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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Callie Cross
Tax Code
#281 - 2013-02-12 16:34:05 UTC
It seems to me like CCP Sreegs has provided in this thread most of the information that Kelduum asked for in the first place, and that if this information had been exchanged in the first place, none of this would have been brought up in the forums.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#282 - 2013-02-12 16:36:05 UTC
Cebraio wrote:


From how understood it, John had a tool to read the cache of market orders, calculate the new price and show this information inside the IGB. So all he had to do was: copy-paste the values into his market orders. Last time I checked, reading the cache, calculating values in a 3rd party tool and doing some copy paste was not a banable offense. So CCP changed their mind in a hindsight and made it punishable.

I got this impression from here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601144#post2601144

However, I could be misinformed. John may have used more advanced automation to do even less work by himself (i.e. changing the orders fully automatically). I wouldn't know.

I don't mind losing John as a presumably valuable player, I don't mind E-Uni losing isk they hadn't earned, I don't mind macro users being banned - but I do mind if rules are applied with double standards. If that was the case here, I don't know.


He used a bot.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#283 - 2013-02-12 16:41:41 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:
It seems to me like CCP Sreegs has provided in this thread most of the information that Kelduum asked for in the first place, and that if this information had been exchanged in the first place, none of this would have been brought up in the forums.


They don't need to provide info to the masses. He was botting and got the isk taking away, thats as much info as we need.
David Zahavi
Doomheim
#284 - 2013-02-12 16:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: David Zahavi
Kelduum Revaan has updated his original post, responding to the 3 points made in CCP Sreegs' first post in this thread.

Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Update 2013.02.12:

Quoting from the thread on the EVE forums:

CCP Sreegs wrote:

There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.
3) The only authority higher than the Director of Security for these complaints is the Executive Producer and then the CEO. This is a higher level of escalation than the Customer Service arm and IA automatically looks at our work. I'm not sure why we feel we should be able to escalate higher than the highest reasonable authority but the fact is that this team operates with significant oversight. We believe the issue here to be more that this particular CSM feels he isn't in the loop, something which is quite frankly the only proper way to do business in a unit that handles secrets.

Frankly we're a bit disturbed by the allegations made here given that the person in question waited until they exhausted every resource possible prior to posting this then lamented the lack of an escalation path. Not getting the answer you like isn't a lack of an escalation path and never will be.




I'd love to know what I was selectively reporting exactly, barring the things I cant post, but still...

Replying to each of the points:
1. Then all we needed to be told was "The ISK came from botting". I had asked if this was the case, and was bushed off repeatedly, being told that "its nothing to do with you", despite us actually having the ISK. In fact, this has happened a couple of times in the past when we have had donations which came from botting or RMT, and as the CEO I received a courteous mail outlining what had happened and why the ISK went missing.
2.a) The only words which could be construed as an apology were related to the one week response in the original petition. At no point has an apology for not removing the ISK earlier been made. I'd love to post the text of the petitions and/or other things, but that would get me banned.
2.b) The petition was responded to by one member of CCP staff, at one level, and on asking for it to be escalated, was told there is no escalation at all for the security team. As mentioned, I asked around if anyone knew of another escalation path, and reached dead ends, and statements that there is literally no higher authority than themselves. Again, I can't post this proof.
3. At no point was this explained, anywhere, by anyone. If it had been, then it could of been handled quietly. I'll leave the rest of that section detailing that members of the security team being oversight for the security team as exercise for the reader to determine if they think this is a good idea or not.

Finally, not getting any answer is what causes people to look for an escalation path, at which point being told there is no higher authority (which is now revealed to have been a falsehood) is what causes unnecessary drama like this.

The missing apology, and the missing explanation were what was being asked for. Its nice to have them, finally.
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#285 - 2013-02-12 16:43:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I would like to see much more bot tiers, but oh well.
Anyway, as per using cache files for eve central or so, I would love to pull those mineral and module prices via API from CCP...problem is its not possible yet and I personally dont feel like typing 500-1000 numbers in my spreadsheets every day to see whats worth building manually. Smile


At least you have spreadsheets. With BCs manufacturing tool now broken and not looking like its going to be fixed I might have to see just how much spreadsheet voodoo I can remember from schoolUgh


I know theres several 3rd party tools and number of spreadsheets from other people that usually made them public when they left, but I always missed some information in those or found them even not accurate, so I have wrote mine. Its not easy, but one has actually feeling he really understands how it works and eventually it pays out.

