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the exclusive club of sov space...is it ?

Author
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2013-02-05 17:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Shanara As wrote:
hey there,

i am not a big insider when it comes to game mechanics and such, but I perceive a certain trend or situation in eve right now.
for me it seems like smaller corps / alliances will not be able to "set their mark" in eve or (a term that I like) "stake their claim
on 0.0 space.
800 man alliance with 2 allies that is the 14th largest alliance in the game
sup
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2013-02-05 17:48:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
ask me anything about ~space relevance~
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#63 - 2013-02-05 17:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Necran
Jenn aSide wrote:
If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can.

This is hard to understand why?


Because it's flawed logic. They can't possibly compete, or do anything better than a multinational with more resources. If you haven't noticed the effect of a new Wal-Mart on small businesses within a community you're just not paying attention.

What you're advocating is essentially the destruction of all small business because you can get cheaper stuff elsewhere, which makes it ok. They shouldn't have tried to compete with the 'big boys' in the first place.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2013-02-05 18:10:45 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Andski wrote:
you see, sov 0.0 isn't supposed to cater to your risk-averse, ...



Nerf local.

No?


as a policy i do not consider the opinions of NPC alts or honorary NPC alts

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2013-02-05 18:12:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
Always amused by these threads.

It's like telling a small business to just become a billion dollar multinational corporation if it wants to compete with them. If they can't do that, then they're just bad at business, right?


Yes.

If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can.

This is hard to understand why?



Sounds like a counter argument as to why industry should not be increased in null but be dominated by highsec as it is.

Not why they cannot be a part of sov. Most small businesses are indeed a part of a community that regularly meets on a weekly basis (town hall etc).

The bigger coalitions made of smaller corporations would be more akin to your example than a new group just starting out.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#66 - 2013-02-05 18:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Bane Necran wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can.

This is hard to understand why?


Because it's flawed logic. They can't possibly compete, or do anything better than a multinational with more resources. If you haven't noticed the effect of a new Wal-Mart on small businesses within a community you're just not paying attention.


Sure, i see what Wal-mart does to small businesses. My message to those small businesses is "tough luck, do something else".

Quote:

What you're advocating is essentially the destruction of all small business because you can get cheaper stuff elsewhere, which makes it ok. They shouldn't have tried to compete with the 'big boys' in the first place.


Nope, small businesses can survive by NOT competing with wal-mart, but by finding a niche it's hard for a big ponderous thing like Wal-mart to do. Like the mom and pop hardware store in my dad's home town. They knew they couldn't compete with cheap tools and materials from wal-mart, so they morphed their business into a "come to you" home repair business that buys cheap materials and tools....from wal-mart (and Home Depot) and survived.

Or they coulda done a "Bane Necran" and expected the gubmint to some how artifically level the playing filed so they could compete with wal-mart on wal-mart's turf while producing an inferior product/service.

This is basically what the "make small groups able to compete in null sec" want, the government (CCP) to somehow prop them up so they can take sov. They don't understand that anything ccp does to support small alliances will just make large alliances that much more of a problem....
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-02-05 19:16:16 UTC
First off, holding sov in 2 systems does not make you an empire. That is a petty kingdom.

Empires are defined by being multi-ethnic/cultural. Current sov holding alliances can be called empires because they include corporations from a variety of backgrounds all working together. For example, GoonSwarm Federation has French, Dutch and Russian corporations as well as the typical US-centric/English speaking corps, and corps that specialize in PvP and others that do industry, and so on.

There is a place for small corporations in sov nullsec. That place is doing your part to help the empire as a whole.

Holding sov with a small group is just plain more trouble than it is worth. The cost of the sov structures you need to drop. The sov fees that need to be paid. The logistics for all the stuff you want to do there. Big alliances make it look easy because we have more people to spread all the work around with. Huge teams of people who specialize in shooting/defending structures. Huge teams of people doing importing/exporting. Teams to fuel all the POS. Teams to build capital ships in the quantities we need.




