These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

the exclusive club of sov space...is it ?

Author
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#81 - 2013-02-06 11:54:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:


Until a multinational does that better and cheaper, putting them out of business, and people like you show up to tell them "tough luck".


Yep, life is about adaptation. The alternative is some unsustainable feel good socialist BS to prop up innefficent small businesses.

No Thanks


Wonder why the USA did not directly give their keys to China since they are more efficient at industry, but instead are flooding the currency markets to keep their money under-appreciated, like they want to avoid that. Those USA socialists... Roll
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#82 - 2013-02-06 12:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Quote:
thx for your input. what you imply is that all alliances that try to carve their space and failed in recent history had the wrong mindset, which i seriously doubt. its just that as the saying goes: theres always a bigger fish in the water


I could write a series of books sighting examples that prove this to be completetly and totally untrue, starting with every major alliance in power today which where all small fish that claimed their stakes from big fish.

Your a small fish until your a big fish.. what you are doing is effectively proclaiming that its impossible to beat the big fish, despite the fact that every big fish in the game has already been beaten by a small fish with no exceptions at some point in time and has been themselves a small fish facing big fish at some poitn in time. Every advantage you "think" they have is in your mind and is not a reality.

The only thing keeping big alliances in power today is their reluctance to fight. The moment a small fishe rises to the challenge of taking down one of the big fish.. the big fish extends their hand and welcomes them to the blue circle jerk club. This and only this is the reason why large blocs exist unchallenged today, its not because people can't challenge them, its that there is zero reason to. Whats the point of waging months of war, spending hundreds of hours and billions of ISK to claim SOV from someone when the person who controls wants to blue up with you and give you access to it without a fight.

This isn't just happening in SOV alliances either, its happening in low sec as well. Everytime my crew moves in on someones territory suddenly I get "lets be friends" emails from all the major pirate corps in the area and when its all done their is no longer any reason to actually be there except the occassion chump that strolls in through the gate at the wrong time.

Eve needs less Mittani's and more Montolio's..

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#83 - 2013-02-06 12:07:34 UTC
Just saying, the biggest groups in EVE have the advantage of outside blood, they have access to a much bigger potential member pool than most corps due to their ability to entice new players into the game, and their crazy powers of absorbing all the other corps under an alliance banner

Might be wrong about this, probably am

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba

Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#84 - 2013-02-06 12:26:59 UTC
Zol Interbottom wrote:
Just saying, the biggest groups in EVE have the advantage of outside blood, they have access to a much bigger potential member pool than most corps due to their ability to entice new players into the game, and their crazy powers of absorbing all the other corps under an alliance banner

Might be wrong about this, probably am



i dont think you are but i ´ve been called many things, including wrong.

one of the reasons i am not buying the argument "everyone can do what they did" and think its total BS.

how long since theres basically four colors on the eve sov map ? lets make it three.
HBC, CFC and the red stuff.


how many major changes happened ?

numbers will always beat skill, some recent wars have very much shown and proved that. its a shame but its a fact. i strongly beleive that as a small corp / alliance you can seriously bugger those large powerblocks, but really "challenge" them ? c´mon, lets be honest about that. how do you challenge soemthing with several 250 men fleets ?

i mean its not even possible (with the current mechanics as they are) to stand up against the worst pvp-fleets in existence if they have more numbers and use hotdrops in any situation possible,. sure you can adapt and evade, win the occasional battle and / or even kick their asses once in a while, but really beat them ??
put that in larger context and you have the current sov problematic we are discussing.

whith the current very constructive advices listed here, the only option i see is the following:
a: earn a gazillion isk by doing boring stuff, all the while networking the **** ou of the ingame and out-of-game channels and recruit (why they would join at this point does elude me somehow though), and then go to war and "take whats rightfully yours"

option b:
give up about the idea of ever having sov for a prolonged time without having to kiss asses, blue everyone / someone larger (selling out)


because option c: start small, annoy and fight and get momentum as you do
is just not possible. i have yet to experience a fleet op in CFC (in my short but memorable time in there) where of 200-400 pilots logged in, about 140-200 people simply do something else once they learn that the opponent for the day is a small, 50 man corp with some POS´s and TCU´s.

if that ever happens, write me a mail please

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"

Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-02-06 12:29:30 UTC
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.

And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.

