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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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Tover Chris
Suicide Kings
#1201 - 2013-01-17 17:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tover Chris
edit: stupid forum ate my post, AND MY DRAFT.

No it can't be done at once, but iterate changes:

UI, permissions, security, T3, modularization


span it over 2 years. who cares.

make the UI like PI
fix permissions so people can secure their ****
let T3's refit
make a modular POS


It's not rocket science, and if you can build an FPS from the ground up you can fix crap code. Stop making excuses.
T3mp3s7
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1202 - 2013-01-17 17:09:17 UTC  |  Edited by: T3mp3s7
Hey CCP.

The ideas and concepts for the new POS system seemed really innovative and interesting.

As most of us bittervets know that nothing is ever easy in Eve, and reprogramming a very old system like the POS's is a massive undertaking.

But we would like to appeal to you that while perhaps a small population of Eve Players are directly interfacing with POS's is small. The people it affects is much larger.

POS's are massive logistics platforms, From jump bridges, reaction farms, and so much more. I'd urge you to please keep working on this project, we are patient players (eve if we whine all the time) and are not scared to hear it'll be another year. But please keep moving forward on this project.

See you all at Fanfest! <3

EDIT: OH YAY LOOK ABOVE ME :3
Ayeson
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#1203 - 2013-01-17 17:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeson
CCP Gargant wrote:
THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE.


It seems we have some confusion, currently, I'm pissed off that CCP and Unifex currently believe POSes do not affect anyone besides managers, that is wrong, 100% wrong, and is evidenced by this thread. How do you think we feel being treated like second class players? Soundwave himself was apparently was living in a WH, and HE wasn't affected by our old decrepit POS System? I call bullshit.

Then, tell me WHY FIXING your INADEQUATE system will kill your company. If anything, It's another opportunity to show that you listen to your playerbase, and deliver what people want. It DOESN'T need to happen tomorrow. It DOESN'T need to happen in may, but it NEEDS to happen, and you NEED to tell us you understand that, and you're working on it. Not that CCP NEVER promised us anything, that was the worst possible thing that you could've said. Seriously.

So we're clear, caps mean emphasis not yelling, I would prefer not to disappear in Iceland

I ♥ the orthrus
Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1204 - 2013-01-17 17:09:28 UTC
Fix the Darn things!

By the size of this post one would think that a small portion of the community = 90%ish
Prime FLux
Perkone
Caldari State
#1205 - 2013-01-17 17:09:35 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:


oh and corp roles, that system is so broken its not funny

QFT!
IrJosy
Club 1621
#1206 - 2013-01-17 17:09:59 UTC
Fire unifex! Fix these POS!
Prootje
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1207 - 2013-01-17 17:10:09 UTC
If CCP wanted to know what people were thinking about the modular POS revamp Idea, I think this thread is a success.
Qaldramas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1208 - 2013-01-17 17:10:11 UTC
Thanks CCP Gargant for the reply. You make a good point - a POS fox would take time. I can respect that and I apologize if this thread looks like - or has turned in to - "Give us new POSes RIGHT NAOUGH!"

My concern is the part the Two Step quoted and that forms the title for this thread - that we're a group that's small so don't worry about us.

Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”. (page 37)

I'm hoping that this was just a misunderstanding of some sort - the person taking minutes summarized things in an unintentional abrasive way or something like that. I'd like to see Unifex post to say what he meant here. This thread is to show that we are not a small group and it is worth devoting time to this. If it takes a long time to fix, that's understandable - I hear the POS code is a real mess. But do not write it off as unimportant.
DonoAE
Doomheim
#1209 - 2013-01-17 17:10:18 UTC
Fix POS's please
Drosal Inkunen
Spreadsheeters
#1210 - 2013-01-17 17:10:33 UTC
Tobias Checkov wrote:
Did anyone ever play Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald?
[center]*A Secret Base!*


This idea greatly amuses me. What would the "secret base" be used for in Eve though? Decorating?
Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#1211 - 2013-01-17 17:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nair Alderau
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

Thank you for stepping in here, it is appreciated.


CCP Gargant wrote:
From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

This is a bit weird. I don't think you could start the work on (new) modular POSes and have them work together with existing POSes... but that would need to be asked to the coders/developers in charge.

Overall, I somewhat dislike the approach of ... we need a theme... If you agree POSes need work... why do you just have to fit them in a theme of some sort? Just decide what your goal is and start working to get an initial base (mustn't be feature complete, just ready and useful and ready to be expanded upon - coexisting with the current POS system for a while).


CCP Gargant wrote:
From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

Okay, the currrent CCP position seems to be: "we will iterate on the current POS system and make it less painful". That is good. But in the long run, the promise of a truly modular, scalable POS system (including docking, multiple POSes on one grid, POSes not only at moons) seems incompatible with the current POS system. If you say that you can work toward that goal by just iterating on the current POS code... okay. I am sceptical, but willing to see how this goes. But the complete revamp, with old and new system coexisting for awhile, was more convincing to me. I thought that had a better chance of actually getting there.


CCP Gargant wrote:
I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.

Read and understood. Also appreciated.
Just spread the word in Reykjavik that POSes effect not only a small portion of the community, but most of us. This is probably the only development decision that could receive unanimous consent from empire to null and deep into wspace. From industrialists to PvP corporations. As long as CCP knows that...
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#1212 - 2013-01-17 17:10:57 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.


Respectfully (because you are a giant and can crush me), I think you misinterpreted my post.

What I said was:
1) CCP has decided to not do modular POSes all at once
2) CCP has not decided what they will be working on this Summer
3) CCP did say that modular POSes would matter for only a small population of players

What I am trying to do with my blog post and this thread is demonstrate to CCP that #3 is wrong, and that POSes should be a part of the summer expansion (#2).

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Artcursis
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1213 - 2013-01-17 17:11:08 UTC
Fix POS's please
Longinius Spear
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
#1214 - 2013-01-17 17:11:36 UTC
I'm a CEO of a small WH corp. POS security is my biggest hang up to inviting more people into my corp.

I'm also a CO-Host for the one and only WH pod cast.

I could care less about modular POSes. Leave the system alone in my opinion but at least toss us a bone and make some sort of security upgrade.

At the very least add some more divisions.

Read more of my ramblings on my blog www.invadingyourhole.blogspot.com
Donasha
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1215 - 2013-01-17 17:11:45 UTC
Fix POS's please
Caesar Desilva
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1216 - 2013-01-17 17:12:11 UTC
+1
Jakob Anedalle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1217 - 2013-01-17 17:12:14 UTC
I am a newish (less than 1 year) player and I want a POS. It can be tiny - like an "Extra Small." Maybe it can only dock a few ships, has a "Sole Proprietor" sized industrial module with five manufacturing slots and one research slot. Maybe the shields are so small that a single Battleship could put it into reinforced in an hour. But give me a place to start, a place to try things out, so later I can earn my way up to a "real" POS. Some way so that a solo or small group of new players don't have to sign up for somebody else's huge corporation and become cogs just to learn the ropes.

Trying out all the things to do here in Eve - it's quite a checklist. So I made a blog Jakob's Eve Checklist
Deadcode Analord
Doomheim
#1218 - 2013-01-17 17:12:49 UTC
I also want to follow up my earlier post and reply to CCP Gargant by saying I do have a lot of faith in Unifex. She is finally speaking in terms of instigators/enablers. I'm not quite the bittervet that some others on the thread are who are wary of "Soon".

Our community's question is not of timeframe as you have stated, we understand it's just too big to move all at once.

But our biggest fear is that we will see no movement at all this year on it. Please prove that false.
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
#1219 - 2013-01-17 17:13:18 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
CCP Gargant wrote:


Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

We don't ask that it happen all at once. We just want it started. NOW. No more delays. We'll gratefully accept it when it's done (even if done in pieces) - IF we're not first alienated by excessive delays in commencing.

Sooner begun, sooner finished.
Carry on.

QFT

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1220 - 2013-01-17 17:13:49 UTC
CCP should not consider POS in the realm of too large to do, or a Jesus feature, or something that needs to be spanned over 2 years. POS are something every player can engage in the use of, regardless of SEC status of their chosen home.

Give players their own little slice of EVE. Promote ownership, this hits all the magic marketing areas. Players that have ownership in something are far more likely to stay with the game. No one wants to use POS right now unless they have to, the interface is godawful, the benefits almost non-existent, and the ability to use it for anything that isn't better served elsewhere very limited.

If Crimewatch can get a team dedicated to it, I see no reason POS shouldn't.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.