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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#2381 - 2013-01-21 15:23:57 UTC
Cid Tazer wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
Cid Tazer wrote:


I don't think this kind of plan is the most desireable way to go due to not fixing the functionality that is already there but very painful to use. I'd go with something more like:

Point Release 1: Rework POS interactions with inventory, corp roles, POS gunnery

Point Release 2: Rework POS interaction with industry (to coincide with work on manufacturing/research UI work in general)

Point Release 3: Rework POS interactions with SOV structures

Point Release 4: Release new pos creation system

Point Release 5: New pos structures


The problem with a plan like this is that it's missing the very large chunk of work/code that is needed to re-work the current code base to allow the changes.

Like many other 'early' features in EvE, POSes are based on code tweaked into doing stuff it wasn't coded for, and made to work a lot of voodoo and other practices of dark arts.

A splash of new paint and some go-faster stripes will not help when the problem is deep in core functionality.

CCP is well aware of the work needed, and that they have to dig down and do it right, which will take time and resources.


Actually I was trying to take that into account with the first 3 releases by having them rework the interactions that were the old spaghetti code and current functionality that we like what we can do but hate how we have to do it.


As a software guy I agree with Lors. They can't really tweak the current POS code much. It has to be a ground up rewrite. If they use new code they can create the new starbase system much faster than trying to work with the old system. It will need to be developed in parallel to the old POS system to allow for it to mature enough to take over.

My example, which was just a quick concept, is that they get a very basic system in place that provides new functionality. Then, new modules and processes can be ported over one step at a time. If they could provide a core module with a personal hangar module and the ability to anchor and allow for docking then we would have a great first step. Just that alone will have a tremendous amount of planning required but everything after that would just fall into place.

_ _
Raid'En
#2382 - 2013-01-21 15:34:40 UTC
CCP Seagull wrote:
When we talk about "the POS system" only affecting a "small portion of the community", we are referring to the focus of the prototype, not to the current starbase system or the concept of the full "modular POS system" - but this does not come across well in the CSM Summit minutes.

you should have said so 100 pages ago :/
Rengerel en Distel
#2383 - 2013-01-21 15:43:54 UTC
There are a few things they could do to tweak the current system. You could make it director only can cancel someone elses job. Director only can offline/unanchor a module. Maybe a bigger secure container that can't be launched in empire space.

I still think however that putting the full force of real talent into the modular, personal POS mechanics will lead to a much better EVE for everyone.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#2384 - 2013-01-21 15:57:23 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
Some of you are so easily pacified. None of what Seagull said changed their direction in any way. All Seagull did was explain some comments.

You're still not getting a POS revamp this year.

I tend to agree with you, yet I'm not sure what we can do at this point to change that. The key for me was this phrase
CCP Seagull wrote:

But just like both me and CCP Unifex talked about in our recent devblogs, and in the summit sessions, we need to work out how we can realize each piece of that, using our new processes.

I think CCP already knows how bad POS's are, I think they already know what great new gameplay can be brought in with them, I think they honestly really want to do a POS revamp but fundamentally the POS revamp as players envision it is just too big to do in any meaningful form under the new design strategy. And not just in one or two releases (we already knew that), it's probably too big to do ever now, or will take several (as in 3-4) years to do not 2-3 releases. And they certainly can't come out and say that right now. I fear we may get a few cosmetic interface things done in a few releases to calm the rabble down and allow CCP to say they are working on it. But the full modular POS's tied to SOV type ideas I think that died when they adopted the new design flow chart.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#2385 - 2013-01-21 16:01:09 UTC

All I wanted to read was, "yes its possible we are going to take on the problems with POS in small steps".
I still read, can't be done, our prototype shows it's too big to chew off.

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2386 - 2013-01-21 16:23:20 UTC
I am a small portion of the community.


Nothing short of modular stations would be acceptable in the long term. My subscriptions are on the line again just like they were for P2W and WiS.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#2387 - 2013-01-21 16:42:02 UTC
A lot of words just to say Soon™.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2388 - 2013-01-21 16:43:32 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
Some of you are so easily pacified. None of what Seagull said changed their direction in any way. All Seagull did was explain some comments.

