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Capsuleers and Their "Crews"

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Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
#221 - 2012-12-04 04:04:17 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
LOL56 wrote:
I ran some numbers and i would peg my personal fleet at a strength (equating ships based on role and cost and not name) at approximately that of France or Italy giving me some 35000ish employes. At 200 ISK per person per year, this amounts to a piddly 7 million in wages per year. For the record I own 2 capitals, ~25 significant sub capitals and ~20 insignificant sub-capitals (over/under 50 mil in hull cost).


Likely will need to add about 50% of non-ship crew to your staff too. Think of the people who sit at dock and take care of your business there for you. Everything from longshoreman to accountants.


I was thinking along these same lines as well. If you consider every ship we own, every hanger we have items in, and then the corporate HQ and stations.... Even small corporations probably have tens of thousands of employees.

EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it

Rutger Gist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#222 - 2012-12-15 12:32:39 UTC
This is one of the more interesting topics I've read (and yes I did read every response). Great discussion and insights and even a Dev response as well.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#223 - 2012-12-15 13:34:51 UTC
Probably, not all ships are ready to fly at any given moment, and so most of them will be unmanned. And probably many crew members would work on several ships (after all, the pod pilot can only be in one of them at any given time). So probably we could halve those numbers, more or less, but it still makes an impressive amount of crew members and staff.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Cynthia Gallente
Phoenix Foundry
#224 - 2012-12-15 18:10:00 UTC
Crews?

I never even for a moment consider that there could be a crew in any of my ships.

From what I understand the entire machine is being run by me, from my pod.
I believe the fiction backs this up.

The only time I've EVER seen a crew is in the films "Clear Skies" which, if you haven't seen them , go. www.clearskiesthemovie.com
But these films were created to placate the planetsiders, to make space travel and how the ships operate more undertandable to them.

Every function of my ship is controlled either autonomously or by me.
To think that there's a crew who has NOTHING BETTER TO DO than to just chill on my ship is a bit laughable.
From the smallest pod to the biggest Titan, everything is controlled by one capsuleer.

Post with your lick™

Cynthia Gallente
Phoenix Foundry
#225 - 2012-12-15 18:11:58 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
Ships have crews, even capsuleer ships. The capsule allows for the replacement of bridge and command crews and, to a lesser extent, allows for the reduction of some other "redundant" crew members.

As for why empires "train" capsuleers for free, remember two things:
1) Only one school for each empire is a military academy; the other two schools are typical universities that are large and prestigious enough to offer pod pilot programs. Someone, somewhere is paying for it and it's probably not the governments of the empires themselves.
2) Players are only a portion of the capsuleers in the backstory. At least some number of capsuleers do continue to work for the empires directly.

this blows a lot of what I said out of the water. . . Big smile

Post with your lick™

Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#226 - 2012-12-15 20:05:35 UTC
Hmm... the crew guidelines don't say anything about industrial ships. I'd imagine the transports and haulers wouldn't need a particularly large crew, but... Mining Barges? That would probably be a very crew intensive ship as strip mining is pretty labor intensive work.

Hulkaggeddon probably kills a lot of 'little' people.

Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#227 - 2012-12-15 20:29:33 UTC
I've always assumed that barges and industrials are comparable to other ships of the same (bracket/class) size, mostly cruisers iirc, as they were not a seperate entry in that table. Crew requirements would depend on fittings, I can imagine that strip miners and salvage modules require more crew than cargo extenders and armor plates.

I imagine freighters are like carriers, but because they lack modules, they probably fly around with what would be a skeleton crew for carriers (700-1500, or 350-700 for capsuleer versions).
Mirima Thurander
#228 - 2012-12-16 02:07:55 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
I've always assumed that barges and industrials are comparable to other ships of the same (bracket/class) size, mostly cruisers iirc, as they were not a seperate entry in that table. Crew requirements would depend on fittings, I can imagine that strip miners and salvage modules require more crew than cargo extenders and armor plates.

I imagine freighters are like carriers, but because they lack modules, they probably fly around with what would be a skeleton crew for carriers (700-1500, or 350-700 for capsuleer versions).



Freighters are mostly empty space, I'm betting they could get by with nothing more than the max crew of a destroyer, depending on what there hauling.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.

Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#229 - 2012-12-16 07:49:18 UTC
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines

I know this is CCP posting on crew size. but part of me wonders if its a bit small. I don't doubt the minimum ship complement size, but the maximum. Considering that a aircraft carrier in modern times about 300-400 meters long has a standard complement of 4000 people. The Idea that a carrier at least 10 times larger can only support about 3 times as many people seems not to quite add up. Particularly since on the Carrier description (the Amarr archon at least) it does note its purpose as 'troop transport.' 18,000 people at most just seems a little low...

