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Farmers and FW: throwing them off the castle wall

Author
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
#81 - 2013-01-17 16:07:26 UTC
Please post on your main so we can all see just how "active" in FW you were, oh wait like that would ever happen.
FYI just because someone disagrees with your very shortsighted opinion doesn't mean you have to post it 37 times in the same thread. You come off like an enormous douche.

ground ctrl wrote:


How long do you have to play a game before you can post on it?

If the idea is that only people who are currently playing a game are allowed to post then of course it will be all roses - after all people who don't like the game tend to stop playing it.

Just like most catholic priests do not think the celebacy requirement is too onerous. Well if they did think it was too onerous they wouldn't be priests now would they?

If you don't want to hear the views of people who no longer play the game because of problems then don't read the forums.

nom nom

ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#82 - 2013-01-17 16:17:49 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
Please post on your main so we can all see just how "active" in FW you were, oh wait like that would ever happen.
FYI just because someone disagrees with your very shortsighted opinion doesn't mean you have to post it 37 times in the same thread. You come off like an enormous douche.

ground ctrl wrote:


How long do you have to play a game before you can post on it?

If the idea is that only people who are currently playing a game are allowed to post then of course it will be all roses - after all people who don't like the game tend to stop playing it.

Just like most catholic priests do not think the celebacy requirement is too onerous. Well if they did think it was too onerous they wouldn't be priests now would they?

If you don't want to hear the views of people who no longer play the game because of problems then don't read the forums.




My mains subscription lapsed because after playing fw I learned it is still broken. Cearain and Cearaen are my pvp characters.

I don't care if people disagree with my opinions. Really if you like camping gates and collecting frigate kills in your sensor boosted arty thrasher thats fine. Its not my thing, but I hope you have fun. If DCM and cynthia enjoy deplexing by multiboxing alt accounts thats fine. I really hope they have fun too. But thats not appealing to me.

But if someone isn't going to respond to the actual points/suggestions I make about the game, other than just assert they are "short sighted" and then say I come off as a douche - well don't expect any respect in return.

Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
#83 - 2013-01-17 16:50:55 UTC
IDK maybe just accept it didn't work for you and move on. It's obviously not for everyone.

Oh and BTW, the sensor booster thrasher is called ADAPTING. You see, some squids won't fight me. So I force them to fight. And I do it a way that makes them realize they would be better off just giving me the GF in the first place. At least then they won't lose a pod and die without firing a shot.

But I suppose not everyone is flexible enough to change up tactics on a whim to adapt to a given situation. Personally that's what I love about Eve. So many ways to pew stuff :) You want to play the game only 1 way, that's cool but it doesn't mean it's **** for everyone else.

ground ctrl wrote:

My mains subscription lapsed because after playing fw I learned it is still broken. Cearain and Cearaen are my pvp characters.

I don't care if people disagree with my opinions. Really if you like camping gates and collecting frigate kills in your sensor boosted arty thrasher thats fine. Its not my thing, but I hope you have fun. If DCM and cynthia enjoy deplexing by multiboxing alt accounts thats fine. I really hope they have fun too. But thats not appealing to me.

But if someone isn't going to respond to the actual points/suggestions I make about the game, other than just assert they are "short sighted" and then say I come off as a douche - well don't expect any respect in return.


nom nom

ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#84 - 2013-01-17 19:53:37 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
IDK maybe just accept it didn't work for you and move on. It's obviously not for everyone.

Oh and BTW, the sensor booster thrasher is called ADAPTING. You see, some squids won't fight me. So I force them to fight. And I do it a way that makes them realize they would be better off just giving me the GF in the first place. At least then they won't lose a pod and die without firing a shot.



So you would prefer goodfights but you cant get them so you somewhat reluctantly fit the sensor boosters to whore killmails. Some people would doubt you, but I don't. When I couldn't find good fights I considered doing this too.

I even bought some ships to do that and got a kill or two. Of course that was always an option that I had as people have been camping stations and gates with sensor boosted ships for years. I am glad you get enjoyment from it but its not cutting it for me.

But lets stick to with what you said you would prefer - Good fights. You said you weren't getting the fights and thats what lead to you flying the sensorboosted arty thrasher. That is my observation as well. Why aren't we getting enough good fights?

Are we the only ones in eve who wish we could get more good pvp fights?

How many people do you think have left eve because good fights were too hard to come by?

Is there not a thread on warfare and tactics describing how boring eve pvp is because good fights are hard to come by? Have you not seen countless other threads witht he same complaint?