You're still not getting a POS revamp this year.


Agreed, it's still the exact same situation as before. They need to start fixing POS issues instead of just talking about it and promising that there will be changes. The most obvious fixes that can be done before any modular pos stuff or the rest is quite simply in the roles. They need to be made more flexible so that a role can be specified on a tower to tower basis. This alone would fix a ton of security issues and as such make lots of people happy, despite POS's still having lots of unresolved issues.

And yes, it really would be just that simple. No new mechanics, just expanding of the already existing ones. If by some sideproduct of this, the roles management interface is made easier to use and manage, all the better.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#2389 - 2013-01-21 17:04:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
But the full modular POS's tied to SOV type ideas I think that died when they adopted the new design flow chart.

I get impression, that new chart is like "we are working on it!", 100% time when you ask €€P about something. Delivering? What? We are still working on it! Roll

Deadlines? You must be kidding, look at this chart, then at me, then again at this chart. Are you serious? There should be an infinity symbol "∞" down there. Lol

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Fergus Runkle
Truth and Reconciliation Council
#2390 - 2013-01-21 17:06:47 UTC
CCP Seagull wrote:
Hey all

Thank you for your participation in this discussion.

First, let me spell out what we agree on in CCP:

  • The current starbase system has a number of usability problems and design issues that cause pain for pretty much anyone who uses a starbase.
  • People use starbases for a number of different purposes in the game, and many of the areas of the game where they form a key part, are ones we haven't iterated on in a long time - or the starbases are so fundamental to a type of gameplay, that the shortcomings of the existing system are felt daily.
  • Lots more people are affected by starbases and starbase-related mechanics in the game, than just the people that manage them - and there are many cases where they are managed and used by "Enablers" and "Instigators" who use the capabilities of the starbase in the schemes of a larger group.
  • Structures that players create, own, build and do stuff with is a very cool thing. We can see tons of potential in how a re-vamped system could both fix the stuff that's broken about the existing system, and open up for all kinds of exciting new things for both new and old players to do in EVE.

For all of these reasons, we wanted to create a new and better system, and started work to design and prototype an approach dubbed "modular POS:es" last release - the system you have heard about in various places.

The result was design work and a prototype, where the prototype and art requirements were centered on stuff that was very cool for the person creating the starbase. This was not the entire ambition of the design, but it was where the prototype and art requirements were focused. Because there were too many open questions around the functionality outside the features for starbase creation, we could not responsibly green light the design to go into production for the summer expansion. When we talk about "the POS system" only affecting a "small portion of the community", we are referring to the focus of the prototype, not to the current starbase system or the concept of the full "modular POS system" - but this does not come across well in the CSM Summit minutes.

The potential for player created and owned structures in EVE is great. But just like both me and CCP Unifex talked about in our recent devblogs, and in the summit sessions, we need to work out how we can realize each piece of that, using our new processes. One expansion worth of work won't be able to address all the problems with the current system, while also giving us all the new possibilities. While we weren't ready to commit to implementing the prototype we have at the moment, we are not abandoning either starbases or their potential.

You will see the first results of our new way of planning expansions towards the end of February, and you can follow the process through the CSM participation and also some updates I'll be giving. I can't and won't promise that specific features or fixes will be part of the summer expansion until we have gone through our pre-production phase.

Thanks for reading this, and for engaging in this discussion.


Thank you for taking the time to read this thread and respond. I think you will find one of the reasons this thread has grown so fast is we players read the minutes and we are shown a CCP that one one hand wants to make a offline fitting tool which would be nice (if we didn't already have those tools OR you had done 7 years ago) and yet on the other hand appears to say we are not going to fix POS.

The POS and corporate management tools are some of the oldest mechanics left in game and sooner or later CCP is going to run out of little / simple wins and will have to step up and JUST PLEASE FIX THEM!
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#2391 - 2013-01-21 17:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
They can't really tweak the current POS code much. It has to be a ground up rewrite.


That's what i have been thinking too. Take those input and output resources, just make POS's easier to use. Unified, easy to use GUI for POS with easy access and queve bars like in skill training queve, upgradable modules, that are like puzzle, who even child know where to put. Or just dumb everything down, and use central module only that will be expanded in one click, just put some resources in hangar.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Ciara Talari
The New Eden Yacht Club
The New Eden Yacht Club.
#2392 - 2013-01-21 17:31:55 UTC
*Cracks whip*
Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
#2393 - 2013-01-21 17:46:33 UTC
CCP Seagull wrote:
When we talk about "the POS system" only affecting a "small portion of the community", we are referring to the focus of the prototype, not to the current starbase system or the concept of the full "modular POS system" - but this does not come across well in the CSM Summit minutes.

I appreciate the effort at communication, but I'm stumbling over this bit.

Of course development prototypes aren't going to have a broad impact on the community, they shouldn't go onto the production servers at all.

As soon as anything gets released to TQ everybody and their dog will be all over it.
HaydenJD
War Crime Syndicate
#2394 - 2013-01-21 17:47:51 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
They can't really tweak the current POS code much. It has to be a ground up rewrite.


That's what i have been thinking too. Take those input and output resources, just make POS's easier to use. Unified, easy to use GUI for POS with easy access and queve bars like in skill training queve, upgradable modules, that are like puzzle, who even child know where to put. Or just dumb everything down, and use central module only that will be expanded in one click, just put some resources in hangar.


Easier to use I'm all for, making it so bloody simple a child could do It I'd rather not have it changed to. EVE is a complicated game, it's part of the appeal. Don't make it so easy for people that it encourages laziness.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#2395 - 2013-01-21 18:14:55 UTC
Well CCP, thanks for some clarification on your thoughts. Many players have given theirs. You have bought a month and a bit of time. Please use it wisely.

If your new process does not allow you to address what needs to be fixed... you have much bigger issues than POS's.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#2396 - 2013-01-21 18:19:37 UTC
Lady Zarrina wrote:
Well CCP, thanks for some clarification on your thoughts. Many players have given theirs. You have bought a month and a bit of time. Please use it wisely.

If your new process does not allow you to address what needs to be fixed... you have much bigger issues than POS's.


Considering the scale and potential POSs have on Eve as a whole, I would doubt there's many issues that are bigger atm.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
vikari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2397 - 2013-01-21 18:20:54 UTC
Can the CSM keep up with CCP, and question as to when they envision POSs receiving their first integration into this new theme expansion concept they have? Are we looking at something in the mid range (winter) or long term (2014 and beyond)?
Infinite Force
#2398 - 2013-01-21 18:42:07 UTC
Lady Zarrina wrote:
Well CCP, thanks for some clarification on your thoughts. Many players have given theirs. You have bought a month and a bit of time. Please use it wisely.

If your new process does not allow you to address what needs to be fixed... you have much bigger issues than POS's.

This.

How many pages can we get this thread up to??? I wonder .... .... ....

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#2399 - 2013-01-21 18:48:57 UTC
Quote:
How many pages can we get this thread up to??? I wonder .... .... ....


... over 9000?

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Banlish
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#2400 - 2013-01-21 19:01:35 UTC

I've tried to stay off of EVE-O forums for a long time, but this one made even me come out of my lurking.

I'm one of those old guys who's been around basically since the beginning, I watched 0.0 open up when there weren't names for the regions yet. When the npc conquerable stations were created to give us a place to live BESIDES POS's because POS living in all of 0.0 was quite annoying. This was when litterally every single 0.0 dweller lived out of a POS, only those able to live out of NPC space in 0.0 were able to have the comforts of a station.

I say that to let you know I've worked with POS's, not a little bit, not a small bit, not a medium amount, a metric TON worth. When I hit my 2,000th POS I setup in 2012 I stopped tracking it, it wasn't a matter of pride anymore it was the most annoying thing I've ever done in a game ever. Remember when EVERY module took 10 minutes to anchor and 10 minutes to online? And if you didn't link them correctly you 'just' had to clear the links and reonline them again for another 20 minutes? Yeah.... that was awesome. Immersive even.