Let me tell you something
With that mentality, yes it is.

If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken.


Baghdad Bob in action.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-02-06 12:37:17 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Quote:
thx for your input. what you imply is that all alliances that try to carve their space and failed in recent history had the wrong mindset, which i seriously doubt. its just that as the saying goes: theres always a bigger fish in the water


I could write a series of books sighting examples that prove this to be completetly and totally untrue, starting with every major alliance in power today which where all small fish that claimed their stakes from big fish.

Your a small fish until your a big fish.. what you are doing is effectively proclaiming that its impossible to beat the big fish, despite the fact that every big fish in the game has already been beaten by a small fish with no exceptions at some point in time and has been themselves a small fish facing big fish at some poitn in time. Every advantage you "think" they have is in your mind and is not a reality.

The only thing keeping big alliances in power today is their reluctance to fight. The moment a small fishe rises to the challenge of taking down one of the big fish.. the big fish extends their hand and welcomes them to the blue circle jerk club. This and only this is the reason why large blocs exist unchallenged today, its not because people can't challenge them, its that there is zero reason to. Whats the point of waging months of war, spending hundreds of hours and billions of ISK to claim SOV from someone when the person who controls wants to blue up with you and give you access to it without a fight.

This isn't just happening in SOV alliances either, its happening in low sec as well. Everytime my crew moves in on someones territory suddenly I get "lets be friends" emails from all the major pirate corps in the area and when its all done their is no longer any reason to actually be there except the occassion chump that strolls in through the gate at the wrong time.

Eve needs less Mittani's and more Montolio's..


You know, it's not entirely correct. The thing is that this problem has sort of evolved over time and is still constantly evolving...for the worse. I can safely say that 3-4 years ago the situation was very different compared to today.

Or if I put it another way: if nothing changes, as time goes on it will just keep getting even harder and harder for small entities to "claim a stake" by themselves. In fact the battle of Asakai more or less confirms this in that there were many who said that: "this battle hardly made a dent in the wallets".

This sort of hints of how bad the situation really is today compared to even a couple of years ago. And it ain't getting better.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#87 - 2013-02-06 13:26:19 UTC
Agustice Arterius wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Too bad some people have no sense of humor.


I agree. But when somebody is extremely fervent on an issue, as I pictured the OP being, poking fun at what they are trying to say is a sure fire way to get people butt mads, and they may overlook what you are hinting at.


If a person can't handle some good Natured ribbing (of an aweful set of ideas) they have no business posting stuff on the internet. The OP is so absurd that the only real way to comment is with the same thing.

The point is that sometims things work the way they do for a reason, and trying to change that adds complications. Complications lead to broken/exploitable content and features that both make the game worse AND soak up a lot of developer time/money that could be better spent elsewhere.

CCP knows all of this which is why they are generally cautious, so things like the OP aren't a big deal. It would be nice if people would self-scrutinize their opinions for flaws before posting them though.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#88 - 2013-02-06 13:31:42 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:


Until a multinational does that better and cheaper, putting them out of business, and people like you show up to tell them "tough luck".


Yep, life is about adaptation. The alternative is some unsustainable feel good socialist BS to prop up innefficent small businesses.

No Thanks


Wonder why the USA did not directly give their keys to China since they are more efficient at industry, but instead are flooding the currency markets to keep their money under-appreciated, like they want to avoid that. Those USA socialists... Roll


Exactly. As an American I won't be butt-hurt over the fact that China is doing things better than we are, WE are the ones allowing it to happen with our individual and national choices. But many other people don't see it that way, they think "someone should fix this" rather than saying WE should do a better job of things.

People like the OP and "small alliances" are doing the same thing. Rather than those small alliances banding together to make big coalitions that can roflstop the Goons and Test or whoever , they want CCP to make up some artificial BS to give them an advantage.....

....Not understanding that any advantage that CCP tries to give will simply be exploited by the big boys. I suspect that why we don't see those "small holding" hidden player owned bases CCP used to talk about, because they know that rather than being some kind of access point for 0.0 solo players, it will just become another tool of control for the power blocks.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#89 - 2013-02-06 13:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Shanara As wrote:
[quote=Zol Interbottom]

how long since theres basically four colors on the eve sov map ? lets make it three.
HBC, CFC and the red stuff.




This is the problem with people not looking at HISTORY.

Since the 1st day I've played it's been the same thing: OMG the power blocks controll null sec. It was BoB when i started playing, later it was the super massive "Northern Coalition" and "Teh Russkis" that was "going to blue all of null sec". After NC got dismatled it was GEWNS, then GEWNS and TEST. Next year it will be something totally different as Goons and Test are going at each other.

Don't you people see. THERE IS NO PROBLEM. Human nature dictates that any "super coalition" that forms in the game will eventually do it self in OR make so many enemies that the entire EVE universe will eventually Sack them.

For some reason, some people have this tendency to look at the past through "rose colored glasses" and think "wow, the past rocks, the present sucks". It happens all the time in real life , and pretty much just means you're getting older. The real truth is Null sec is probably in better shape now than when I started playing (the 1st time) in 2007.
Agustice Arterius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-02-06 14:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Agustice Arterius
Jenn aSide wrote:


If a person can't handle some good Natured ribbing (of an aweful set of ideas) they have no business posting stuff on the internet. The OP is so absurd that the only real way to comment is with the same thing.

It would be nice if people would self-scrutinize their opinions for flaws before posting them though.


"I can be an *******. This is the internet."

?

I mean, I agree with all your reasoning.

Just saying.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-02-06 14:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
all you guys talking about numbers are forgetting that total membership is irrelevant because effective numbers count.

the large alliances have fleet participation rates in the low single digits, a small & focused entity can punch way above its weight just by having more active members.

you can't fill a 200 man fleet with less than 200 members but you absolutely don't need 3,000 members to do it - and yet your average 3000 man strong 0.0 alliance would be delighted to see 200 pilots in a CTA fleet.

a motivated underdog could realistically achieve the same fleet size with an alliance the 3rd of that total size.

.

Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#92 - 2013-02-06 17:21:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


yaddah yaddah yaddah about some pilitical crap.....

....

People like the OP and "small alliances" are doing the same thing. Rather than those small alliances banding together to make big coalitions that can roflstop the Goons and Test or whoever , they want CCP to make up some artificial BS to give them an advantage.....

....Not understanding that any advantage that CCP tries to give will simply be exploited by the big boys. I suspect that why we don't see those "small holding" hidden player owned bases CCP used to talk about, because they know that rather than being some kind of access point for 0.0 solo players, it will just become another tool of control for the power blocks.



what may elude you right here that the answer you propose for the problems described becomes just part of the problem itself or rather is a part of it.

by becoming the next coalition of many many small alliances.. what do i have then ? exactly... a large power block. so thats what needed to overthrow the existing one ? interesting.. nothing new but interesting because ->

where did i say that i wanted that to happen ? but anyways back to the topic -> according to you thats what needed to gain a foothold in sov spacein the first place. so what you are actually saying, is that i am correct in my positon stating that for small alliances it is impossible and they don´t belong there.

what you propose is nothing more than a better wording for "HTFU" or "adapt or die" and thus completing the circle.

the overall question i dared to ask was: is it really impossible to gain sov for small alliances or am i mistaken and you perfectly validated my assumption. dude, you are the man.

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2013-02-07 00:11:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Vera Algaert wrote:
all you guys talking about numbers are forgetting that total membership is irrelevant because effective numbers count.

the large alliances have fleet participation rates in the low single digits, a small & focused entity can punch way above its weight just by having more active members.

you can't fill a 200 man fleet with less than 200 members but you absolutely don't need 3,000 members to do it - and yet your average 3000 man strong 0.0 alliance would be delighted to see 200 pilots in a CTA fleet.

a motivated underdog could realistically achieve the same fleet size with an alliance the 3rd of that total size.

Ev0ke regularly beat Goonswarm for 'Freeport Delve' despite being outnumbered on paper 12:1.
Then again not everyone can be some sort of killbot fuelled by ferrogel and sauerkraut
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#94 - 2013-02-07 00:20:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Shanara As wrote:
hey there,

i am not a big insider when it comes to game mechanics and such, but I perceive a certain trend or situation in eve right now.
for me it seems like smaller corps / alliances will not be able to "set their mark" in eve or (a term that I like) "stake their claim
on 0.0 space.

since 2-4 larger powerblocks are holding like 4/5th of the current map, the rest of 0.0 space that is claimable is fought over by the wanna-be´s and runner-ups, but still large alliances compared to the usual "starter-corp with ambitions".

so either you have very good connections to some of those powerblocks to help you out, the chance to ever gain sov in eve is very very low and holding / maintaining that sov is close to impossible.

dont get me wrong. i am in no way proposing something like "break up large coalitions / powerblocks / whatnot. they worked hard to get what they have and obviously used the game and its opportunitites to the fulllest. they earned what they have...

so what ways are there for small corps / alliances to leave their mark / stake their claim?

