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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#401 - 2013-02-12 18:43:03 UTC
Shun Makoto wrote:
I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it.


He was able to modify 30 orders a minute, and was doing so each 10-20 minutes, i think we know all we need to know.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#402 - 2013-02-12 18:45:29 UTC
Yvsyvs wrote:
Exactly this! I have no clue if this guy was really boting, but who decides what is humanly possible?


You can't modify 30 orders in one minute, without the process being automated.
Darth Khasei
Wavestar Business Ventures Inc.
#403 - 2013-02-12 18:45:30 UTC
Respect. Cool

With respect ALL bots must die period end of discussion.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#404 - 2013-02-12 18:45:32 UTC
Heimdallofasgard wrote:
To be honest this sounds like a combination of :

1. Kelduum getting dollar signs in his eyes at the possibility of becoming space rich
2. Using his position as a CSM member as a pedestal to try get his own way. Which quite frankly I think is an abuse of the trust of people who voted for him.


I think it goes a bit deeper than that. The tone of the OP on the E-Uni forums was obviously geared towards making this a personal attack from CCP on E-Uni. IMO he implicitly endorsed botting and attempted to hold (hundreds of?) noob accounts over CCP's head to force them to give him the ISK. It's made worse by the fact that he knew all of this beforehand.

And let's go back to what Sreegs said:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
At what level is complete fabrication designed specifically to cause my team and my company's reputation harm acceptable?


Yes, Kelduum specifically and willfully crossed this line.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#405 - 2013-02-12 18:46:30 UTC
Yvsyvs wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA.


So pretty much any South Korean Statcraft player is doomed to face false charges and banning, then. Lovely.



Exactly this! I have no clue if this guy was really boting, but who decides what is humanly possible?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVEvwNbeK6I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-ofosFtuqs,


UI lag decides.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
digi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#406 - 2013-02-12 18:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: digi
Liang Nuren wrote:


I think it goes a bit deeper than that. The tone of the OP on the E-Uni forums was obviously geared towards making this a personal attack from CCP on E-Uni. IMO he implicitly endorsed botting and attempted to hold (hundreds of?) noob accounts over CCP's head to force them to give him the ISK. It's made worse by the fact that he knew all of this beforehand.

And let's go back to what Sreegs said:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
At what level is complete fabrication designed specifically to cause my team and my company's reputation harm acceptable?


Yes, Kelduum specifically and willfully crossed this line.

-Liang


How much is the EVE character name of "John" worth to the group?
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#407 - 2013-02-12 18:47:55 UTC
Heimdallofasgard wrote:
To be honest this sounds like a combination of :

1. Kelduum getting dollar signs in his eyes at the possibility of becoming space rich
2. Using his position as a CSM member as a pedestal to try get his own way. Which quite frankly I think is an abuse of the trust of people who voted for him.


He needs to be removed from the CSM.

He supports botting. He can verbally say he doesnt but words are worth just about nothing when compared to actions. His actions tell me that he supports botting in so far as he would go this far to keep a donation completely funded through botting. We dont need a CSM who has such a "self" oriented and twisted view of the rules that everyone has to live under.

The Eve player base deserves better. Eve University deserves better.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings
War Rats
#408 - 2013-02-12 18:50:02 UTC
I'm fairly certain that there are nuances allowing the entire server to be taken down right now never to be put up again w/o legal repercussion. CCP has a right to be bold. So why not try treating them w/ some respect? We as a player-base are responsible for chauffeuring Eve into the next era, and we can only do that through good-willed collaboration. Threads like this will scare off prospective players. It makes it look like the game is failing, on its last leg or something. And it doesn't have to be. So many "veteran" players w/ there bots are screwing everything up for those of us who are just entering the game. I'm going to stick around, because I have faith in Eve and CCP. But I consider myself a stoic. Please, can we just agree this guy was botting and move on? Quit trying to stifle Eve's potential out of boredom. Sreegs, ilu!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#409 - 2013-02-12 18:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
All I got from this thread is that someone got caught botting, CCP made a minor mistake and forgot to confiscate his isk so he transferred it to the ingame equivalent of a charity, CCP corrected their mistake and removed the ill gotten gains, the recipient of the isk asked why? and got all upset when they wouldn't tell him because it was none of his business.

While I disagree with CCP Sreegs stance on scraping the cache files, I applaud him on both his civil responses to the questioning of his teams integrity and the actions taken against the offender.

Bots are a scourge in many games, it's good to see a company taking the problem seriously and taking the appropriate actions when they need to.

Market bots are something that players can't do much about, sure we can use their programming against them and mess with their algorithms to make a profit, but ultimately it's down to CCP to sort them out as they rarely/never leave station. NPC hunting bots (yes there is such a thing) and mining bots are something that we as players can do something about, we can make them untenable to use, by the removal of their ships via ingame mechanics, and then reporting them via the "report bot" function.

TL;DR Botter got caught botting, botter got temp banned, botter tried to hide his isk and then biomassed.
Burn the bots and Eve becomes a better place.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#410 - 2013-02-12 19:01:07 UTC
Altrue wrote:

PS : Fun fact, micro-trading (or "real life botting") is commonly used in reality. It made me laugh that such behaviour is only denigrated in a virtual world.


Fun fact, nobody cares because RL botters tend to lose money and fix themselves over time.
Even "macro" institutional botting and high frequency trading are losing profitability.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#411 - 2013-02-12 19:05:28 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.


Can you explain why remove all ISK because of a 14 days ban?
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#412 - 2013-02-12 19:06:24 UTC
Everyone can agree that Eve is a better place with just one less botter ,and all his illegal isk,disrupting and manipulating the game we all love.

Why then are we "ok" with a CSM member openly manipulating, arguing and accusing CCP of wrong doing just because he couldnt keep the isk rewards earned through a significant breech of the EULA and one of the biggest risks to fair game play in EVE?

This is the real story here. CCP caught a botter and punished them and confiscated their illegally earned isk. Thats what should be happening to botters. CCP should be getting a pat on the back for this. Instead, we have this witch hunt led by a CSM member.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#413 - 2013-02-12 19:06:42 UTC
Dan Leviathan wrote:
I'm fairly certain that there are nuances allowing the entire server to be taken down right now never to be put up again w/o legal repercussion. CCP has a right to be bold. So why not try treating them w/ some respect? We as a player-base are responsible for chauffeuring Eve into the next era, and we can only do that through good-willed collaboration. Threads like this will scare off prospective players. It makes it look like the game is failing, on its last leg or something. And it doesn't have to be. So many "veteran" players w/ there bots are screwing everything up for those of us who are just entering the game. I'm going to stick around, because I have faith in Eve and CCP. But I consider myself a stoic. Please, can we just agree this guy was botting and move on? Quit trying to stifle Eve's potential out of boredom. Sreegs, ilu!


What worried me about this matter is that CCP caught a blatant moron. That is someone acting in a clearly, unmistakably non-human way. That's cool.

But what about the other, smarter market botters? I know they are officially counted at about 10 (ten) but it's more than enough to perma-spam thousands of market updates in an unfair way towards the other players.

Any chance we get some stronger bannage on them?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Fraternity.
#414 - 2013-02-12 19:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Heimdallofasgard
Liang Nuren wrote:
Heimdallofasgard wrote:
To be honest this sounds like a combination of :

1. Kelduum getting dollar signs in his eyes at the possibility of becoming space rich
2. Using his position as a CSM member as a pedestal to try get his own way. Which quite frankly I think is an abuse of the trust of people who voted for him.


I think it goes a bit deeper than that. The tone of the OP on the E-Uni forums was obviously geared towards making this a personal attack from CCP on E-Uni. IMO he implicitly endorsed botting and attempted to hold (hundreds of?) noob accounts over CCP's head to force them to give him the ISK. It's made worse by the fact that he knew all of this beforehand.

-Liang


There was a while during the beginning of 2012 iirc, where ccp had the spotlight on botting and mass bans etc... People were both jubilant and worried at the same time, and more aware of the consequences of botting.

I think it's only healthy for EVE that CCP raises awareness of the consequences of botting every couple of months, lest people grow complacent and start thinking it's okay and maybe thinking that they're not being watched.

I for one didn't realise that market scrubbing for places like eve central using evemon was frowned upon. I saw it more of just using an out of game tool like EFT or Dotlan. Now I know ccp's stance on it, I don't think I'll be doing it any more. For me it'd be interesting to hear CCPs opinion on market aggregators like EVE central just so I know what tools I can and can't use, because lord knows the market needs some love :(
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings
War Rats
#415 - 2013-02-12 19:07:17 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.


Can you explain why remove all ISK because of a 14 days ban?


Can you explain how you are possibly this ignorant?
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings
War Rats
#416 - 2013-02-12 19:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dan Leviathan
To all botters: Want to stretch your programming skills? Get on project euler. Heck, you can even solve the problems while playing Eve! I really don't understand botting. The only practical motif would be the gaining of $ in rl. Otherwise, you're just cheating yourself. Are you the same one's who used "gamesharks" to get all the pokemons or smth? Play within the games mechanics, it's not that difficult.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#417 - 2013-02-12 19:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Finde learth wrote:


Can you explain why remove all ISK because of a 14 days ban?


I'll keep it simple.
The ISK was acquired by botting (which is against the EULA), it was then unsuccessfully laundered and confiscated.

It's the same principle as drug money, it's acquired illegally, laundered and confiscated when the authorities find it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#418 - 2013-02-12 19:16:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Altrue wrote:
questions

1- CCP will not comment

2- CCP will not comment

3- Jovians

Fixed that for you... Blink
Sandrestal
Pakistani Taxi Drivers
#419 - 2013-02-12 19:17:13 UTC
Didn't someone at CCP once say, "Greed is Good"? I just find it humurous that the owners of the game can set a standard and then ban people for doing exaclty as CCP exclaimed. Gets so confusing at times.
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#420 - 2013-02-12 19:17:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Finde learth
Dan Leviathan wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.


Can you explain why remove all ISK because of a 14 days ban?


Can you explain how you are possibly this ignorant?

You think CCP can remove all your assets and ISK for a 14 days ban after 21 days?