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the exclusive club of sov space...is it ?

Author
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#1 - 2013-02-05 13:05:12 UTC
hey there,

i am not a big insider when it comes to game mechanics and such, but I perceive a certain trend or situation in eve right now.
for me it seems like smaller corps / alliances will not be able to "set their mark" in eve or (a term that I like) "stake their claim
on 0.0 space.

since 2-4 larger powerblocks are holding like 4/5th of the current map, the rest of 0.0 space that is claimable is fought over by the wanna-be´s and runner-ups, but still large alliances compared to the usual "starter-corp with ambitions".

so either you have very good connections to some of those powerblocks to help you out, the chance to ever gain sov in eve is very very low and holding / maintaining that sov is close to impossible.

dont get me wrong. i am in no way proposing something like "break up large coalitions / powerblocks / whatnot. they worked hard to get what they have and obviously used the game and its opportunitites to the fulllest. they earned what they have...

so what ways are there for small corps / alliances to leave their mark / stake their claim?

-rent space ? yeah, everybody loves to be called a pet.
-try to claim and die a horrile and very very expensive death
-join others

it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...

is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"

Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
#2 - 2013-02-05 13:11:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.

And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.

Let me tell you something
With that mentality, yes it is.

If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken.
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#3 - 2013-02-05 13:19:14 UTC
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.

And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.

Let me tell you something
With that mentality, yes it is.

If you want something you have to go after it. If you are waiting that someone will handle you and your alliance space, just because, you are gravely mistaken.




thx for your input. what you imply is that all alliances that try to carve their space and failed in recent history had the wrong mindset, which i seriously doubt. its just that as the saying goes: theres always a bigger fish in the water. this of course holds true. but in nature, as opposed to eve, the white shark couldnt care less about some small "Nemo" building his own house somehere right next to him.

in eve, the shark would not only jump at Nemo, but call his other shark frriends.

i could have put it more into game mechanic terms.. something that might be better / easier to understand for some pilots of new eden: what size of playerbase and such do you think is needed to effectivley hold sov and carve out an empire ?
keep in mind that the space used would be needed to provide some kind of ROI for the effort it takes to gain / hold it. so belts, rats, anoms and such should be available...

i would be very surprised to get a straight answer for that.

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"

Yim Sei
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-02-05 13:19:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Yim Sei
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.

And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.

Let me tell you something
With that mentality, yes it is.

If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken.


tldr HTFU - Except the OP has a valid point and this is not the be all and end all answer.

Why not dissect the reasons that is not possible for smaller alliances to carve their own little bit of SOV?

Possibilites

1. Supercaps / blobs

2. Access to nullsec (camps)

3. Nullsec Market and logistics


Find the actual deciding factors before looking for an answer fix it all answer.

It has to be done bit by bit - there is no cure all.


+1 OP btw

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.

Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#5 - 2013-02-05 13:27:01 UTC
also: I ´ve been playing MMO´s for close to 15 years now and I dont have the illusion anymore that i can compete with some jobless creature that dwells online all the time. Neither do I want that. That time is over. But uunless you have a coalition / alliance that can field about 250 pilots 23/7 , taking and maintaninign sov is impossible. is it not ?

if it wasnt, then i wonder why not hundreds of alliances constantly chip and gnawl away from those large powerblocks.

they know its a waste of time, a battle not possible to win.

so i pose the question: is the battle for and goal to gain sov space merely an illusion ? a bubble about to burst when the first of many cynos is lit when you just formed up your 25 men fleet to defend what you just built ?

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#6 - 2013-02-05 13:34:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Shanara As wrote:
hey there,

i am not a big insider when it comes to game mechanics and such, but I perceive a certain trend or situation in eve right now.
for me it seems like smaller corps / alliances will not be able to "set their mark" in eve or (a term that I like) "stake their claim
on 0.0 space.

since 2-4 larger powerblocks are holding like 4/5th of the current map, the rest of 0.0 space that is claimable is fought over by the wanna-be´s and runner-ups, but still large alliances compared to the usual "starter-corp with ambitions".

so either you have very good connections to some of those powerblocks to help you out, the chance to ever gain sov in eve is very very low and holding / maintaining that sov is close to impossible.

dont get me wrong. i am in no way proposing something like "break up large coalitions / powerblocks / whatnot. they worked hard to get what they have and obviously used the game and its opportunitites to the fulllest. they earned what they have...

so what ways are there for small corps / alliances to leave their mark / stake their claim?

-rent space ? yeah, everybody loves to be called a pet.
-try to claim and die a horrile and very very expensive death
-join others

it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...

is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?



Man, i know where you are coming from.

Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.

Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-02-05 13:37:38 UTC
Your perception is flawed.

You are starting with a self-defeating prophecy and a belief that it is impossible.