I mean you try to act like I am all alone in wanting mechanics that promote frequent quality pvp but if you honestly answer the questions above I am sure you will realize that eve and ccp would greatly benefit from making FW a mechanic where you can get frequent quality pvp.

Just because the people who find eve boring because of the long waits between fights don't say subscribed forever that doesn't mean eve wouldn't be way better if they made a part of eve where people could get frequent quality pvp.

If they did that with faction war I don't think we would see fw gain 5000 null sec alt farmers. We would see faction war and indeed eve as a whole gain 50-100k new subscriptions - on the conservative end.

But whatever, jsut stop acting like I am the only one who would like to see eve provide a mechanic for frequent quality pvp.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#85 - 2013-01-17 19:57:22 UTC
If Eve is boring to you then leave. Please.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#86 - 2013-01-17 20:31:41 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
If Eve is boring to you then leave. Please.


"Adapt or die"

XG helping eve-o forums live up to their reputation of being full of worthless posts. What would happen to them without you?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#87 - 2013-01-17 20:46:03 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
"Adapt or die"

You don't adapt. You just whine.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#88 - 2013-01-18 00:03:28 UTC
Sorry to hear Cearain got bugged and is nonfunctional. Mostly because you are still here on ground ctrl doing the same job.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#89 - 2013-01-18 08:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Snake
Merdaneth wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
to get rid of farmers ... get rid of the tier system ....and cut the lp store profit .... farmers will vanish ....

reverse timers etc are useless there are tons of farmable systems ..... and second level of farming is running missions on high tiers.


You didn't read the OP very well. This is not to remove farming, farmers are a part of EVE. This is merely to at least give people that avoid fights a disincentive to do so, and to give people who try and get fights an incentive to do so. I don't care if the people that warp out are farmers or not, merely that not staying and fighting should have some kind of penalty.

This penalty will have a side-effect of reducing farming, but I don't think (and don't want) to stop it.


u haven't read my post ... this will not even reduce farming by a bit .... if you chase away farmer from plex he usually does not return. He just goes to other distant system.

Point is farmers affect the game of system control (which was not in the past) and they also affect the market games a lot. Both are by my humble opinion **** sir and it is ruining game for everyone. Because despite all the gallente and minnie smack on forums if CCP allows and the farmhorde will rollover to the other side no fastforward patches will save you (actually one could, but it would mean I won and CCP Fozzie ****** it up).

http://facwarstats.appspot.com/ <<< here u can see where the farmhorde is now ... Amarr hold your hats.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#90 - 2013-01-18 09:10:11 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
u haven't read my post ... this will not even reduce farming by a bit .... if you chase away farmer from plex he usually does not return. He just goes to other distant system....

It will reduce it, simply because the profits from it will plummet.

Farming works because defender (PvP'er) does not want to waste time babysitting timers, especially with extra time on them so the farmer can have several 'active' plexes to work with and just warp around with the only time lost being the time it takes to warp+accel. gate.

Resetting timers would make offensive plexing something to do in blobs so make sure you don't suddenly 'lose' 15 minutes and is to me an exceedingly poor idea.
Auto-run timers on the other hand lets the PvP'er penalise the farmer for running without having to stop, if he runs the time it takes him to get back is effectively lost to him.

End result will be a shift towards missions again, but they 'only' affect the markets (which have been crashed for 1+ year so 'meh') and not the all important docking and/or WZC .. while not all that needs to be done to bring balance to the risk/reward of FW it would be a solid step in the right direction.

PS: And yes, farmer can just pull stakes and go far, far away .. but as control stabilizes, people spread out and that ninja wannabe gets a brand new group of followers --> missions.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#91 - 2013-01-18 09:28:39 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
u haven't read my post ... this will not even reduce farming by a bit .... if you chase away farmer from plex he usually does not return. He just goes to other distant system....

It will reduce it, simply because the profits from it will plummet.

Farming works because defender (PvP'er) does not want to waste time babysitting timers, especially with extra time on them so the farmer can have several 'active' plexes to work with and just warp around with the only time lost being the time it takes to warp+accel. gate.

Resetting timers would make offensive plexing something to do in blobs so make sure you don't suddenly 'lose' 15 minutes and is to me an exceedingly poor idea.
Auto-run timers on the other hand lets the PvP'er penalise the farmer for running without having to stop, if he runs the time it takes him to get back is effectively lost to him.

End result will be a shift towards missions again, but they 'only' affect the markets (which have been crashed for 1+ year so 'meh') and not the all important docking and/or WZC .. while not all that needs to be done to bring balance to the risk/reward of FW it would be a solid step in the right direction.