Wormholes are for the small groups interested in small holdings. You get a lot of nullsec quality stuff, but without having to drop/shoot sov structures and without the minimum 180mil/month/system sov bills.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#68 - 2013-02-05 19:23:53 UTC
Shanara As wrote:
also: I ´ve been playing MMO´s for close to 15 years now and I dont have the illusion anymore that i can compete with some jobless creature that dwells online all the time. Neither do I want that. That time is over. But uunless you have a coalition / alliance that can field about 250 pilots 23/7 , taking and maintaninign sov is impossible. is it not ?

if it wasnt, then i wonder why not hundreds of alliances constantly chip and gnawl away from those large powerblocks.

they know its a waste of time, a battle not possible to win.

so i pose the question: is the battle for and goal to gain sov space merely an illusion ? a bubble about to burst when the first of many cynos is lit when you just formed up your 25 men fleet to defend what you just built ?



I cite the example of TEST, which was literally formed by a bunch of noobs from Reddit. They've done pretty well for themselves, wouldn't you say?

The main reason they have succeeded is that they weren't above working with others. Trying to explain away their success as being "jobless creatures" is just Othering and making excuses.

Every single entity in sov 0.0 has always worked with other groups. If you want yours to succeed also, you'll have to do the same. Diplomacy is part of politics as much as war is.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Felicity Love
Doomheim
#69 - 2013-02-05 19:36:29 UTC
Wouldn't worry about it.

Sooner or later "somebody" will get bored, a change in game mechanics may occur, or both, and the map will change around again.

Summers, usually, when folks have more time to fly spaceships and plot nasty plots.

Until then, it's sort of like saving your raisins for Sunday. Blink

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Grab Stuff
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-02-05 20:40:01 UTC
Taking sovereignty is the easy bit, its holding that system that's the problem

I've seen one guy get sovereignty on his own, I was totally blown away that he managed it.
of course he had no illusions this would last, was more of an experiment.
but he got and held a null system for about a day before the inevitable blobs arrived.
EVE got a bit shinier for me that day, that was cool Smile

I think the only real way to make this sort of thing a possibility is to limit the amount of systems a group can hold, only thing I can think of is an exponentially increasing cost per system held by alliance.

Although I'm seeing some hope if the POS changes spoken about happen, a hidden away POS might be just what the doctor ordered.
That's what keeps me out of null personally, no safe base of operations, its either join the horde or stay out.

Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-02-05 20:42:36 UTC
Andski wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Andski wrote:
you see, sov 0.0 isn't supposed to cater to your risk-averse, ...



Nerf local.

No?


as a policy i do not consider the opinions of NPC alts or honorary NPC alts


As a policy I graciously accept your tap-out.Blink
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#72 - 2013-02-06 03:35:13 UTC
Shanara As wrote:

so what ways are there for small corps / alliances to leave their mark / stake their claim?


NPC nullsec. All the perks of nullsec, plus stations you can never lose, and you never have to worry about Sov. If you can control a chunk of that then it's a good first step towards being able to control a chunk of sov space. Of course NPC null has disadvantages too - neutrals can dock at the stations too so station games are the order of the day, there are no jump-bridges or ihubs, etc. But hell, it's a starting place for "small" corps. You'll get plenty of practice.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-02-06 03:42:52 UTC
its called wormhole space. plenty of us have our own empires in the unknown. and most can give a **** about 0.0 and vice versa. i like it that way
Agustice Arterius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-02-06 04:24:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Man, i know where you are coming from.

Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.

Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.


Honestly, as trolly and useless as this persons response seems to be, they essentially had it right.

You aren't going to be the next biggest alliance unless you do a lot of work, kiss a lot of ass, and have the right connections to make it happen.

Same thing in real life.

As The Mittani said in an interview I recall reading, those successful alliances are usually composed of out of game communities. Many of them being communities long before they even made the jump to EVE, and some of them are even older than EVE itself.

This is completely different than say a first person shooter game, where a group of people can make themselves known, simply by being good at the game and going to tournaments.

It's sad, but I do believe EVE is a good representation of real life that way. You aren't going to be President unless you kiss your fair share of assess.

But when you do make it, expect to have your ass kissed quite a bit. le mittani
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#75 - 2013-02-06 05:07:45 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nope, small businesses can survive by NOT competing with wal-mart, but by finding a niche it's hard for a big ponderous thing like Wal-mart to do. Like the mom and pop hardware store in my dad's home town. They knew they couldn't compete with cheap tools and materials from wal-mart, so they morphed their business into a "come to you" home repair business that buys cheap materials and tools....from wal-mart (and Home Depot) and survived.


Until a multinational does that better and cheaper, putting them out of business, and people like you show up to tell them "tough luck".