-rent space ? yeah, everybody loves to be called a pet.
-try to claim and die a horrile and very very expensive death
-join others

it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...

is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?



Man, i know where you are coming from.

Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.

Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.


Pretty much this.

The Tears Must Flow

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#95 - 2013-02-07 01:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Shanara As wrote:



what may elude you right here that the answer you propose for the problems described becomes just part of the problem itself or rather is a part of it.

by becoming the next coalition of many many small alliances.. what do i have then ? exactly... a large power block. so thats what needed to overthrow the existing one ? interesting.. nothing new but interesting because ->

where did i say that i wanted that to happen ? but anyways back to the topic -> according to you thats what needed to gain a foothold in sov spacein the first place. so what you are actually saying, is that i am correct in my positon stating that for small alliances it is impossible and they don´t belong there.


This is where you're starting to be disingenuous. I underlined/bolded the important part. You think that the fact that small alliances/groups or whatever not being able to compete at the sov game in null sec is a "problem".

i've explained the only rational course of action for your "problem", but as can be seen by your snarky and defensive remarks, your not interested in that. You probably created this thread for the same reason most dissatisfied malcontented players do: you wanted confirmation that something you don't lik eis "bad", and when multiple people tell you to bascially HTFU (though no one has done so with the style and panash I displayed Cool ), you don't like it (thus the defensiveness).

As i tell others who get butt hurt when the truth is posted, you have only your self to blame for it, If you can't stand people disagreeing vigorously with what you think (and it's obvious what you think by how you worded the OP), don't post ill-founded opinions on the internet.....
Quote:

what you propose is nothing more than a better wording for "HTFU" or "adapt or die" and thus completing the circle.


This is true, because the fact is, what you think opf as a "problem" isn't one. Power Blocks have always existed, and have always come and gone despite ill informed and paranoid people thinking that "omg one group will take over null sec"

It (the totall blueing of null sec) can't happen becuase game playing nerds are like Arabs and Scotsmen, they'd take over the world if they could stop fighting amongst each other long enough to beat the outside enemies lol.

Quote:

the overall question i dared to ask was: is it really impossible to gain sov for small alliances or am i mistaken and you perfectly validated my assumption. dude, you are the man.




The overall question you asked is obviouls to any non-biased observer and anyone who knows anything about the history of EVE online and null sec. You "dared" ask a stupid question and got the appropriate response to such a brainless inquiry.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#96 - 2013-02-07 01:31:22 UTC
Shanara As wrote:

it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...

is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?



Wormhole space.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#97 - 2013-02-07 07:22:36 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Shanara As wrote:

it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...

is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?



Wormhole space.

-Liang


yes but you cant hold all of the sov ever and slap your epeen around in a WH, you can only get all this incredibly defensible space that the major alliances cant take because they haven't learn the subtleties of NOT supercap blob

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2013-02-07 07:28:00 UTC
Of course sov space is an exclusive club.
It's supposed to be that way.
Don't like it? Fight, bargain, or pay your way into the club. Everyone else did.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

TheBlueMonkey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-02-07 10:21:24 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can.

This is hard to understand why?


Because it's flawed logic. They can't possibly compete, or do anything better than a multinational with more resources. If you haven't noticed the effect of a new Wal-Mart on small businesses within a community you're just not paying attention.

What you're advocating is essentially the destruction of all small business because you can get cheaper stuff elsewhere, which makes it ok. They shouldn't have tried to compete with the 'big boys' in the first place.


Except big business more often than not will product the product for the cheapest amount possible, which leads to cutting corners and ending up with a sub-par product.

Where as, a small business, that focuses on quality and customer service. Will be able to **** all over almost any multinational company if managed properly.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#100 - 2013-02-07 11:44:30 UTC
Shanara As wrote:
hey there,

(...random hi-sec puibbie mutterings...)

is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?



Yes. Yes.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.