Yeah, I totally forgot the Export XML button here. Anyway, you need to click export for every item you want prices of (as far as I am aware) which almost equals writing downs numbers straight-both sucks a bit. If CCP would create market API where you can pull specific market prices for specific item and with all the bells and whistles as eve-central, that would be really cool. It shouldnt be a big deal, all they need to do is to buy a new piece of hardware to manage the data and send it away, as I can imagine many players would enjoy this and would use it.
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#286 - 2013-02-12 16:44:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

He used a bot.

I doubt you have proof for this claim, but it's ok. The story sounds like he was indeed using a bot and got what he deserved.
Whitehound
#287 - 2013-02-12 16:44:05 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Having worked in internal investigations for over a decade at very large companies I can inform you from experience that this statement is patently false in common practice. I've actually never even heard of this scenario, though I agree with its spirit.

This is a case for this guy.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Callie Cross
Tax Code
#288 - 2013-02-12 16:45:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Callie Cross wrote:
It seems to me like CCP Sreegs has provided in this thread most of the information that Kelduum asked for in the first place, and that if this information had been exchanged in the first place, none of this would have been brought up in the forums.


They don't need to provide info to the masses. He was botting and got the isk taking away, thats as much info as we need.



A private convo between CCP and Kelduum (who was involved directly) isn't the masses. This issue has now been brought to the masses because this very basic and simple information wasn't conveyed in the first place. It's unnecessary, pure and simple.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#289 - 2013-02-12 16:45:35 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cebraio wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
If/when it becomes illegal/impossible to use the cache files, what will happen to the massive amounts of isk players have made using this technique?

Nothing. It wasn't against the rules then, so they can't be punished for it.

John wants to have a word with you.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. John was using automation to modify his market orders, that was obvious from Kelduun's post linked from the OP. Automation of any form outside of what the client provides and what CCP explicitly allows (which as far as I know only includes the Logitech G15 keyboard) is against the EULA and grounds for action by CCP.


From how understood it, John had a tool to read the cache of market orders, calculate the new price and show this information inside the IGB. So all he had to do was: copy-paste the values into his market orders. Last time I checked, reading the cache, calculating values in a 3rd party tool and doing some copy paste was not a banable offense. So CCP changed their mind in a hindsight and made it punishable.

I got this impression from here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601144#post2601144

However, I could be misinformed. John may have used more advanced automation to do even less work by himself (i.e. changing the orders fully automatically). I wouldn't know.

I don't mind losing John as a presumably valuable player, I don't mind E-Uni losing isk they hadn't earned, I don't mind macro users being banned - but I do mind if rules are applied with double standards. If that was the case here, I don't know.

"the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time."
I'm fairly sure updating one order every two seconds for an extended period of time isn't possible at all without using some form of automation. Of course not being a station trader I don't know the limitations of EVE's system with regards to updating orders in rapid succession, but other posts in this thread have indicated that there's some form of throttling implemented that makes this impossible unless he devised a way to work around it - which would also be a violation of the EULA.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Timdogg Ambramotte
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#290 - 2013-02-12 16:47:10 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Callie Cross wrote:
It seems to me like CCP Sreegs has provided in this thread most of the information that Kelduum asked for in the first place, and that if this information had been exchanged in the first place, none of this would have been brought up in the forums.


They don't need to provide info to the masses. He was botting and got the isk taking away, thats as much info as we need.



A private convo between CCP and Kelduum (who was involved directly) isn't the masses. This issue has now been brought to the masses because this very basic and simple information wasn't conveyed in the first place. It's unnecessary, pure and simple.


Thats all he wanted
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#291 - 2013-02-12 16:48:30 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:
It seems to me like CCP Sreegs has provided in this thread most of the information that Kelduum asked for in the first place, and that if this information had been exchanged in the first place, none of this would have been brought up in the forums.


Nothing said in this thread hadn't already been explained prior.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#292 - 2013-02-12 16:48:38 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

He used a bot.

I doubt you have proof for this claim, but it's ok. The story sounds like he was indeed using a bot and got what he deserved.