But back to EVE: There isn't a variety of ways for a smaller independent alliance to carve out a place for itself in 0.0. They simply can't compete with larger alliances, so my example still applies.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#76 - 2013-02-06 05:38:56 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:


Until a multinational does that better and cheaper, putting them out of business, and people like you show up to tell them "tough luck".


Yep, life is about adaptation. The alternative is some unsustainable feel good socialist BS to prop up innefficent small businesses.

No Thanks

Quote:

But back to EVE: There isn't a variety of ways for a smaller independent alliance to carve out a place for itself in 0.0. They simply can't compete with larger alliances, so my example still applies.


Nor does their need to be a variety of ways for "small alliances" to be able to hold sov. A small alliance wants to exist in null, they better learn how to live out of a few carriers guerilla warfare style, or get used to NPC null.

Like in the real life example, the only alternative is some feel good/game destorying artificial BS to prop up weak small alliances.

No thanks.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#77 - 2013-02-06 05:40:26 UTC
Agustice Arterius wrote:


Honestly, as trolly and useless as this persons response seems to be, they essentially had it right.


Too bad some people have no sense of humor.
Agustice Arterius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-02-06 06:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Agustice Arterius
Jenn aSide wrote:


Too bad some people have no sense of humor.


I agree. But when somebody is extremely fervent on an issue, as I pictured the OP being, poking fun at what they are trying to say is a sure fire way to get people butt mads, and they may overlook what you are hinting at.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#79 - 2013-02-06 11:16:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nor does their need to be a variety of ways for "small alliances" to be able to hold sov. A small alliance wants to exist in null, they better learn how to live out of a few carriers guerilla warfare style, or get used to NPC null.

Like in the real life example, the only alternative is some feel good/game destorying artificial BS to prop up weak small alliances.

No thanks.

TIme for NPCs to intervene, the new CONCORD Legion helps "small" alliances. Suddenly, altalliances spring up with sov everywhere.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#80 - 2013-02-06 11:19:47 UTC
Agustice Arterius wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Too bad some people have no sense of humor.


I agree. But when somebody is extremely fervent on an issue, as I pictured the OP being, poking fun at what they are trying to say is a sure fire way to get people butt mads, and they may overlook what you are hinting at.


oh well. i see this thread gained some steam. and the posts show that I am not the only one thinking what I think about sov.

i wont get into too much details about most posts but let me put it this way:

1. small corp / alliance being asocial (was mentioned here somewhere)

why on earth would some human with a functional brain think that i am talking about me myslef and I having the idea of takling sov ? i merely made a point. when you get together a functioning group / corp with lets say 20-40 people... thats asocical I bet you thats this groupd most of the time will work much better and efficient together than much much larger entities.....

2. sov space is for large alliances (how large i didn not find anywhere exactly) only

yeah but why is that so ? because the situation as it currently is does not allow anything else. nothing more, nothing less.
imagine a brand new galaxy / set of systems. assuming smaller allaiances have the isk to get the modules / infrastructures, they should be able to get in there and pitch their tent... but in the current ecosystem its just "jabber-ping -> 250 - 2000 people blob the hell outta them"

very nice.....

3. smaller companies cannot compete with bigger ones, they have to find themselve a niche

i agree, in the real world. too bad eve is just not that diverse. when a single player can built carriers, will specializing in that area of business really be helpful ? guess not. because others can do it too. he gains NOTHING in eve for being smaller and more flexible as he would be in real life because the basic processes like production, research and even travel or mining is always capped -> their is a maximum speed one can attain and thats it. you can specialize all you want, you will only be as fast / good as others because of skills and game mechanics. there are already certain ways to do things (set up PI, organize production chains, hell even Fit a ship for specific purposes) that are proven to work. so what exactly would that niche be ?

4. go to npc-null, its the same but without the hassle.

true and in fact thats where my main lives. its hell of fun and i love it way more than my former experiences in sov-0.0.
still i dream of my own "petty kingdom" as one other dude in here has put it. yeah its a petty kingdom, but it will be mine / our kingdom...and thats a difference. also i think the "disadvantage" of having to pay 180Mill / month for sov is not worth mentioning as i can make that much isk by even ratting in belt in three days time using nothing more than a drake. so yeah, sov is ohh so expensive.

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"