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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Kitsune Jones
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1061 - 2013-01-13 11:29:56 UTC
+1 on the "Don't touch the Harbinger's tank" list. The Harbinger's a poster child for BC balance as it is right now: tough but not invincible, decently-gunned but with a big sig to make it especially vulnerable to big guns. I very much doubt that at any point ever in Eve history have the words, "Oh god they're flying Harbingers, we're screwed." been uttered.



Giving the Prophecy a weird drone bandwidth number like 75 is not doing it any favors. What is anyone supposed to do with that? Three heavies is just laughable. One heavy and four mediums? Two heavies and three lights? An Arbitrator flying five mediums is going to have just about equivalent firepower to a Prophecy, with the added bonuses of being smaller, faster, and having ewar bonuses. If you're going to make a ship that's big and slow and depends on drones to do anything, go whole hog and give it the full 125. Even then, the only reason most people would fly that instead of just getting a Dominix is if they have some big Amarr fetish.



I don't think anyone can really say that they weren't expecting an eventual Drake tank nerf, though that along with the heavy missile nerf may wind up dumping the ship in the trashbin in the minds of many pilots. Drakes were never paragons of damage, just immense survivability. If the survivability is getting yanked, they really deserve a damage boost to compensate, at least enough to bring them back to pre-heavy missle nerf areas.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1062 - 2013-01-13 11:47:40 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Because drone bay itself is effectively a slot (or several) till its size reaches a certain point.

Because drone ships have to give up half there DPS to gain the effects of 1 ewar module using drones?

How about you stick to your drone DPS and gain ewar effects via regular modules, like the rest of us? My hi-slots don't allow me to gain EW effects at all, so what?

Simply put, drones in your case replace guns - so why wonder that you have less turret hardpoints?

i know why i have less turret hardpoints, less slot lay out is the question.
And if drones are supposed to be used only for damage then where is the "versatility" that they are supposed to have?

Count on your fingers how many utility highs are left on a typical turret ship after placing all the guns. Guns require slots, that's why you have less highs.

Versatility in your case is an option to do X at timestamp/situation Y. It doesn't mean you have to use X all the time.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1063 - 2013-01-13 12:38:52 UTC
Thing is a Drone is not a turret ship it is a drone ship, it has upgrades that span all 3 wracks, destroyable damage, and most every one has a split weapon system.

and every ship has the ability to do X at timestamp/situation Y, so that arguement is invalad.

BTW every minmatar turret ship has at least 1 utility high slot, and every frigate turret ship has a utility high slot.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#1064 - 2013-01-13 13:20:13 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I apologize for my attitude, but it is within reason:


I am rather upset that my favorite ship the Hurricane is being nerfed into uselessness. It was balanced and fine the way it was there was no need or reason to even touch it buff or nerf wise, it was a perfect ship.

And now as if if nerfing its PG and CPU was not enough (which basically crippled it), your throwing it off the cliff and into the space Junk yard by taking its shields, its armor, its hull and one of its high slots.

I mean really, enough is enough. Stop, put it back the way it was and leave it alone, instead of nerfing the ONLY balanced and worthwhile BC's (The Cane The Myrm, and the Drake) why dont you buff the others to put them in line with them? I mean seriously.

Breaking **** is not fixing ****. Its the exact opposite.

If you continue along this line of development you should refund the skillpoints player spent months and years putting into the Cane. Some people focused specifically on this ship and it is the only one they fly for pvp. By nerfing it like you continue to do you are basically forcing a player to retrain for months in order to get into a ship that is as effective as the one they have already trained for.

For example, I now fly battlships, simply because BC's are no longer worth my time with all the nerfs your giving them and I dont feel like retraining for months in order to "specialize" the others like I was in the cane.

If the above is out of the question, then I seriously suggest you add a function to EvE which allows the player to reset their skill points or to reallocate them. That way when you do stupid **** like this, your decisions do not cripple the player.


Back to reality

If proposed changes go live Hurricane will:

Have a little more EHP shield tanked
Have a lot more EHP armor tanked
Mass addition is gonna "nerf" your speed when mwd fit about ~20m/s, afterburner fit ~5m/s
You loose one neut (and almost all other bc dont even have utility high slots anymore)

As for PG nerf that happened in december you can still fit all the ac setups without a problem, and for arty fits you might actually need to train AWU4-5 or get an implant.