But consider this a nerds nitpicking and not really meaningful at all.
Nofearion
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#230 - 2012-12-16 18:33:45 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines

I know this is CCP posting on crew size. but part of me wonders if its a bit small. I don't doubt the minimum ship complement size, but the maximum. Considering that a aircraft carrier in modern times about 300-400 meters long has a standard complement of 4000 people. The Idea that a carrier at least 10 times larger can only support about 3 times as many people seems not to quite add up. Particularly since on the Carrier description (the Amarr archon at least) it does note its purpose as 'troop transport.' 18,000 people at most just seems a little low...

But consider this a nerds nitpicking and not really meaningful at all.



thanks for the link, I did not know about it.
Here is some semi educated speculation from a former USN sailor. The crew explanation for Minimum compliment seems to be correct depending on the automation or needs of the ship.
Keep in mind that the USS Enterprise (just Retired) had an active crew of about 1800, fighter wings and crew made up the rest of the compliment taking the crew on board to over 3000. In real world to EVE comparison would put that class of carrier as a super carrier much like the Nyx.
another comparison CGN 41 USS Arkansas had and active crew compliment of around 350 but we could run the ship with about 80. Real life to EVE comparison would be a Ferox or Cyclone
Kanta Kansene
Agentes in rebus
#231 - 2012-12-17 03:50:26 UTC
Nofearion wrote:
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines

I know this is CCP posting on crew size. but part of me wonders if its a bit small. I don't doubt the minimum ship complement size, but the maximum. Considering that a aircraft carrier in modern times about 300-400 meters long has a standard complement of 4000 people. The Idea that a carrier at least 10 times larger can only support about 3 times as many people seems not to quite add up. Particularly since on the Carrier description (the Amarr archon at least) it does note its purpose as 'troop transport.' 18,000 people at most just seems a little low...

But consider this a nerds nitpicking and not really meaningful at all.



thanks for the link, I did not know about it.
Here is some semi educated speculation from a former USN sailor. The crew explanation for Minimum compliment seems to be correct depending on the automation or needs of the ship.
Keep in mind that the USS Enterprise (just Retired) had an active crew of about 1800, fighter wings and crew made up the rest of the compliment taking the crew on board to over 3000. In real world to EVE comparison would put that class of carrier as a super carrier much like the Nyx.
another comparison CGN 41 USS Arkansas had and active crew compliment of around 350 but we could run the ship with about 80. Real life to EVE comparison would be a Ferox or Cyclone


Technically, US CVNs are all supercarriers. Light carriers are used by smaller countries, and escort carriers are no longer used. What kind of bugs me is there isn't really a direct comparison to a submarine in the Eve order of battle...I mean, sure there are force recons, but those don't really have much attack capability, and stealth bombers are more like...stealth bombers. it'd be cool to see something kind of like a cloaky Naga or something go out and make a series of strikes and then fade out and move on to the next area of operation
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#232 - 2012-12-17 15:24:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
I'm a bit ill-at-ease about this crew thing.

Of course non-capsuleers ship have crew, of course capsuleers ships can have crew as well...

But in my vision of the lore, some capsuleers, at least EVE players, doesn't need any crew to use their ship with efficiency. Otherwise, what's the point of being connected to our ships if we can't even be independant of any other living form ?

From EVElopedia, it's clearly said : "The main purpose of a capsule is to allow the capsuleer to command a spaceship with his/her mind, eliminating the need to relay commands to ship crew."

Also, I live in wormholes. When I assemble a ship inside our POS, were does the crew comes from ? Is the whole crew destroyed when a ship explodes ? Did any crew member ever though that this might be a problem ?

I don't want to be disrespectful to CCP Eterne who was kind enough to participate to this conversation, but if you're not even able to explain who is paying / hiring the crew, or the surviviability point I raised above, I will have some troubles to believe you :)

So in my mind capsuleers ships, only them perhaps, have no crew. Or at least it is possible (other than shuttles Roll) with proper equipment.

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Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#233 - 2012-12-17 15:35:14 UTC
There are many things a ship crew can do inside a sip that don't contradict your direct mind control of it. For example, once an impact has hit the structure, they would be the ones to fight the fire and keep it from spreading. Or the ones that would load and unload equipment when you go near an enemy debries and take what you can. Etc.

As for their salaries and such, probably they earn such a little wage that it could be thought of as being part of the amount of money you spend when you buy the ship. And POS are stations, so they do have crews as well, even if they are player owned. So you just take part of the population living in them and take them into your newly assembled ship.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#234 - 2012-12-17 16:13:36 UTC
Thanks for your answer :) But there still are a few things disturbing me :

Sepherim wrote:
For example, once an impact has hit the structure, they would be the ones to fight the fire and keep it from spreading.


Isn't it already the purpose of damage controls and hull/armor hp skills ?

Sepherim wrote:

Or the ones that would load and unload equipment when you go near an enemy debries and take what you can. Etc.


This makes sense, but what about tractor beams simply ? :)

Sepherim wrote:

As for their salaries and such, probably they earn such a little wage that it could be thought of as being part of the amount of money you spend when you buy the ship. And POS are stations, so they do have crews as well, even if they are player owned. So you just take part of the population living in them and take them into your newly assembled ship.


I guess we are reaching the point were like in every other MMO, we can see the gap between gameplay and lore.
I find the presence of crew required for capsuleers ships quite disappointing, but it's probably more logical this way.

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Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2012-12-17 19:52:29 UTC
Well consider all the small tasks that need to be done just to keep the ship maintained. Even in the future, machines break down or have problems. Considering the nature of all the different possibilities for problems, its hard to think you'll have a robot able to do all of it without some input. So its easily conceivable to need crew for this at least. Although for short excursions a capsuleer likely could take control of a sub capital alone and fly it into combat... excessive wear and tear for any prolonged periods of time would likely prove fatal to the ship.

Also, larger ships like battleships or capital ships obviously would need crew because one human mind (no matter how spectacular and augmented) simply could not control all systems with the attention required to be most effective.

Lastly, for the whole building ships out in wormhole where do the crew come from? Well in an in game lore aspect, your character likely knew that they where going to be building and losing ships, so made sure there was enough complements on the station when it was setup. Also any ships you lose would have survivors which could help crew the next ship. Hope they are paid well!
Nofearion
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#236 - 2012-12-17 21:06:17 UTC
I tend to agree Thgil, in some of my writing (not yet published) there is the need for administration crew, and yes robots can stack boxes, but while I am scanning and operating the ship I would rather have a human mind handling contingencies instead of a drone, the more advanced the drone the more likely of becoming self become self aware. and those who can do repairs while in the heat of battle. Keep in mind capsuleer you are immortal, your crew is not. this is stated in several chronicles.
Agromos nulKaedi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2012-12-17 21:13:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Agromos nulKaedi
AlleyKat wrote:
[quote=Silas Vitalia]There were plenty of spaceships left functioning after the original Eve gate collapse, but the entirety of the fledgling settlements were completely cut off from supplies back in our part of the galaxy.

We have TWENTY THOUSAND YEARS here.
Look at the stuff we dig up for science. That's four interesting complete civilizations that have risen from nothing, prospered, then collapsed under their own weight. The Joves are probably not even one of the first ones. Gates can go offline. Might have needed to reestablish them a few times.
There were impressive civilizations before ancient Egypt - but we all know about Egypt because they had a fetish for writing things down on chunks of rock and burying them in sealed chambers in the middle of the desert. We have some vague sense of other civilizations of which minimal evidence exists. That all happened in a fraction of the time that we had since going through the gate.
So the gate shuts down, the ships keep flying, but they fizzle eventually as their civilization collapses.. only to be replaced by a new emerging civilization that rises, reverse-engineers ruined gates, and spreads, only to collapse to decadence and decay, then a new civilization rises, maybe from its ashes, maybe from a new social movement on a dormant colony the previous rise overlooked, it reverse engineers ruined gates and expands, then collapses.. repeat and rinse, then one day you have the situation today.

Also, maybe the capsuleers interact with the crew via drones. And it isn't too strange to think that there are systems to make sure that the capsuleers move around and work their muscles while in the pod. We have that technology today, after all.
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#238 - 2012-12-17 21:19:43 UTC
The good thing about crews is that unlike automated systems they aren't reduced to useless scrap when your ship is hit by the EMP wave of a nuclear weapon.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
Jayai Syndicate
#239 - 2012-12-17 23:06:41 UTC
Quote:
Isn't it already the purpose of damage controls and hull/armor hp skills ?

I thought that those skills was more for things like: shut all doors for fire to die down, reroute oxygen and so on.

Quote:
This makes sense, but what about tractor beams simply ? :)

Some of devs said that items from wrecks are delivered by drones, but we don't see them because our camera drones don't show them to us, same with escape pods for crew.

And crones about crews:
about how disposable crew peeps are clicky
about capsuleer industrial ship crew clicky
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#240 - 2012-12-18 06:44:09 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it already the purpose of damage controls and hull/armor hp skills ?

I thought that those skills was more for things like: shut all doors for fire to die down, reroute oxygen and so on.

Quote:
This makes sense, but what about tractor beams simply ? :)

Some of devs said that items from wrecks are delivered by drones, but we don't see them because our camera drones don't show them to us, same with escape pods for crew.

And crones about crews:
about how disposable crew peeps are clicky
about capsuleer industrial ship crew clicky


I will take a look at your two links :)

Thanks all for these informations, that makes more sense for me now :)

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