PS: And yes, farmer can just pull stakes and go far, far away .. but as control stabilizes, people spread out and that ninja wannabe gets a brand new group of followers --> missions.



backwater systems .... no change to farming ....
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-01-18 10:23:02 UTC
If you have chased of the attacker, why don't you not just run down the timer?


Merdaneth wrote:
1. The timer is immediately reset to its neutral state if an opposing side is alone in the plex
If you are attacking, and you invested 13 minutes into a 15 minute timer, and you are run off, then you the timer resets and when you return, you'll again need 15 minutes to capture the plex. This way someone chasing off a farmer has actually gained 13 minutes time for his faction, for a 1 minute investment (the warp to the plex). He can chose to stay and invest 15 minutes of his time to run the timer all the way down and take the plex for his side, or he can move on chasing others out of plexes: you've thrown the attacker off the wall.


This means that a medium/large gang can defend every plex is a large number of systems, by forcing the attackers to warp out resetting the timer and moving on.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#93 - 2013-01-18 11:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Snake
dexington wrote:
If you have chased of the attacker, why don't you not just run down the timer?


Merdaneth wrote:
1. The timer is immediately reset to its neutral state if an opposing side is alone in the plex
If you are attacking, and you invested 13 minutes into a 15 minute timer, and you are run off, then you the timer resets and when you return, you'll again need 15 minutes to capture the plex. This way someone chasing off a farmer has actually gained 13 minutes time for his faction, for a 1 minute investment (the warp to the plex). He can chose to stay and invest 15 minutes of his time to run the timer all the way down and take the plex for his side, or he can move on chasing others out of plexes: you've thrown the attacker off the wall.


This means that a medium/large gang can defend every plex is a large number of systems, by forcing the attackers to warp out resetting the timer and moving on.




well nanoatron is faster then most of the crap flying around now ... or nanoslasher ... so he will just burn out and back .... and also cloaky farmers will cause more problems. CCP is not solving rootcause just patching the hole and making new holes.

And conservating the actual state of the battlefield, because offensive plexing will become much more tougher in populated systems (there will be no tactics of ships sitting in more plexes and comming for fight etc. - just blob or nothing).
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#94 - 2013-01-18 14:39:17 UTC
If ccp did 2 things plexing would be an awesome pvp game and there would be no more farming:

1) If you warp off when an enemy (or neutal?) is on your grid or on grid with your accell gate then the timer goes 3 minutes in your enemies favor. Not just to zero. So If you are plexing a minor for 1 minute and get chased off your enemy now only has 8 minutes to close the plex. If you leave a plex with no enemies around then the timer stays where it is at. (we don't want to punish people for leaving a plex to fight in another nearby plex) Perhaps we could even say if your ship blows up in the plex and you warp out in your pod you still don't lose the 3 minutes. Again encouraging people to stay and fight.

2) Notify us when plexes are entered and left. Just when where and plextype so we can go fight them. They are supposedly our military complexes ffs. How can the militias not know when they are attacked?


Its really that simple. If a militia is immediately notified and still can't cover the distance in 3 minutes to chase out rabbits (and thereby make farming impossible) then they likely need to spread out their blob.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#95 - 2013-01-18 14:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
ground ctrl wrote:
If ccp did 2 things plexing would be an awesome pvp game and there would be no more farming:

1) If you warp off when an enemy (or neutal?) is on your grid or on grid with your accell gate then the timer goes 3 minutes in your enemies favor. Not just to zero. So If you are plexing a minor for 1 minute and get chased off your enemy now only has 8 minutes to close the plex. If you leave a plex with no enemies around then the timer stays where it is at. (we don't want to punish people for leaving a plex to fight in another nearby plex) Perhaps we could even say if your ship blows up in the plex and you warp out in your pod you still don't lose the 3 minutes. Again encouraging people to stay and fight.

2) Notify us when plexes are entered and left. Just when where and plextype so we can go fight them. They are supposedly our military complexes ffs. How can the militias not know when they are attacked?


Its really that simple. If a militia is immediately notified and still can't cover the distance in 3 minutes to chase out rabbits (and thereby make farming impossible) then they likely need to spread out their blob.


1) I will close large plexes in a minute.

2) We will make you receive so many notifications, you will get 0 information.

You want to encourage me to stay and not leave a Bantam alt there to farm? Give me back my spawns. You want to encourage me to stay AND fight? Break Loki links in novice plexes. After the enemy already warped in 5 times more ships than I have in the plex, make gate say: "i aint configured to handle additional ships for minmatar militia".
People will blob, people will farm, people will be looking for "solo pvp against frigs" in their Lokis and Tengus - you can choose to fight them, or post on forums. X
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#96 - 2013-01-18 14:48:10 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:

1) I will close large plexes in a minute.