Anyone can be the next big Alliance in 0.0. Anyone.

The thing is, it will take a lot of energy, time, effort, and understanding of how people work.

The people who run the larger Alliances have put in a lot into EVE Online and have managed to succeed where hundreds (if not thousands) of others have failed. But, they also prove that it is possible. They didn't just magically become leaders of large organizations that span across tens of thousands of players.

They built up these coalitions over the course of years.

If you want to carve out space in the strategy game that is EVE Online in 0.0 then start.

Take the time to study the shifting loyalties of the different corporations and personalities in 0.0. Get together some like minded folk. Take over a single system and hold it. If you are pushed out of it by overwhelming numbers all the better: use that as a rallying cry and move to NPC 0.0. Go back and retake your homeland space. Keep working on taking the space.

If you get thrown out a dozen times then that is good. Why? Others will take notice of your struggle and join you.

So, yes, it can definitely be done. All it will take is someone with the conviction, energy, time, and charisma to make it happen.


Corey Fumimasa
Court of Gods
Tsundere Triad
#8 - 2013-02-05 13:41:54 UTC
Go find a wormhole if you just want some space. Plenty of moons in them and no static enemies really, other W-space corps tend to mind their own business and the k-space connections change enough that you don't need to worry so much about extended campaigns.

Or go to NPC null, the stations there are open and the last time I was out in ORE space (last summer) there were no roving mobs destroying anyone in their territory. I saw a few gangs, but they were on the small side (under 15 ships) and a lot of solo pilots and small gangs of 3 or 4. I wouldn't try to put a POS out there...well if you had a 100 pilots you could prolly hold it well enough against the groups that I saw.

A lot of sov is working with the alliances and people around you; send out scouts, live out of your ORCA's for a while until you find a system that isn't all that important to anyone else and then make the owners pay more than it is worth to them to get it back. Practice taking sov in FW first, the mechanics and organization required are very similar. That will give you a feel for the structure grind.

Practice in incursions, develop tight knit fleets that know each other and their group roles. And you'll need a ton of ISK anyway to get set up, incursions are very dense faucet.

Can 5 or 10 guys go out and hold sov in null just by playing the MMO? I don't think so. But if you build relationships and can figure out when you need to fight and when you need to talk then you can carve out a nitch anywhere in Eve.
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#9 - 2013-02-05 13:42:10 UTC


Quote:


Man, i know where you are coming from.

Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.

Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.


i like your humor.. good one. if mocking the question is your only response though I would say... yeah. i expected as much.
your example is deeply flawed but hey. a joke is better than really thinking about it right ?


a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno.

also, what is the epxected "right tool" in eve ? when i am talking about taking sov i am not having the idea of flying in there with frigs and an Iteron.

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2013-02-05 13:42:38 UTC
You could try diplomatically reaching out to an existing entity to see if they can find a place for you and yours among the starts.

Also its not 4/5ths of the map, all of claimable 0.0 is currently claimed, it stays claimed until somebody comes and takes it.

If you're young and starting up, your best bet is literally to touch base with a group and see if they can find a home for your small alliance.

Then grow.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Yim Sei
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-02-05 13:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Yim Sei
It would be great if you could form a group (alliance / corp / whatever) say with 50 cruiser / 10 BS and 3 or 4 capitals to go out and claim a bit of null (theorycrafting please dont analyse the numbers)

I imagine its entirely possible, however there are bound to be losses so these need replacing and quick - thats where the logistics come in.

Looking at it this way there are say 65 players involved in combat ops - so you may need another 65 (ish) for alternative timezones.

OK so you have your tower up and a pretty active little community who are now ratting, PvPing and performing logistics in the surrounding area over say 7 or 8 systems which WILL border one of the powerblocks.


How long before someone annoys someone and they sent 30 dreads to pop your tower maybe just for giggles.

We need more space and something to limit coalitions imo - but the real question is why? whats the detail?

This is alot more complicated than just one answer.

There must be balance and fairness to the large powerblocks who have worked hard to hold what they have in the past, as well as opportunity for smaller entities.

Edit -
I dont think I am alone in wanting this type of gameplay, however atm wormholes may be the only answer.
There will always be bigger fish.

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.

Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
#12 - 2013-02-05 13:50:14 UTC
Yim Sei wrote:
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.

And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.

Let me tell you something
With that mentality, yes it is.

If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken.


tldr HTFU - Except the OP has a valid point and this is not the be all and end all answer.

Why not dissect the reasons that is not possible for smaller alliances to carve their own little bit of SOV?

Possibilites

1. Supercaps / blobs

2. Access to nullsec (camps)

3. Nullsec Market and logistics


Find the actual deciding factors before looking for an answer fix it all answer.

It has to be done bit by bit - there is no cure all.


