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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Author
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1501 - 2013-01-22 19:07:52 UTC
First things first, the cruiser changes were amazing. These changes have brought some new dynamics to the EvE battlefield. I understand that BCs have been the mainstay of EvE players for a long time now, but what do you expect when BS fleets cost upwards of 200m for a ship. I mean I'm Internet space rich, but even I couldn't afford to replace a BS every day....

...but now we've hit the BCs tiericide and we've reached a point of downgrading their EHP to only slightly higher than the new combat cruisers and only slightly higher DPS than the new attack cruisers. That sounds great except for the penalties of the ship being a BC: lower speed, higher sigs, triple the cost, etc. These overall nerfs (yes, I understand some ships have received some buffs, but I personally view these all as almost all negative changes). There either needs to be a massive reduction in their mineral requirements, or there needs to a complete overhaul and a buffing of all Tier 1 and 2 BCs to current level of the FOTY ships (cane/drake).

Now the things I mentioned above aren't really my main concern. I was, however, quite upset to see that Gallente ships have kept their bonuses that make them utterly worthless in small gang and large fleet fights. As people have mentioned earlier in this post, the triple rep Myrm is great because its primary DPS is its drones, thus allowing it to have damage projection and the ability to devote all of its mid and low slots to tank. Drones and autocannons take no cap, which also means the Myrm can focus all of its cap on repping. But due to the limitations of armor reppers that are still present, you're still looking at fighting at most 3 guys.

This does not carry over to the brutix by any means. Fit rail guns for lol damage projection and you're dead when the enemy gets under 10km. Fit blasters and you're dead if they stay outside of 6km. The brutix doesn't have any viable active tanking setup due to the limitations that are hybrid weapons and the need for cap to use those hybrids. Now people may argue that the new AAR "god send" from Fozzie is the brutix's saving grace and the changes to the active armor tanking rigs are mana from heaven.....The brutix received a 50PG buff, but when you look at the changes to active armor tanking rigs (which are a must for active tanking), you won't be able to fit your ship due to PG issues.


Fozzie, you have time to be a hero for the Federation. Make the brutix a viable fleet ship that has two bonuses that are useable for fights involving more than 2 people.

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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1502 - 2013-01-22 19:16:13 UTC
Prisoner No14 wrote:
They are buffing its armor?


What for?

It still can fit 6x425mm T2 +1 med neut+mwd and shield mods +scram and all those lows full of dmg mods+nano or DCU

Yep you get a free slot for a salvager or link on top.

Cane is fine and first of all, real men arty fit their canes ! Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1503 - 2013-01-22 19:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:


Cane is fine and first of all, real men arty fit their canes ! Lol


Mass addition was over the top and clearly harboring some personal distaste for the ship beyond the objective of balance.

The cane has been nerfed harder than any other of the tier2 bcs, by far. Whats needed is a rollback of the +300000 mass to probably 175000.
Carlos Jaegar
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1504 - 2013-01-22 20:06:13 UTC
Really liking the new Cyclone - it's perfectly good with 5 launchers (HAMs)
SuicidalPancake
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1505 - 2013-01-22 21:04:11 UTC
Bout time. Can't wait for these changes

_ _

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1506 - 2013-01-22 21:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:


Cane is fine and first of all, real men arty fit their canes ! Lol


Mass addition was over the top and clearly harboring some personal distaste for the ship beyond the objective of balance.

The cane has been nerfed harder than any other of the tier2 bcs, by far. Whats needed is a rollback of the +300000 mass to probably 175000.


Um. No. The Cane was not nerfed as hard as the Binger, by any stretch of the imagination.

-Liang

Ed: And nor was it as bad to start with.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#1507 - 2013-01-22 21:27:31 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:


Cane is fine and first of all, real men arty fit their canes ! Lol


Mass addition was over the top and clearly harboring some personal distaste for the ship beyond the objective of balance.

The cane has been nerfed harder than any other of the tier2 bcs, by far. Whats needed is a rollback of the +300000 mass to probably 175000.


Fire up your EFT, fit your cane with mwd and add a 400mm plate to simulate mass addition.
23m/s less.
Sigras
Conglomo
#1508 - 2013-01-23 07:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Sigras wrote:
They have this new thing now called an adaptive nano plating that you can use instead of a EANM; it takes no CPU at all . . . you should check it out!


Someone already pointed out that i am stupid, but that still does not change the fact that the ship is a ***** to fit. I already downgraded every other module on it. And also if you downgrade EANM you wont get ehp the op reported. And its a fit that uses 800mm plate. Even cruisers now can fit 1600.

The EHP comes from the fitting screen with the modules on it on the test server . . . i can post screen shots if you dont believe me.

I do have really good fitting skills, so that is part of it, but saying the ship is impossible to fit HPL2s and a plate + MWD is wrong; i was even able to slam a cap booster on there . . . In fact, you might even be able to get away with a 1600mm plate if you change the trimarks for ACRs and drop the cap booster for a scramble . . .