Hurricane is still class above all other BC, especially now when Drake is nerfed.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1065 - 2013-01-13 13:31:07 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
BTW every minmatar turret ship has at least 1 utility high slot, and every frigate turret ship has a utility high slot.


So I take it Tornado and Maelstrom don't exist (and technically Typhoon, as it has split bonuses)? And seemingly, neither do Incursus, Merlin and Tormentor :p
Mund Richard
#1066 - 2013-01-13 13:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Hurricane is still class above all other BC, especially now when Drake is nerfed.

The Drake ain't dead yet as well.
It still has the second highest base HP to it's primary tank (after the Prophecy), it still has it's 5% resist bonus (just like the Prophecy), and has 6 midslots which is unlike any BC (though beaten by the Prophecy's 7 lows)... Heck, even 5 slots are rare (Ferox, Myrm, Cyclone).
And the only other missile BC has only 5 bonused launchers.

What it did get nerfed by, is mainly the buff it didn't get to the launchers, and the loss of it's utility high.

Right now the ones still having utility highs are the Prophecy, both Minnie ships (Cyclone at two), and if you are counting the Myrm's full rack of unbonused guns (I wouldn't, or else I'd fly a Prophecy if armor tanking).

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Naomi Anthar
#1067 - 2013-01-13 13:38:12 UTC
Hey i'm just begginer, but...


Why set prophecy bandwitch to 75 ? It's not huge droneship it's abomination. I know its cool and easy to just set numbers like 25, 50,75,100. But when you actually think about this bandwitch it's terribad. Why? Because if you want to max damage out of this hull you will be forced to send some gimmick squads of : 2x heavy / 2xmedium/1x small. 3 types of drones all with diffrent speed, signature, tracking etc. It's awful idea. So you can also send something like 1 heavy and 4 mediums(i dont see it as better but just example). Now you are looking at it and you see that it actually does only have 1 heavy over 1 medium drone advantage VS Arbitrator.

Ok my english sucks so i will go straight to the point. I don't ask 125 bandwitch , but 80 bandwitch is absolutely ok. Why ?
It let's you send 2 heavy and 3 medium drones and that is reasonable damage advantage over Amarr Arbitrator. Think about it.
Mund Richard
#1068 - 2013-01-13 13:43:01 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
2x heavy / 2xmedium/1x small. 3 types of drones all with diffrent speed, signature, tracking etc. It's awful idea. So you can also send something like 1 heavy and 4 mediums(i dont see it as better but just example). Now you are looking at it and you see that it actually does only have 1 heavy over 1 medium drone advantage VS Arbitrator.

Or keep the 50 bandwidth, and get more than +10%/level to the drone damage instead?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#1069 - 2013-01-13 13:47:12 UTC
WTF DID YOU DO TO MY HARBINGER!!!!!! it was fine the way it was, if anything it should have gotten a slight boost to fittings
Naomi Anthar
#1070 - 2013-01-13 13:57:28 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
2x heavy / 2xmedium/1x small. 3 types of drones all with diffrent speed, signature, tracking etc. It's awful idea. So you can also send something like 1 heavy and 4 mediums(i dont see it as better but just example). Now you are looking at it and you see that it actually does only have 1 heavy over 1 medium drone advantage VS Arbitrator.

Or keep the 50 bandwidth, and get more than +10%/level to the drone damage instead?

So it actually outperforms every single pre carrier drone ship when fighting cruisers , destroyers and frigates ? I like but not gonna to happen ;).
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#1071 - 2013-01-13 14:05:41 UTC
Kaz Mafaele wrote:
Its really awesome to see someone responding on here in a fairly comprehensive way thank you for doing that. Any chance you could comment on a couple things.

1. Why the new expectation for minmatar pilots its to train 3-4 weapon systems in order to be able to effectively fly their ships (a/c, arty, missiles and now drones with cyclone really needing that drone bandwith to do damage) as a player with a somewhat low amount of skill points it kills me to try to figure out when i am going to be able to train missiles and drones up properly especially since i don't think ill be feeling any desire to fly my Hurricane anymore after its second nerf in a matter of months. Leaving me with ONLY a missile/drone boat.

2. It feels like you are trying to take away some of minmatar flexibility with these changes by adding more armor and less speed to some of the hulls and more shields to others taking away their ability to be effective with either tank.


And another reality check

1. All races have to train guns (long and short range ones), drones and missiles. And when you consider how much easier Minmatar ships are to fit (witch you should) Minmatar are actually the easiest race to train for new players. Not to mention you dont need Controlled Bursts at all, and you can skip Sharpshooter unless you really want to use arty, you dont need to rush lvl 5 capacitor skills etc.

2. 300,000 mass addition will slow you ~20m/s with mwd when you shield tank. If you armor tank not even that much. And afterburner ~5m/s reduction. And Hurricane will have bigger tank if those changes go live, so it will actually get buffed not nerfed.






NinjaStyle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1072 - 2013-01-13 14:31:12 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Just to point out one more time how much Harbinger is nerfed, and that the"nerfed" Hurricane is the same as before, considering the nerfs to other hulls even better than before.

Fitting both ships with just the guns the Harbinger is left with 279 CPU and 533 PG, Hurricane has 387 CPU and 575 PG left. That puts the "nerfed" Hurricane 108 CPU and 42 PG above the Harbinger to spend on same number of slots. And this is considering AWU 5.

Hurricane is considerably faster than Harbinger, having more than 200m/s advantage over it when both are shield tanked and MWD fit. Not to mention much better acceleration and agility. Hurricane is still the fastest BC (the new Cyclone is ~20m/s faster when both are MWD fitted.).

Too add even more salt to the wound now Hurricane even has better tank, getting actually buffed overall in the tanking department while the Harbinger was hit hard, especially the shield. Now since we cant really talk about armor tanked setups (since Harbinger cant even fit a 1600 plate, propulsion and guns without and implant, and just one heat sink wound push it over the limit), before this Harbinger had a healthy 3k more EHP than Hurricane, and that was ok considering it is a much slower ship, and that Harbinger pilot needed implants and AWU5 to actually fit such a tank while Hurricane pilots could get it with AWU3 and still some PG to spare. Now shield tanked canes have more EHP and are still much faster.

And when we add capacitor problems in the picture it just gets better. To be fair Harbinger has much better damage projection over 10 kilometers thanks to scorch ammo and will considerably outdamage the Hurricane at those distances, but considering its speed it cant really kite anything and its tracking is so terrible that anything that comes closer to those 10 kilometers probably wont get hit at all. So in a nutshell Hurricane has better tank, more speed, incredibly easier fitting and (depending on situation) comparable damage.

Harbinger needs to have some fitting options without implants, the nerfs are too much. It should not be a fast ship, it would be op with scorch, but it at least needs a good tank. And you ppl could really try and fix the Hurricane, one neut less does not really make a difference, especially now when most other battlecruisers lost their utility slots as well, and it even got a better tank. It is now even better than before, with nerfs to the drake the cane is now the by far the best battlecruiser, its not even debatable anymore.


Don't let this post jump out and bite anybody since its full of fact


Wow I knew the harb had it hard and it was insanely hard to fit back in the day but I didn't know it was this bad... no wonder it's been pointless to even try....

Fozzie: I realy gotta ask. Are the original designs for the Harb realy correct? Or could this actually be intended? if so huh? what?

Thanks to writing this up Grath.
Mund Richard
#1073 - 2013-01-13 14:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Naomi Anthar wrote:
So it actually outperforms every single pre carrier drone ship when fighting cruisers , destroyers and frigates ? I like but not gonna to happen ;).

My Domi will still 1 or 2-shot incoming frigs with it's 5 sentries omnilinked and DDA-d, while the Myrm would have only two.

So no, not quite outperform, only at point-blank range.
And at that range, a battleship SHOULD be outperformed by it's smaller counterparts (unless fitting smartbombs, which is a reaaally smart choice while your drones are outRoll).

And on BS level, the 6 bonused Large hybrids and 5 sentries/heavies...
Yea, won't fear for the Domi, even if it will have less drone damage bonus from hull, than a Myrm.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1074 - 2013-01-13 14:56:42 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Thing is a Drone is not a turret ship it is a drone ship, it has upgrades that span all 3 wracks, destroyable damage, and most every one has a split weapon system.

and every ship has the ability to do X at timestamp/situation Y, so that arguement is invalad.

Yeah, my 25m3 worth of drones surely provide me a bunch of options.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Naomi Anthar
#1075 - 2013-01-13 15:01:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
Mund Richard wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
So it actually outperforms every single pre carrier drone ship when fighting cruisers , destroyers and frigates ? I like but not gonna to happen ;).

My Domi will still 1 or 2-shot incoming frigs with it's 5 sentries omnilinked and DDA-d, while the Myrm would have only two.

So no, not quite outperform, only at point-blank range.
And at that range, a battleship SHOULD be outperformed by it's smaller counterparts (unless fitting smartbombs, which is a reaaally smart choice while your drones are outRoll).

And on BS level, the 6 bonused Large hybrids and 5 sentries/heavies...
Yea, won't fear for the Domi, even if it will have less drone damage bonus from hull, than a Myrm.


"My Domi will still 1 or 2-shot incoming frigs with it's 5 sentries omnilinked and DDA-d, while the Myrm would have only two." Exactly incoming. You think it's all pve. When it's not and so called pvp -orbiting frigates laugh at your omnilinks and sentries.
Let's say prophecy would have 20% per level to damage on all drones. Now it's light drones deal about same damage as medium but are faster and got better tracking etc. So yeah at this point you would have not only to start fear about your domi, but honestly domi would be subpar as pvp drone ship. On top of that prophecy crazy 7 low/4 mid layout cominbed with ship resistance bonus would make it TOUGHER than dominix. Yeah i got it right. Maybe not EHP but sure in fleet with remote reps.

Don't get me wrong i love prophecy hull, i'm big amarr fan but giving ideas out of ... back ;) is not good idea. I have strong feeling that devs ignore some posts with crazy unreal/overpowered ideas, while they pay attention to those that are more realistic in terms of ship balance.

Edit : i just talk about pvp as i don't see anyone pick prophecy as hull for pve. After changes of course.
Edit2: Was talking about small drones but it applies to medium drones too etc.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1076 - 2013-01-13 15:09:04 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Thing is a Drone is not a turret ship it is a drone ship, it has upgrades that span all 3 wracks, destroyable damage, and most every one has a split weapon system.

and every ship has the ability to do X at timestamp/situation Y, so that arguement is invalad.

Yeah, my 25m3 worth of drones surely provide me a bunch of options.

Does it not? Many ships got drone bays added with the cruiser tieracide and others were expanded they could be removed and then you would go back to standard options, but with it you have many more options and don't have to sacrifice your primary DPS to do so.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1077 - 2013-01-13 15:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Thing is a Drone is not a turret ship it is a drone ship, it has upgrades that span all 3 wracks, destroyable damage, and most every one has a split weapon system.

and every ship has the ability to do X at timestamp/situation Y, so that arguement is invalad.

Yeah, my 25m3 worth of drones surely provide me a bunch of options.

Does it not? Many ships got drone bays added with the cruiser tieracide and others were expanded they could be removed and then you would go back to standard options, but with it you have many more options and don't have to sacrifice your primary DPS to do so.

Specialized drone vessels have bigger drone bays and thus bigger versatility in the sense I stated above. I don't quite get your general idea - you think a ship with extra dronespace should at the same time also have normal number of slots? Like eating a cake and having it?

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1078 - 2013-01-13 15:37:40 UTC
Yes but to use that versatility they must give up a large portion of there DPS

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1079 - 2013-01-13 15:52:45 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Yes but to use that versatility they must give up a large portion of there DPS


Dedicated drone ships are -1 slot in comparison to ships of similar class/"tier". This is how it's more or less been for a very very long time. No amount of pointless arguing is going to get this changed...

Myrmidon and proph will be -1 slot compared to the rest. No point in continuing that specific line of discussion.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1080 - 2013-01-13 16:24:45 UTC
Why not? Having one less slot makes no sense and nobody has ever come up with any kind of proper explanation why it should be kept so.

"it's always been like that" is not an argument.

If any other non-combat drones besides dishonour drones would make any sense, the slot/versatility argument would make sense.

But now it's about giving up 500 dps for 1/6th of a web, except that the "webs" are too slow to even catch their target. This is why I suggest expanding the drone bonus to all drones to make them viable choices on drone ships.


.