+1 OP btw

What you have written applies only to larger blocks and not to a small alliance (or group of players if you like).
If a small alliance wants space they have to prove themselves and they will get some space eventually.

Sov needs a lot of things and not only the ability to take it, but also maintain (that is Logistics and not the possession of supers). A small alliance won't be able to do that unless they work with other alliances as a team (they can get some space too if they co operate with others).
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#13 - 2013-02-05 13:55:58 UTC
Shanara As wrote:


Quote:


Man, i know where you are coming from.

Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.

Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.


i like your humor.. good one. if mocking the question is your only response though I would say... yeah. i expected as much.
your example is deeply flawed but hey. a joke is better than really thinking about it right ?


a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno.

also, what is the epxected "right tool" in eve ? when i am talking about taking sov i am not having the idea of flying in there with frigs and an Iteron.



You're original post was a big joke so I thought I'd return the favor.

Want sov? go make friends with a few hundred people and take it.
Yim Sei
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-02-05 13:57:36 UTC
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
Yim Sei wrote:
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.

And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.

Let me tell you something
With that mentality, yes it is.

If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken.


tldr HTFU - Except the OP has a valid point and this is not the be all and end all answer.

Why not dissect the reasons that is not possible for smaller alliances to carve their own little bit of SOV?

Possibilites

1. Supercaps / blobs

2. Access to nullsec (camps)

3. Nullsec Market and logistics


Find the actual deciding factors before looking for an answer fix it all answer.

It has to be done bit by bit - there is no cure all.


+1 OP btw

What you have written applies only to larger blocks and not to a small alliance (or group of players if you like).
If a small alliance wants space they have to prove themselves and they will get some space eventually.

Sov needs a lot of things and not only the ability to take it, but also maintain (that is Logistics and not the possession of supers). A small alliance won't be able to do that unless they work with other alliances as a team (they can get some space too if they co operate with others).



I can see your point, and looks like 'working as intended'.

Of course the 'little guy' is always going to want a bigger piece of the pie, and I guess this works where alliances are concerned, but dont coalitions set the bar too high?

Not wanting to oversimplify things but its looking to be like war may be the only answer, but how can this happen when opposition can so easily stamped out way before it becomes a threat?

does that make sense?

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.

Corey Fumimasa
Court of Gods
Tsundere Triad
#15 - 2013-02-05 13:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Shanara As wrote:
also: I ´ve been playing MMO´s for close to 15 years now and I dont have the illusion anymore that i can compete with some jobless creature that dwells online all the time. Neither do I want that. That time is over. But uunless you have a coalition / alliance that can field about 250 pilots 23/7 , taking and maintaninign sov is impossible. is it not ?

if it wasnt, then i wonder why not hundreds of alliances constantly chip and gnawl away from those large powerblocks.

they know its a waste of time, a battle not possible to win.

so i pose the question: is the battle for and goal to gain sov space merely an illusion ? a bubble about to burst when the first of many cynos is lit when you just formed up your 25 men fleet to defend what you just built ?



I was way out behind Minmatar space last year, that seemed pretty empty. And the whole thing with Test taking Delve, no one really wants Delve its always been a renter hive ****-hole, and if the roving east blok gangs in lowsec from the Eve Gate out to Delve are any indication then there is some space available out there. Maybe just pay rent to Test for a while and get a feel for what your income stream will look like and how logistics work so far from empire space.

As for casual pilots competing with full time gamer's, yeah that's not going to happen. But you could recruit pilots from out of Eve. Post fliers around on gamestore windows and meetup.com ads get a bunch of new guys and teach them how to play. The bulk of Test pilots are very new players that get recruited out of game I think. 20 guys in Drakes are a great addition to a fleet even if their skills are very low.

So in answer to the question; I think it would be very difficult to do just using in game tools. You probably need to step outside of Eve to develop a social network capable of influencing things on a big scale. But there are plenty of smaller places to start.
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#16 - 2013-02-05 13:58:30 UTC
Yim Sei wrote:
It would be great if you could form a group (alliance / corp / whatever) say with 50 cruiser / 10 BS and 3 or 4 capitals to go out and claim a bit of null (theorycrafting please dont analyse the numbers)

I imagine its entirely possible, however there are bound to be losses so these need replacing and quick - thats where the logistics come in.

Looking at it this way there are say 65 players involved in combat ops - so you may need another 65 (ish) for alternative timezones.

OK so you have your tower up and a pretty active little community who are now ratting, PvPing and performing logistics in the surrounding area over say 7 or 8 systems which WILL border one of the powerblocks.


How long before someone annoys someone and they sent 30 dreads to pop your tower maybe just for giggles.

We need more space and something to limit coalitions imo - but the real question is why? whats the detail?

This is alot more complicated than just one answer.

There must be balance and fairness to the large powerblocks who have worked hard to hold what they have in the past, as well as opportunity for smaller entities.


exactly and thx for that post. one of the things i cant stand is the HTFU mentality or the bullshit that "your mindset is wrong" , self fullfilling prohecy crap. when a game cannot be played unless i use jabber / IRC, wake my members up at night and schedule my real life around it to gain access to the possibilities the game holds, the game is divided into more than casual and hardcore gamer classes, but into even more . into casual, hardcore and nothing else gamers.
its not that I want to take sov away from anyone. but for christ sakes...its space. theres gotta be more out there. why not being able to just find some more "promised land" out there ?

also... like I said i dont mind too mich aboput game mechanics.. but I am a fan of
-mass limits on cynos (like in WH´s)
-supers following their cynos (you have to commmit and cannot be used to just bridging anymore)
-increase fould costs for jump portals , depending on mass bridged
-a cyno jamming ship (see it as a cyno interdictor)
-something like proximity detection and depth charge mechanic for uncloaking / destroying cloaky ships (no afk cloaking anymore)

but this has nothing to do with the original post of course

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"

Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#17 - 2013-02-05 14:05:26 UTC
Yim Sei wrote:
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
Yim Sei wrote:
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.

And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.

Let me tell you something
With that mentality, yes it is.

If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken.


tldr HTFU - Except the OP has a valid point and this is not the be all and end all answer.

Why not dissect the reasons that is not possible for smaller alliances to carve their own little bit of SOV?

Possibilites

1. Supercaps / blobs

2. Access to nullsec (camps)

3. Nullsec Market and logistics


Find the actual deciding factors before looking for an answer fix it all answer.

It has to be done bit by bit - there is no cure all.


+1 OP btw

What you have written applies only to larger blocks and not to a small alliance (or group of players if you like).
If a small alliance wants space they have to prove themselves and they will get some space eventually.

Sov needs a lot of things and not only the ability to take it, but also maintain (that is Logistics and not the possession of supers). A small alliance won't be able to do that unless they work with other alliances as a team (they can get some space too if they co operate with others).



I can see your point, and looks like 'working as intended'.

Of course the 'little guy' is always going to want a bigger piece of the pie, and I guess this works where alliances are concerned, but dont coalitions set the bar too high?

Not wanting to oversimplify things but its looking to be like war may be the only answer, but how can this happen when opposition can so easily stamped out way before it becomes a threat?

does that make sense?



yeah thats my train of thought.
of course like i posted earlier, theres always bigger fish. but why on earth would the biggest fish seriously care about the small ones ? only in eve they would because otherwise its a lil boring sometimes maybe ?

to that jokster: "if you want sov, make hundres of friends and take it"... *chuckle....
hilarious. might put that in my signature.

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"

Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
#18 - 2013-02-05 14:07:48 UTC
Shanara As wrote:


Quote:


Man, i know where you are coming from.

Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.

Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.


i like your humor.. good one. if mocking the question is your only response though I would say... yeah. i expected as much.
your example is deeply flawed but hey. a joke is better than really thinking about it right ?


a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno.

also, what is the epxected "right tool" in eve ? when i am talking about taking sov i am not having the idea of flying in there with frigs and an Iteron.


What the hell are you talking about?
You think that supers or even capitals are deployed on every little chance of a fight?

You are wrong.
A small group of people can't defend a system (even a dead end one) against people that are willing to throw every ship they have to achieve their goal.

Slipping a ship in and lighting a cyno is easy. In fact the most probable thing that will happen is that the cyno won't lit before a huge proportion of your enemies have jumped into the system, thus locking your forces on the gate.

I would also like to remind you that holding a single system in 0.0 is worse than being all day in high sec doing level 4 mission.
Except of the constant fear of getting hot dropped, you won't be able to reap any of the profits you imagine that there are in 0.0 (and I am sure that you have a wild imagination, thus the sad face that you can't do that with your corp only).

EVE is a team game. The amount of things a team can achieve is proportional to the amount of people involved. When you understand this, you will realize that you can't play in your exclusive garden of Eden, because there is no way you will be able to keep the rest of the community outside of your garden.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#19 - 2013-02-05 14:10:11 UTC
This whole topic is a hotly debated issue at the moment - just take a look at the popular game related news sites or player written blogs, for example. I suspect it will be an interesting issue for all candidates looking to stand in the CSM8 elections too.Blink

For small and medium alliances that don't want to burden themseleves with the renter/pet title, my impression is that WH space is the place to be. I have to say, the idea of using WH space to raid the lazy fat cats in sov null sounds an interesting pastime as well. P
Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#20 - 2013-02-05 14:11:09 UTC
Everyone started small. You shouldn't be looking at it as 'How can small alliances take sov?'. You should be thinking 'How can my small alliance be successful enough to be able to take and hold sov?'
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