I should try that . . .

ok just tried it . . .

the harb with a 1600mm RRTP; needed to swap the medium cap booster for a small, and one of the trimarks for an ACR

882 m/s (with MWD down from 903 with an 800 plate and 3 trimarks)
51,572 EHP (in eve fitting screen up from 47,835 with the 800 plate)
719 DPS (conflag + valkyeries in eve fitting screen)
547 DPS (scorch + valkyeries in eve fitting screen)
+ Only gets a small cap booster
+ web and LR point.

This is slower but has like 10% more HP . . . not sure which you want to pick.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#1509 - 2013-01-23 08:15:01 UTC
Sigras wrote:

the harb with a 1600mm RRTP; needed to swap the medium cap booster for a small, and one of the trimarks for an ACR

882 m/s (with MWD down from 903 with an 800 plate and 3 trimarks)
51,572 EHP (in eve fitting screen up from 47,835 with the 800 plate)
719 DPS (conflag + valkyeries in eve fitting screen)
547 DPS (scorch + valkyeries in eve fitting screen)
+ Only gets a small cap booster
+ web and LR point.

This is slower but has like 10% more HP . . . not sure which you want to pick.


And again, the problem with that is you are limited by CPU and PG. You have to downgrade everything and even then you need a fitting rig/cpu implant and AWU 5 for fit that is only decent. Try to fit Hurricane, it can fit everything the Harbinger can but it does not need to downgrade EANM, point, damage control etc. And can use that utility high, you can get away with AWU4 etc.

The problem is that this is a balancing patch and the gap between Harbinger and other bc only grow bigger. It has crap tank, is incredibly slow, lowest agility in class, hardest fitting. It brings nothing on the table except damage projection with mediocre dps.

Not like any alliance/corporation had Harbingers in their doctrines like Drake and Hurricane, not like anyone ever said "they fly harbys we are fuck3d". There was really no reason to nerf it this much.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1510 - 2013-01-23 09:19:55 UTC
There is no point talking about the Harbinger. The fitting requirements have been and will still be too tight.

If the main Amarrian gunboat can't reach the level of the ArmorCane, then something's wrong.

Buff its fitting requirements so that it can at least fit a 1600mm T2, Heavy Pulses and a MWD without any fitting mods. Then maybe cancel the CPU nerf and that should do.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#1511 - 2013-01-23 09:45:18 UTC
With the changes coming to Active Tanking, I really don't see the Harby being fitable without gimping the **** out of itself.

I does need to be looked at once more.

On the plus side, armour cane will be q little more nimble, as wil the myrm and brutix
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1512 - 2013-01-23 11:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
I also found the fitting on the Harbinger very restrictive. It's worse than before.

The Brutix needs to have its active tanking bonus replaced by something else (falloff bonus). The Myrmidon is already quite capable in this area and makes the Brutix' active tanking bonus redundant.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1513 - 2013-01-23 12:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
SMT008 wrote:
There is no point talking about the Harbinger. The fitting requirements have been and will still be too tight.

If the main Amarrian gunboat can't reach the level of the ArmorCane, then something's wrong.

Buff its fitting requirements so that it can at least fit a 1600mm T2, Heavy Pulses and a MWD without any fitting mods. Then maybe cancel the CPU nerf and that should do.


Who the **** says you should be able to fit all the tank you want, mobility and gank?

I'm fine with the harb needing a ACR to use Heavies as long as canes need ACR's to fit 420's

Takeshi Yamato wrote:
I also found the fitting on the Harbinger very restrictive. It's worse than before.

The Brutix needs to have its active tanking bonus replaced by something else (falloff bonus). The Myrmidon is already quite capable in this area and makes the Brutix' active tanking bonus redundant.


Stop trying to change every god damn ship in the game into a fecking shield kiter ffs. Brutix will be one of the best god damn BC's to come out of these changes/armor changes.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sabine Vynneve
Paisti
#1514 - 2013-01-23 12:34:26 UTC
Is there any new more detailed information on how (and if) capital ship skill requirements will change? Latest mention I can find is the blog post from last year simply saying that capital skills will require only racial battleship IV, but new skills will be introduced instead.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#1515 - 2013-01-23 12:43:08 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Sigras wrote:

the harb with a 1600mm RRTP; needed to swap the medium cap booster for a small, and one of the trimarks for an ACR

882 m/s (with MWD down from 903 with an 800 plate and 3 trimarks)
51,572 EHP (in eve fitting screen up from 47,835 with the 800 plate)
719 DPS (conflag + valkyeries in eve fitting screen)
547 DPS (scorch + valkyeries in eve fitting screen)
+ Only gets a small cap booster
+ web and LR point.

This is slower but has like 10% more HP . . . not sure which you want to pick.


And again, the problem with that is you are limited by CPU and PG. You have to downgrade everything and even then you need a fitting rig/cpu implant and AWU 5 for fit that is only decent. Try to fit Hurricane, it can fit everything the Harbinger can but it does not need to downgrade EANM, point, damage control etc. And can use that utility high, you can get away with AWU4 etc.