At my height I've run almost 70 POS's at once, and every day since 2005 I've run at least 1 Caldari large in empire, now up to 4 Caldari larges for my 19 alts. How people make decent money WITHOUT being effected by POS's I truly don't understand.

Almost anyone that plays for longer then a few months works up to tech 2 items, whether that item is a tech 2 gun, tech 2 drone, tech 2 mining laser, tech 2 tanking mod or tech 2 hull they get into tech 2 to some degree. Every single tech 2 item EVER made has come from a POS, whether it's the raw moon minerals minded, reacted, combined into components, built into the tech 2 item or the vast majority of invention I believe takes place in a POS lab to gain the bpc's. POS's are something hate to deal with, my entire corp has a meme of "Ban loves POS's!" or "Ban will show you how to setup a reaction chain" simply because I've given POS's the finger in the last months, it took almost 8 years but it finally broke me. I just can't handle them how they are anymore, I gave up a 70+ moon chain to an ally alliance and begged the corp not to moon mine as a corp anymore. Yup, it got that bad.

Now with all that said, and sorry for the length of it. I would love to see a POS rework with some of the very good suggestions I've heard from CCP and the community. Yes, even a bitter old vet like me still believes there is a good way to fix things and make another segment of the game a feature that people enjoy instead of despise.


If you are going to 'fix it' please remember the following things I've heard others suggest and maybe a few I haven't.

1. XL POS's for carebearing but NOT a bigger weapons array would be nice.
2. Being able to dock in a POS like we do in a station, even if everything is lost if the POS dies is something I doubt anyone would disagree with.
3. Modular POS's would be awesome, something that is like a lego set would be much better then the clunky system that has been the same for almost 9 years now.
4. Please enable a SAVEABLE POS setup, so if I deploy a POS, online it and put all the modules in the field it would begin setting up those modules like my saved configuration. However it would NOT arm any weapon. Please, setting up 12 large POS's during a regional invasion across 3 systems on 3 characters on a Friday night was the first time my wife called me 'a giant nerd for that boring crap.'
5. Please make it easier to open up POS usage to alliance mates or even the general public if we so chose, research slots, build slots, invention slots, copy slots, please make it better then just ME and PE slots we can share currently.
6. A smoother interface would be much appreciated - P.I. has the means to make POS links, routing, roles and such very easy please consider parts of it into the new POS system, however please remember 'the less clicks the better."
7. Please for all that is holy make it easier to move items around a POS, I have a tower in empire with 16 equipment arrays on it, even with the most ideal configuration it can take me close to 10 minutes to move my freighter around the arrays to gather the 96 jobs. I don't see a reason why having limits within the POS shield for moving items or gathering jobs is needed anymore, please, please, PLEASE remove it. If it's not combat related, don't make it 'take so much time' anymore. You want us to pvp more, reduce the clicks!
8. Want more people to use POS's, enable some way for corps to be able to allow any member to anchor a deal with his own POS, without A. spamming the corp with his fuel messages. B. Forcing us to trust him to give him the roles to be able to setup his OWN POS C. Know the very detailed corp system that would enable us currently give a single character roles for his own POS's that is a clockwork nightmare to deal with currently.
9. Open up anchoring in 0.8 to 0.9 for some faction of players that are for 'their faction only' give em rewards, open more moons, everyone wins.
10. Create tools that would allow players to turn POS's in empire systems WITHOUT STATIONS to make those systems usable towards that holding npc empire. Think of the vice-roy idea you guys mentioned to us and we've never heard of again in almost 4 years, it's not as over powered as allowing low sec stations to be controlled, but if someone put up a POS and fueled it for a good long time in a empty 0.6 and players wanted to take advantage of it and pay the owner for the privilege, hey good on them and let em do it.


Yes, I get wordy, that's my thing. I've been dealing with POS's far too long and would love to see them become as easy as certain structures or 'bases' in other games. Owning space or something IN SPACE drew me to EVE and if I could recapture that feeling of building up something in space I'd love to see it draw in others.