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CCP... The Simple Solution to the NPC Corp Issue

Author
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#361 - 2013-01-30 12:33:01 UTC
Just have the war dec follow the individual players that were in a corp at the time it was declared. Then, if they change corporations, they can still be valid targets until the war declaration cycle is over.

If they're neutral-alts, ask for a way for them to be declared combatants. For example, if they do 5 courier contracts for a corporation or alliance, or if they assist in combat 5 times, or if they station trade too often with one side, etc., maybe it could be made so that they became a party to the hostilities, whether they liked it or not.

What I do not see is anybody complaining about the things that happen in unsecure space, especially null. But, think about it. How much effect can you have on Goonswarm technetium production, even though that does affect you, even more so than some NPC character mining veldspar in high sec? Who here is complaining about how the short route between Jita and Rens, through Rancer, is cut off by the united, forcing standard freight to go the long way? Has anybody attempted to disrupt faction warfare because it is flooding the market with cheaper faction gear? Those things affect your game, too, but rather than work on those, you're pissing and moaning about how you can't gank some dude in a Retriever for mining the plagioclase that you feel you are entitled to. I'll say this again: Quit being *******.
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#362 - 2013-01-30 13:20:46 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
you're pissing and moaning about how you can't gank some dude in a Retriever for mining the plagioclase that you feel you are entitled to. I'll say this again: Quit being *******.


My goodness, man! That is against the very spirit of Eve!!!

This game is all about being *******!! If people weren't ******* to each other MY GOD this game would be one of those welfare mmos where people don't hurt other players for fun!

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#363 - 2013-01-30 13:36:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Quote:


no because i understand that I can manufacture, research, move and sell my goods without undocking and so wardecs mean nothing. Onlyt noobs mine and thank god for that.

you are actually upset about additional character slots, recycling and multiple accounts not NPC corp characters. remove NPC corps and you'll still get ganked by anonymous characters soon to be biomassed.


Simply. no you cannot manufacture, research, move and sell your goods without leaving the station. You may not do so personally, but someone is moving those goods and if they are in an NPC corp, its the same problem.

No Im not upset about anything, I don't stress over things out of my control. I do agree there are some issues with alts and account recycling, but CCP is as powerless to control those things as we are, its just a part of the digital system, some things just cant be fixed. I can certainly think of some potential solutions, but each one comes with its own drawbacks and I think that will always be the case when it comes to alts.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Diablo Ex
Nocturne Holdings
#364 - 2013-01-30 13:38:01 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:


..... Snip worthless ranting....

... you're pissing and moaning about how you can't gank some dude in a Retriever for mining the plagioclase that you feel you are entitled to. I'll say this again: Quit being *******.


Firstly..... Do Note that I'm here posting with my Main. Not some disposable anon forum alt. That should tell you something about me....

Secondly... When I'm playing online, I certainly do feel entitled to everything in the Game. It's called being competitive.

I do not fear reprisals, I bask in the warmth of their laser fire. I am most likely one of the most "Red" objects that lurk in Nullsec Local.... My Killboards reek because when I show my face, I'm "Primary" .... When I Uncloak, I cause FC's to scream in terror "Kill that Cyno! - or "Somebody Kill that Falcon!" - yes, I am not welcome in Nullsec, but I go there anyways.

In Highsec though, if you not willing to stand up and defend what you got, you deserve to lose it.
Don't tell me how to play my game, track me down with an Agent and Show me or STFU!

Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem"

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#365 - 2013-01-30 13:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Diablo Ex wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:


..... Snip worthless ranting....

... you're pissing and moaning about how you can't gank some dude in a Retriever for mining the plagioclase that you feel you are entitled to. I'll say this again: Quit being *******.


Firstly..... Do Note that I'm here posting with my Main. Not some disposable anon forum alt. That should tell you something about me....

Secondly... When I'm playing online, I certainly do feel entitled to everything in the Game. It's called being competitive.

I do not fear reprisals, I bask in the warmth of their laser fire. I am most likely one of the most "Red" objects that lurk in Nullsec Local.... My Killboards reek because when I show my face, I'm "Primary" .... When I Uncloak, I cause FC's to scream in terror "Kill that Cyno! - or "Somebody Kill that Falcon!" - yes, I am not welcome in Nullsec, but I go there anyways.

In Highsec though, if you not willing to stand up and defend what you got, you deserve to lose it.
Don't tell me how to play my game, track me down with an Agent and Show me or STFU!



I disagree, I think he made some valid points. There are certainly bigger issues than NPC corp which is probobly the reason no one has ever really looked at it at CCP. That doesn't invalidate the argument that its a problem, but I agree that some noob in a retriever mining in High Sec while a minor quible is hardly a world shattering problem compared to say throw away disposable suicide alts in NPC corps. Its odd that people think suicide ganking alts are "in the spirt of Eve", but mining in High Sec is some sort of grieving cause you can't war dec the miners NPC corp. Its really a silly discussion, especially since both circumvent Eve mechanics entirely.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Diablo Ex
Nocturne Holdings
#366 - 2013-01-30 13:48:01 UTC
.... um.... "I'm not here to fix your problem"?

Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem"

Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
#367 - 2013-01-30 14:02:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rellik B00n
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
I do agree there are some issues with alts and account recycling, but CCP is as powerless to control those things as we are, its just a part of the digital system, some things just cant be fixed. I can certainly think of some potential solutions, but each one comes with its own drawbacks and I think that will always be the case when it comes to alts.


Aha! Common sense alert!

In reality this discussion (whilst still pretty dumb) can be broken up into 2 key areas:

NPC corps
Alts

many of the issues being brought up in this thread are much more to do with alts than they are to do with NPC corps.
So the alt system needs looking at.
Except it doesnt because its FAR too late in the day for anyone to ever look at it.
5 years ago was too late.

I found it very revealing that when someone at CCP was dumb enough recently to mention that empire war decs were stupid because one side just avoids it loads of players were like 'BLASPHEMY! STONE THE UNBELIEVER!'
This was laughable because the person in question was quoting a FACT.

Sometimes you just have to take what is in front of you and work with it. As I stated earlier in the thread changes to force players into player corps will be counter-productive.
No question about it.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2013-01-30 14:22:42 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
I found it very revealing that when someone at CCP was dumb enough recently to mention that empire war decs were stupid because one side just avoids it loads of players were like 'BLASPHEMY! STONE THE UNBELIEVER!'
This was laughable because the person in question was quoting a FACT.


That comes as no surprise to me. I mean, a lot of wardecs are focused towards what would be considered easy targets by the aggressor. Not all, but a lot. And who likes being an easy target, really?
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#369 - 2013-01-30 14:33:46 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Quote:


no because i understand that I can manufacture, research, move and sell my goods without undocking and so wardecs mean nothing. Onlyt noobs mine and thank god for that.

you are actually upset about additional character slots, recycling and multiple accounts not NPC corp characters. remove NPC corps and you'll still get ganked by anonymous characters soon to be biomassed.


Simply. no you cannot manufacture, research, move and sell your goods without leaving the station. You may not do so personally, but someone is moving those goods and if they are in an NPC corp, its the same problem.

No Im not upset about anything, I don't stress over things out of my control. I do agree there are some issues with alts and account recycling, but CCP is as powerless to control those things as we are, its just a part of the digital system, some things just cant be fixed. I can certainly think of some potential solutions, but each one comes with its own drawbacks and I think that will always be the case when it comes to alts.


yeah that cat is out of the bag as much as titan blobs. so just deal with it, let the game shape your style not vice versa. there are positives to playing with a single toon and negatives and vice versa.

what i would say is that there is still a legitimate use of the wardec when it comes to clearing out rival player's corporate assets, like git off ma moon sort of deal. obviously since this is an NPC corp character i can't have those so there's barely any reason to dec me apart from grief play.

forums.  serious business.

Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#370 - 2013-01-30 17:27:05 UTC
Diablo Ex wrote:

3. If I am not adding to my personal empire, if I'm not gaining power or influence over others to my gain, then YOU are forcing ME to play the game YOU like to play. I'm NOT HERE FOR THAT!!!!!!!!



If the majority of players disagree with you, and I'm starting to see indications that is the case, then mayne YOU are playing the wrong game. Big smile
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#371 - 2013-01-30 17:43:25 UTC
Henri Kantar wrote:
Want to get more PVP? Want to fix high sec? Want player corps to be more competitive? get rid of War decs. But seriously there are more players in player run corps than NPC corps so why are you whining?


He's whining because it is harder to grief people in NPC corps than Player corps.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#372 - 2013-01-30 17:43:58 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
For years I've seen people write on these forums how NPC corps are a "problem". And yet, I've not actually seen anyone explain how NPC corps are a "problem" without resorting to some lengthy description that ultimately culminates into reasons that are nothing more than rants and whines to enrich their own game play at the expense of others'.

So, please...explain to me...why NPC corps are a problem. Please exclude reasons that end up adding kills to your kill board, putting isk into your wallet or forcing people to the play the game the way you like to play it.


It's not that no one has explained this stuff to you, it's that you're biased preconceived notions have prevented you from understanding or accepting the explanations.

As we can see from your post, you have defaulted to the standard "you just want me to play your way/you just want kills/you have an agenda" dodge that allows you to make believe that people who feel differently must be up to something.

It's nonsense. nonsense that I've experienced every single day of my gamer life. It make discussion fruitless, because you types don't want to know why, you simply seek to preserve your own advantages, even at the cost of the game we all play.

I don't gain anything by ccp changing how npc corps work other than the satisfaction that a really backwards way of things has changed. I don't suicide gank or camp or even pvp all that often (there are just too many Sansha and Serpentis that need killing, and most pvp doesn't fill my wallet lol), so the idea that the only people who desire reform in this matter are looking for easy kills is a bold faced lie.

In a game like this, actions and choices should have roughly equal consequences, but 11% tax (on mission runners and exploeres ONLY) and not being able to hold Sov (something most high sec players care nothing about in the 1st place) for War Dec invulnerability is not equal consequences.

NPC corp players should not be forced to leave npc corps, they should be forced to endure the consequences of the game the rest of us do OR pay a higher price for their safety (which is an equal consequence).

I've reached my quota on using the word consequences , but I'm going to use it again with this here epic statement:

A game about consequences should not shield non-new players from consequences, not without "charging" them a high price. One consequence to be dealt with in this game


Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#373 - 2013-01-30 18:00:31 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


. . .

A game about consequences should not shield non-new players from consequences, not without "charging" them a high price. One consequence to be dealt with in this game



I just don't see it. Suppose I only ran missions. What consequences does that have? I make some ISK, but I can't think of any other consequences it has. It doesn't affect Sov, or the balance of power in New Eden.

Oh. I do have to buy ammo, so I guess it has consequences to the market.

The only difference I can see in running missions for an NPC corp is that I know what my bounty and reward taxes are used for.

But who do I hurt by running missions, either for my corp or an NPC corp?

Not everyone plays for the opportunity to hurt other people.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#374 - 2013-01-30 18:01:25 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
No it hasn't.

Yes, they have tried.

Yes, they are going to try again.

Some of you are incredibly deluted. You have no idea how ******* broken your NPC corp is because you've never left it.

Even CCP has refered to the use of the NPC corps as an exploitation of the mechanic that they NEVER intended.

Probably the most broken part about NPC corps aren't people (actual people) who never left them, but player corps who use NPC corp alts to support whatever activities they commit to without putting their non-combat assets out of relative safety.

This significantly contributes to complex "alt problem" that makes many things in EVE obsolete (while, admittedly, making some other activities less tedious).

EVE is a great game, it has a habbit of fostering "interactions" between people. I get a lot of in game emails from people due to my forum posts. I get the oportunity to talk to a lot of people who play differently from me, as well as like me, and from a variety of areas of EVE. This isn't something other games seem capable of doing.

I also exploit the NPC corp mechanic.

The CAS I understand can be "fun" for people to play in. New people who start out in the CAS can find it difficult to leave, because there are people in that corp who make it a point to build a "community" there. CAS is more like a player run corp than an NPC one.

I also talk to a LOT of alts in the other NPC corps. There are a lot of questions asked in the other corp channels, but they're usually questions that someone asks after they've played EVE for a pretty significant time. I mostly see questions revolving around advanced gameplay; not new basic gameplay questions.

Yes, I see mostly older players, generaly alts, communicating in the NPC corps.


What I see most on the forums is, people who are themselves exploiting the NPC corps and don't want it changed, people who've played EVE for a not insignificant amount of time and want all of the benefits of playing in a player run corporation without joining one.

New players do not need access to invention and T2 production.
New players do not need access to exhuamers.
New players do not need acess to most large ships and their T2 variants.

EVERY PLAYER should have access to those things though.
I do not think that it is "fair" to restrict people becaue they prefer to not play within a player run group. Not everyone wants to do that, and there is no justifiable reason to say that every person should.

It is one thing to understand that CCP WANTS us to join player run corps, it's another to say that they should require us to join them.

I agree with people who think the NPC corps should be nerfed, I do not agree with the way in which most of them would like to see CCP go about it. Most people would be happy with arbitrary restrictions, and "unEVElike" mechanics; I'm not. They are simple solutions, that take little work to impliment, but I feel they are poor and uncreative; not very like EVE.



Give us the tools to take matters into our own hands. I think everyone should have access to what they currently do in high sec, but other players should be able to decide how "good" at you can be if you're not working with them.

My problem is not that "they can", it's that "I can't".
Instead of them influencing me, it should be me influencing them. That should be the benefit of playing in a player run corporation.

For example:
If your aliance has control of stations in a high sec region, and you guys decide that the NPC corps will be able to produce T2 goods as well as everyone else, then I can use my wealth to support an alliance that would like to remove you from power and is in favor of charging NPC corps more to produce T2 goods.

That would be more fun, in my opinion, then simply removing the ability of NPC corp members to do T2 production. They can still do it, but it'll be influenced by player run corps, who themselves can be influenced by other player run corps.

I think CCP is capable of doing this in high sec now, and I think it would adress a lot of issues people bring up, as well impact a wide range of playstyles; all across EVE.


I would put my NPC corp alt in a player corporation if there was any benefit in doing so; there is not. No NPC corp nerf or buff to high sec will ever make it more benefitial for me to put my alt into a player run corp.

It's not a corp problem, it's a station one. In particular, who controls the station.
CCP has been a poor custodian of the NPC stations; in my opinion they need to be fired and the players need to be put in control.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#375 - 2013-01-30 18:12:34 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:


I just don't see it. Suppose I only ran missions. What consequences does that have? I make some ISK, but I can't think of any other consequences it has. It doesn't affect Sov, or the balance of power in New Eden.

Oh. I do have to buy ammo, so I guess it has consequences to the market.

The only difference I can see in running missions for an NPC corp is that I know what my bounty and reward taxes are used for.

But who do I hurt by running missions, either for my corp or an NPC corp?

Not everyone plays for the opportunity to hurt other people.

If part of the tax you paid went to a player run corporation in high sec, you wouldn't be an issue.

As it is you do have an impact on the economy. As an individual, not so much, but there's a LOT of individuals doing that.

Ganking you shouldn't be the only way to have an impact on you.
It costs you nothing to have an impact on everyone else. Why in the world is everyone else required to pay to have an impact on you? That doesn't sound at all like EVE.


This is also why it's not a problem with the NPC corporation, but station ownership.

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#376 - 2013-01-30 18:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Not Politically Correct wrote:


I just don't see it.


I know lol.

Suppose I only ran missions. What consequences does that have? I make some ISK, but I can't think of any other consequences it has. It doesn't affect Sov, or the balance of power in New Eden. [/quote]

So you've never used your LP to buy anything? Every item you take from the LP store and put on the market lowers the value of that same item for everyone else.

Quote:

Oh. I do have to buy ammo, so I guess it has consequences to the market.

The only difference I can see in running missions for an NPC corp is that I know what my bounty and reward taxes are used for.

But who do I hurt by running missions, either for my corp or an NPC corp?

Not everyone plays for the opportunity to hurt other people.


and who said anything about hurting other people. Your actions DO have consequences , some of which you cannot even see.

BECAUSE what you do affects others, you too should somehow be affected, either through the threat or actuality of a war dec (which I am NOT adovcating for npc corps), OR (and this is what I suggest) you should pay an alternative cost 9beyond the tiny costs npc corps have right now).

The NPC corp people getting to enjoy the preponderance of stuff in the game while getting to avoid one of its best balancing mechanisms (War) is kinda like people living in a country getting all the benefits of government programs while not paying very much in taxes (while their fellow citizens ARE paying those high taxes). Yea, NPC corps basically = EVE Welfare lol.

people should not be forces out of npc corps and npc corps (except FW corps) should not be war deccable, but the cost npc corp players pay for the awesome benefit of safety is to low and should rise.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#377 - 2013-01-30 18:21:13 UTC

They really need to allow corps to tax all revenue streams in this game...

Refining/Reprocessing, Trade, Missions Rewards, etc....