The problem is that this is a balancing patch and the gap between Harbinger and other bc only grow bigger. It has crap tank, is incredibly slow, lowest agility in class, hardest fitting. It brings nothing on the table except damage projection with mediocre dps.

Not like any alliance/corporation had Harbingers in their doctrines like Drake and Hurricane, not like anyone ever said "they fly harbys we are fuck3d". There was really no reason to nerf it this much.


the cane has so much more PG to fit a tank with, because autocannons do not eat as many grid as puls laser do. iirc, autocannons have the smallest fitting requirements. this is the reason behind the powergrid nerf for the cane in the last patch, however you cant reduce the cane's PG much more because then its getting impossible to fit arties (iirc the guns with the highest pg demand). if you ask me, the enormous disparity between artie and autocannon is a bad heritage from earlier days.
as for the comparison between harbinger and cane, harbinger should get some more fittings. its good to have a restricting fitting resource, but restricting in both CPU and PG is over the top. i guess a slight restriction in CPU for the harbinger would be good, as to have a sanitiy check on utility fit to the med slots, but PG should only be an issue for extreme chases, where you try to fit the biggest version of everything.

Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#1516 - 2013-01-23 15:34:09 UTC
Try to fit beams on harbinger. Lol.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#1517 - 2013-01-23 16:58:08 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Fozzie, you have time to be a hero for the Federation. Make the brutix a viable fleet ship that has two bonuses that are useable for fights involving more than 2 people.
+1
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1518 - 2013-01-23 19:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Ok time to get feedback on the next iteration.

Once of the things we have refocused on since this thread started is that with warfare link changes potentially on the not too distant horizon we needed to build these ships for the warfare links we want rather than the warfare links we have. The ability to use warfare links is a key part of what gives these ships their identity, even if that has been watered down in recent years.
As such we're working to ensure that each of these ships can fit a warfare link without sacrificing a bonused highslot. We eventually want links to be something you use on field and part of that will be ensuring that you can use links while also also enjoying the normal on-grid gameplay.

To get these highslots back we've moved the new slot on the Ferox from low to high, and given the Brutix and Drake the "double damage bonus fewer weapons" treatment.

We've also taken feedback from this thread and Sisi testing to make some adjustments to some other ships.

Most notably:
  • The Harb was simply too hard to fit, and I had been too aggressive in reducing its fittings to go along with the slot change. So we've returned some fittings and brought it back to its old align time (while keeping the mass a bit higher).
  • The Myrm was suffering too much from not being able to hold two full flights of drones, so we've doubled the dronebay buff to ensure that you can always have a full set of spares.

  • The rep bonuses on both Gallente combat battlecruisers remain in this version. I do feel that they can be well served by the bonus and still remain unique to each other's playstyle. I am however not set in stone on the issue and won't rule out changing it either before or after 1.1 if it appears the current bonuses are not able to keep them both fun and unique enough.


  • I'm about to update the OP to the new values, our changes in this version relative to the originally posted version are:

    Prophecy:
    Hull: -250

    Harbinger:
    Powergrid: +100
    CPU: +25
    Agility: -0.014
    Align time: -0.2s

    Ferox:
    Highslots: +1
    Lowslots: -1
    Powergrid: +150
    Hull: -250
    Agility: +0.01
    Mass: -260,000

    Drake:
    Change Kinetic Missile damage bonus from 5 to 10% per level
    Launchers: -1
    Powergrid: -40
    CPU: -15
    Hull: -250

    Brutix:
    Change Medium Hybrid damage bonus from 5 to 10% per level
    Turrets: -1
    Powergrid: -75
    Hull: -250
    Mass: +250,000
    Align time: +0.1s

    Myrmidon:
    Dronebay: +25

    Cyclone:
    Powergrid: -100
    Shields: +250
    Armor: -250
    Hull: +250
    Capacitor: +600
    Cap Recharge time: +158s
    Sensor strength: +1

    Hurricane:
    Lock Range: +5km

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

    Seleucus Ontuas
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1519 - 2013-01-23 19:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleucus Ontuas
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Yun Kuai wrote:
    Fozzie, you have time to be a hero for the Federation. Make the brutix a viable fleet ship that has two bonuses that are useable for fights involving more than 2 people.
    +1


    Fozzie, this feels a bit like a let down. C'mon man, either the Brutix or the Myrmidon has to lose the rep bonus. I've been using the Ferox as a fleet ship since January 2012, but I'd really like to be able to use a Gallente ship for fleet and not rely on Caldari.
    mynnna
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #1520 - 2013-01-23 19:27:52 UTC
    Gonna miss the 5th low on the Ferox, it was really nice to have. The reasons are sound though.

    Nice to see the harbinger got the needed buffs.

    Can't imagine anyone will complain about the max-skill buffs to DPS you just gave the brutix and drake, too. Bear

    Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal