 2013-02-12 19:32:05 UTC
The following quote is from the Eve Uni forum thread regarding this incident and specifically directed at Sreeg:http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=63837&sid=d6f3b3374befacbdfb1b03be09a9c79d&start=120#p559366

kelduum wrote:
Unfortunately he's in a position where he can't seem to be wrong at all, and is now personally attacking me (which is getting legally dangerous as my identity is public record).

I have no way to disprove any of his claims without being banned for either revealing petition content, or other NDA breach.


Interesting. Do we really need someone like this on the CSM? He can spark a **** storm of baseless accusations and then respond like this when rightfully called on his shenanigans

Calls for immediate removal from the CSM should begin.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#436 - 2013-02-12 19:32:33 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
So the topic is right


Are you trying hard to be this stupid, or does it come naturally?

Won't CCL delete your post like this?
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#437 - 2013-02-12 19:34:04 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
Din Chao wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
You think CCP can remove all your assets and ISK for a 14 days ban after 21 days?

ISK confirmed to have been obtained through botting, that was tied up in goods that were then liquidated prior to self-immolation? Yes.


CCP never said it. CCP just confirmed "John" used bot.


Ever hear of deterrence? Basically, the idea here is letting people know that if you bot, you get punished. Part if that punishment is confiscation of isk acquired through illegal means. And if more isk is confiscated from the offender, good. Maybe over punishment will deter other botters.

And read the EULA. Ccp can do near anything they want. Tomorrow we could wake up to Hello Kitty online in place of eve. Weay hate it, we may.cancel our subscriptions, but ccp will have abided by their EULA and we won't be able to do anything about it.

So if you don't like it, stop subscribing. Otherwise, don't bot and don't be surprised when botters get screwed.
Abus Finkel
Caldari Capital Construction Inc.
#438 - 2013-02-12 19:35:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Abus Finkel wrote:

Which I believe CCP Sreegs has addressed in this thread, and I think if that had just been communicated to Kelduum in private he wouldn't have taken this public at all.
I like this game and I like most things CCP has done with it recently, but I think most people will agree with me that communication is not their strongest side.


He was told. He didn't like the answer and so started many threads.

How do you know that? Have you read CCP's responses to his petitions?
All we know is that CCP Sreegs says he was told and Kelduum says he wasn't.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#439 - 2013-02-12 19:40:15 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
The following quote is from the Eve Uni forum thread regarding this incident and specifically directed at Sreeg:http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=63837&sid=d6f3b3374befacbdfb1b03be09a9c79d&start=120#p559366

kelduum wrote:
Unfortunately he's in a position where he can't seem to be wrong at all, and is now personally attacking me (which is getting legally dangerous as my identity is public record).

I have no way to disprove any of his claims without being banned for either revealing petition content, or other NDA breach.


Interesting. Do we really need someone like this on the CSM? He can spark a **** storm of baseless accusations and then respond like this when rightfully called on his shenanigans

Calls for immediate removal from the CSM should begin.


An hour ago I thought calls for Kel to resign were a bit over the top. Reading that thread you linked, I am no longer of that opinion.
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings
War Rats
#440 - 2013-02-12 19:40:41 UTC
Abus Finkel wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Abus Finkel wrote:

Which I believe CCP Sreegs has addressed in this thread, and I think if that had just been communicated to Kelduum in private he wouldn't have taken this public at all.
I like this game and I like most things CCP has done with it recently, but I think most people will agree with me that communication is not their strongest side.


He was told. He didn't like the answer and so started many threads.

How do you know that? Have you read CCP's responses to his petitions?
All we know is that CCP Sreegs says he was told and Kelduum says he wasn't.


Even if he lied (which he didn't) it's irrelevant. Quit whining like a spoiled child.