And then all NPC corps should have fairly un-competitive Tax Rates on all of these revenue streams.... You should ALWAYS be at a disadvantage when residing in a war-dec immune Corp... and that disadvantage should come in the form of taxed revenue streams. That would encourage people to move out of NPC corps... but it won't eliminate it...

I would potentially support the creation of Pacifist Corps -- (Wardeccable Player Corps... with limitations, but also some hurdles to anyone that Wardecs them).

In the end though... there is a fundemental issue here:

Player A doesn't want to engage in Ship-to-Ship Combat....
Player B wants to engage in Ship-to-Ship Combat...

Wardec's allow Player B to engage Player A... which is necessary for the game... However, there is little-to-no incentive for Player A to fight... You can't force him to undock, you can't force him to fight, and in the end, Wardecs often (not always) result in Player A simply not playing and Player B getting no kills... This is fundamentally flawed...

So, how do you encourage a player to Defend themselves... to fight? The truth is, allies are supposed to solve this.. but they haven't yet...

--- I think the "optimal" solution is a player solution... (kinda like dec-shield). Have some group declare a common mining system (like osmon), or a common missioning system (like Dodixie) as their protectorate... Anyone that want's to mine/mission in their system can... and if some "griefer corp" wardecs a corporation operating in their zone of control they'll willing allie up with the carebear to help defend them... That's the optimal solution, and I don't understand why it hasn't happened yet... (You'd think some branch of CVA would do this in the busy Amarr areas)...

In the end, players just need to organize, to group up... and players that hide in NPC corps actually HINDER this process, because they provide an easy-alternative to "stay safe" rather than encourage people to man up!
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#378 - 2013-01-30 18:28:06 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:


I just don't see it. Suppose I only ran missions. What consequences does that have? I make some ISK, but I can't think of any other consequences it has. It doesn't affect Sov, or the balance of power in New Eden.

Oh. I do have to buy ammo, so I guess it has consequences to the market.

The only difference I can see in running missions for an NPC corp is that I know what my bounty and reward taxes are used for.

But who do I hurt by running missions, either for my corp or an NPC corp?

Not everyone plays for the opportunity to hurt other people.

If part of the tax you paid went to a player run corporation in high sec, you wouldn't be an issue.

As it is you do have an impact on the economy. As an individual, not so much, but there's a LOT of individuals doing that.

Ganking you shouldn't be the only way to have an impact on you.
It costs you nothing to have an impact on everyone else. Why in the world is everyone else required to pay to have an impact on you? That doesn't sound at all like EVE.


This is also why it's not a problem with the NPC corporation, but station ownership.



I am a member of a player run corporation in Hi Sec, and why is it important to anyone else to have an impact on me?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#379 - 2013-01-30 18:34:10 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:

I am a member of a player run corporation in Hi Sec, and why is it important to anyone else to have an impact on me?

Because you do not exist in a bubble that has no impact on anyone else.

You have impact on people when you do missions, you create isk.

You have impact on people when you use the market, you contribute to the economy.


YOU SHOULD be rewarded for joining a player run corp, and you are not adiquately rewarded in my opinion.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#380 - 2013-01-30 18:36:48 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:


I just don't see it. Suppose I only ran missions. What consequences does that have? I make some ISK, but I can't think of any other consequences it has. It doesn't affect Sov, or the balance of power in New Eden.

Oh. I do have to buy ammo, so I guess it has consequences to the market.

The only difference I can see in running missions for an NPC corp is that I know what my bounty and reward taxes are used for.

But who do I hurt by running missions, either for my corp or an NPC corp?

Not everyone plays for the opportunity to hurt other people.

If part of the tax you paid went to a player run corporation in high sec, you wouldn't be an issue.

As it is you do have an impact on the economy. As an individual, not so much, but there's a LOT of individuals doing that.

Ganking you shouldn't be the only way to have an impact on you.
It costs you nothing to have an impact on everyone else. Why in the world is everyone else required to pay to have an impact on you? That doesn't sound at all like EVE.


This is also why it's not a problem with the NPC corporation, but station ownership.



I am a member of a player run corporation in Hi Sec, and why is it important to anyone else to have an impact on me?


because you are in competition with everyone else in game....

If you build something, it competes with the goods I build...
If you buy/sell something.... it competes with my buy/sell orders...
If you mine a roid... it prevents me from mining that roid...

Essentially, everything you do in game has an Effect on Supply and Demand of in-game resources... and this impacts everyone... As such, we need tools to impact you back...