2) We will make you receive so many notifications, you will get 0 information.



1) Good point. The three minutes couldn't be repeating. it could alternate though. Perhaps one time its three minutes then it just rolls back to zero if you warp off when an enemy is on grid.

2) Not so. There are not that many plexes open. But if that became the problem then we could ask for a filter such that we see only plex activity within x jumps.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#97 - 2013-01-18 14:58:21 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:

1) I will close large plexes in a minute.

2) We will make you receive so many notifications, you will get 0 information.



1) Good point. The three minutes couldn't be repeating. it could alternate though. Perhaps one time its three minutes then it just rolls back to zero if you warp off when an enemy is on grid.

2) Not so. There are not that many plexes open. But if that became the problem then we could ask for a filter such that we see only plex activity within x jumps.


What you fail to see is that farming is not encouraged by game mechanics. It is encourage by you, and people like you who would rather spend their "precious" time on posting, than fighting for their chosen militia. And people like meditril, or whatever, the lead shitposter of triad. His time is so valuable, farming isk AND having pvp fights is out of question. Farming for 15 minutes, fighting for 45, logging off is out of question. Chatting on TS for 2 hours while blobbing around, scaring away 99% of targets is perfectly acceptable.

In all 4 militias: less than 150 systems, more than 150 pilots 90% of the time. One pilot can defend multiple systems, theoretically there should be almost no farming. Do you need to fix mechanics or fix people?
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#98 - 2013-01-18 15:11:06 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:

1) I will close large plexes in a minute.

2) We will make you receive so many notifications, you will get 0 information.



1) Good point. The three minutes couldn't be repeating. it could alternate though. Perhaps one time its three minutes then it just rolls back to zero if you warp off when an enemy is on grid.

2) Not so. There are not that many plexes open. But if that became the problem then we could ask for a filter such that we see only plex activity within x jumps.


What you fail to see is that farming is not encouraged by game mechanics. It is encourage by you, and people like you who would rather spend their "precious" time on posting, than fighting for their chosen militia. And people like meditril, or whatever, the lead shitposter of triad. His time is so valuable, farming isk AND having pvp fights is out of question. Farming for 15 minutes, fighting for 45, logging off is out of question. Chatting on TS for 2 hours while blobbing around, scaring away 99% of targets is perfectly acceptable.

In all 4 militias: less than 150 systems, more than 150 pilots 90% of the time. One pilot can defend multiple systems, theoretically there should be almost no farming. Do you need to fix mechanics or fix people?


Actually what you and sasawong do is encouraged by the mechanics. Multibox alts everywhere and if you get chased out then just hide in another system and keep running plexes. You are doing it right under the current mechanics but that does not sound fun to many. That is why - as you correctly point out - not many people care to do this activity.

You can keep telling everyone do this activity but if they don't think its fun they wont. People would rather pvp or even just talk to friends on comms.

But anyway. Thanks for your first post where you actually address issues with what I propose. I think the issues you raise were adequately addressed. What do you think?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#99 - 2013-01-18 15:13:23 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
...Its really that simple. If a militia is immediately notified and still can't cover the distance in 3 minutes to chase out rabbits (and thereby make farming impossible) then they likely need to spread out their blob.

Cearain tried convincing me with the exact same thing and it is still erroneous to say the least. Chasing rabbits is all well and good, but without a shotgun and/or snares the chase is all you will ever get until you collapse from exhaustion and starvation.

A notification system does not solve the problem, all it does is give the hunter a mountainbike so he doesn't deflate as quickly and saves him some time .. the farming issue itself will remain. It is needed for those reason, but don't think it will be the magic bullet.
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
...In all 4 militias: less than 150 systems, more than 150 pilots 90% of the time. One pilot can defend multiple systems, theoretically there should be almost no farming. Do you need to fix mechanics or fix people?

And when 125 of the 150 people are in actuality farming the snot out of it you are left with a couple of dusin people to Benny Hill them around .. besides, it is easier to sort mechanics than people .. we've been trying the latter for millennia and we are all still twats when all is said and done.

Chasing farmers is loosing proposition as long as they are not penalized for running .. Auto-run timers and appropriate NPC's .. push the bastards into the missions where they can not rock the boat.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#100 - 2013-01-18 17:16:32 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Chasing farmers is loosing proposition as long as they are not penalized for running .. Auto-run timers and appropriate NPC's .. .
Yup.