CCP has the proof, thats all we need to know.
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#293 - 2013-02-12 16:48:46 UTC
If "John" don't leave EVE, keep account alive one year or more or less after 14 days ban, but not really play, then give all isk to E-Uni, Will CCP confiscate again?
Tisisan
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#294 - 2013-02-12 16:49:30 UTC
What scares me here is that it really looks like a player can 1) question a the legality of an action publicly, 2) get an official ccp response saying its ok, 3) do said action, and 4) get banhammered by CCP Screegs who doesn't give a **** what the rest of the company thinks, then laughed at and mocked when you question it.

That's a pretty crappy way to do business.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#295 - 2013-02-12 16:50:33 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Callie Cross wrote:
It seems to me like CCP Sreegs has provided in this thread most of the information that Kelduum asked for in the first place, and that if this information had been exchanged in the first place, none of this would have been brought up in the forums.


They don't need to provide info to the masses. He was botting and got the isk taking away, thats as much info as we need.



A private convo between CCP and Kelduum (who was involved directly) isn't the masses. This issue has now been brought to the masses because this very basic and simple information wasn't conveyed in the first place. It's unnecessary, pure and simple.


And as per CCP policy he had no need to know. Back when we did the ice interdiction we reported hundreds of bots and while it would have been niceif CCP told us they were delt with we have no need or right to know what happened to them.
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#296 - 2013-02-12 16:53:02 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
If "John" don't leave EVE, keep account alive one year or more or less after 14 days ban, but not really play, then give all isk to E-Uni, Will CCP confiscate again?

CCP has confiscated it already, John is biomassed and gone for good. I don't really get your question, sorry.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#297 - 2013-02-12 16:53:14 UTC
Tisisan wrote:
What scares me here is that it really looks like a player can 1) question a the legality of an action publicly, 2) get an official ccp response saying its ok, 3) do said action, and 4) get banhammered by CCP Screegs who doesn't give a **** what the rest of the company thinks, then laughed at and mocked when you question it.

That's a pretty crappy way to do business.


No, its a case of the dirty isk went away and people want it back so will try every way possible to get it back even if it means publicly trying to attack CCP into a corner.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#298 - 2013-02-12 16:54:15 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cebraio wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
If/when it becomes illegal/impossible to use the cache files, what will happen to the massive amounts of isk players have made using this technique?

Nothing. It wasn't against the rules then, so they can't be punished for it.

John wants to have a word with you.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. John was using automation to modify his market orders, that was obvious from Kelduun's post linked from the OP. Automation of any form outside of what the client provides and what CCP explicitly allows (which as far as I know only includes the Logitech G15 keyboard) is against the EULA and grounds for action by CCP.


CCP Sreegs did say he didn't like the idea of using the cache files but it will not get you banned, and while it's no official statement on behalf of CCP as a company, i do think that with position he has within the company his opinion matters.

As things are now players who use third-party tools to manage market orders, have a huge advantage over players who don't use them. This is a nothing new, and people have complaining about it for as long as the cache parsing technique has been known. CCP's standpoint has been that it was allowed as long as you modified the orders yourself, and didn't manipulate the cache files. If they are changing their standpoint on this matter, i think they should make it illegal to use the cache files as soon as possible.

If there was a efficient to get the market data into a spreadsheet, and we are not allowed to parse the cache files, everyone would have the same options to manage their orders. It would greatly reduce the effect of third-party applications, and increase the advantage of understanding the market.

The best trader should be the person with the best understand of how the market works, not the person with the most advanced third-party application. As it is now you can get rich by using the right software, it's not really what eve is about.
Whitehound
#299 - 2013-02-12 16:54:49 UTC
Just for the record, dear CCP Sreegs, I like what you have done and that you take your time to come onto the forum and talk to us. It is very kind of you and one does not get to see this often. So thank you for doing this! Cool

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#300 - 2013-02-12 16:56:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I would like to see much more bot tiers, but oh well.
Anyway, as per using cache files for eve central or so, I would love to pull those mineral and module prices via API from CCP...problem is its not possible yet and I personally dont feel like typing 500-1000 numbers in my spreadsheets every day to see whats worth building manually. Smile


At least you have spreadsheets. With BCs manufacturing tool now broken and not looking like its going to be fixed I might have to see just how much spreadsheet voodoo I can remember from schoolUgh



Depends what you want, really.

http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/ will do all the math for you.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter